Full Series The Rule of 2, Ventress, Sith

Hey Guys, was a long time Star Wars fans whose interest had kind of waned over the past 10 years or so. Went to Star Wars Celebration a few weeks ago and it reignited my love(obsession) with Star Wars.

I just started watching Clone Wars, had disregarded it when in initially came out as a kids' cartoon that I wasn't interested in. But now I'm looking to consume all things Star Wars.

So, I'm curious about Ventress. I'm only a few episodes in, and glancing around online, I see she isn't considered to be a Sith because of the Rule of 2. The Jedi aren't really aware of Darth Sidious at this point, so do they assume that Count Dooku is the Sith Master and that Ventress is the apprentice?

Even if she really isn't the Sith apprentice does it really even matter? Is there even a real difference between her and say Darth Maul when he was the apprentice? Is it just a semantics argument? I see from a story reason why they'd want a few more Dark Jedi, cause maybe limiting it to just Dooku(who they'd be kind of stuck with what they could do storywise since he has to be around for RotS) wouldn't be all that interesting.

Looking forward to seeing some discussion about this.

As an aside, do you guys suggest the Ultimate Order or the Official Star Wars Chronological Order for viewing Clone Wars for the first time?

 

The Jedi do think the Ventress is a Sith Lord. There is not much of a difference between Maul and Ventress other then the fact that one was officially a Darth. Dooku wants to train her to help overthrow Sidious.
Also Welcome!

 

Yes. Darth Maul was 'reborn' and given a new name.

Ventress was not.

There was an old thread, I believe in this topic, but you will probably find more within the TCW main thread. This topic gets brought up *quite* a lot.

 

Yup - she's called a Sith by Ahsoka in Season 5, and a "failed Sith" by Mace Windu in Dark Disciple.

 

Really? I haven't seen it in a long time

 

She was never actually a Sith, but because of the secrecy, they thought she could be. She did fit the description as far as the Jedi knew.

 

If you keep watching, this plays itself out during the show.

No spoilers, guys.

 

Kenobi referred to her as a "failed Sith", it was Windu who didnt like the pairing because of the "failed" part, since she failed at more than being a perfect Sith. They didnt care for her and considered a failure on more than one front. The Council were deceptive and wanted Ventress to remain ignorant of the Jedi plot and aid in the Vos and Ventress team up on Dooku.


She was not a Sith, she was a Dark Jedi and an assassin, Dooku's personal assassin and a servant to the Dark Lords of the Sith. She was tolerated as much as the Inquisitors are.

The Jedi become aware of Darth Sidious in AOTC through Count Dooku , but many of the Council disregarded or even rejected the existence of such a man throughout the following Clone War period. Except for Yoda apparently.

Neither Ahsoka nor the Jedi are a good authority on the workings of the secret Sith Order and who comprised them. They did not know if Maul was either the master or the apprentice during the events of TPM. Darth Maul destroying Jinn, he could've been the master for all they knew. They believed Maul dead by the end of TPM, so they were wrong there, there never seemed an actual full scale investigation to confirm the kill or if Maul was in fact dead. They assumed he was. Its unclear on when exactly they learned Maul came from Dathomir, since Kenobi believed that Maul came from Iridonia. Its unknown how much time elapsed before they showed Kenobi the hologram recording of the resurfaced Darth Maul on Raydonia that he apparently sent directly to the Jedi Temple. Remember Windu also initially wanted or preferred Maul captured to get the bottom of the mystery of the Sith and did not believe Kenobi or Kenobi alone was up the task in doing it. Yoda overrode him and sided with Kenobi on the personal and one on one match where it seemed Kenobi had to finish what he failed to seemingly prove his master rank - but Yoda apparently did not believe he could since he must have seen into the future Ventress aiding him - their combined strength did not prove up the challenge either though. Its unclear how they thought both Vos and Ventress could be a match for Count Dooku who not even Yoda could've got a decisive victory in, after Dooku just defeated and was about to kill Anakin and Kenobi.

They did not believe it possible for a former Jedi to become a Sith or be league with one in during the events of AOTC. Dooku being an actual Sith Lord seemed questionable and the connection to Tyranus was very late in the game . Dooku even being the master or the apprentice was still unknown until the very end of the Clone War, into the ROTS. In SOD Dooku/Maul fighting together, they were close into believing that Dooku was the master and Maul the apprentice based on nothing more than the character's age apparently. Palpatine was also encouraging them in that direction to divert attention from himself, but they did not fully believe it . Kenobi and Windu seem to confirm the belief for a brief time and Maul seems to encouraged the belief they're working together himself for his own end of just making Kenobi all paranoid - but the following events during Dark Disciple had cast doubt on them maintaining it. Since Dooku becoming outed as Tyranus in the Sifo-Dyas plot and the confirmation of an elusive Sith Master known to Ventress and Vos.

The Jedi during Yoda's arc, Windu:

"Which is Count Dooku was Yoda's apprentice, and Count Dooku has fallen to the dark side. All of us have apprenticed to Master Yoda. He cannot be held accountable for Dooku's descent. But they are connected, profoundly. Whoever the Sith Lord is, he may be using this relationship as a direct link to Yoda. Impossible. Are you so sure? If the Sith Lord wanted to attack the Jedi Order from within, Master Yoda would be the perfect choice. I fear we are more vulnerable than we think. "


Yoda comes face to face with Darth Sidious, in the cave of evil that brings them together, but apparently he never tells anyone of his experience he underwent with his arc, that means he never told the Council of Darth Sidious, all the deaths nor the spirit and immortality stuff.

IN ROTS, the Jedi were still seeking the identity of the mysterious Sith Master following the death of Count Dooku, which shortly after by then Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin who believed him to the Sith Lord they were searching for and turned him over to Windu.

 

Well, in the end it's really more like The Highlander... There can be only one.

 

In Legends she was certainly never a Sith, though wrongly declared herself one when meeting Dooku. In canon, the Jedi refer to her as a Sith. I don't see her as a Sith, nor do I see Savage or Vos as Sith. There can only be two.

 

Initially at least the Jedi are looking for a Master and an apprentice and their assumption is that Dooku is actually the Master in that equation, by which logic it follows that a Dark Sider with red sabers following his orders is therefore the apprentice (and she only appears after Maul gets bisected). They were wrong as it turned out of course but the rationale was pretty sound based on what they knew at that point.

 

Sidious broke the rule of two to accomplish his purposes

 

When in Canon? In Canon according to Pablo Hildago Plaguise died years before the phantom menace and Dooku was only working for Sidious in Phantom menace not his actual apprentice

 

When? I don't remember him ever breaking it. In fact, as far as I remember he kept it pretty strictly.

 

Nobody broke any rule, definitely not Sidious.

Ventress is nothing more than an acolyte of Dooku, unlike Maul who was a Sith apprentice fully trained in the ways of the Sith.

While Ventress was probably secretly trained by Dooku in the Sith ways, she's not a Sith nor a Sith apprentice. Only the Sith Master (Sidious) has the authority to knight someone as a Sith Lord and declare him/her his Sith apprentice. Sidious did it with Maul, Tyranus and Vader. Tyranus is the Sith apprentice, so the only thing he can do is train someone in secret in order to try to get rid of his master. Just like Vader planned to do with Luke in TESB. That way, the apprentice becomes the master and the acolyte becomes the apprentice. It's up to the Master to keep his apprentice in check.

But as other have stated, this is all going to be explored further in the series.

 

He broke because he accept that his apprentice had apprentices Although Ventress was not Sith if it followed the code Sith and aspired to become a Sith for which it violates the rule of two

And he also accepted the help of the Inquisitors in his Empire

 

But none of them were Sith, they were just lackeys in his army. He only had one true Sith apprentice.

 

No, he didn't, as seen in the series itself. And none of the acolytes were Sith (apprentices or otherwise).

 

Exactly

 

Ventress was "Apprentice to the Sith Lord Dooku" not just "Acolyte to the Sith Lord Dooku".

http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress

Ky sensed the Force in her, and trained her as a Jedi. But again she was orphaned when her Master was killed, a loss that sent her into a tailspin of rage and the waiting embrace of the dark side. She became Count Dooku’s apprentice, even though the Sith Rule of Two prohibited the existence of another Sith Lord.


Apprentice + Sith = "Illegal Sith Apprentice" - which is why the point is made about "even though Rule of Two prohibits". Hence the Jedi consistently calling her a Sith, or a "failed Sith". The "Authority of the Sith Master" is irrelevant to them - what's relevant is what they observe.

Similarly Once Obi-Wan reports Savage as Maul's apprentice - he will go down in the Jedi records as a Sith, and not just as a Nightbrother. They won't take the approach that Maul is "just an Apprentice, so his apprentice is not a Sith at all".


Palpatine might to take the approach that Savage and Ventress are not Sith at all - but Palpatine's perspective is not the only valid one.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/savage-opress

Transformed into a monstrous warrior by Mother Talzin, Opress became Count Dooku's new assassin and secret Sith apprentice.


Now - one could reasonably say that only an open Sith Apprentice, appointed by the Master, qualifies as a Sith Lord - and that Ventress and Opress were never "Sith Lords". But to say "they were never Sith" seems to me, an overstatement.

 

I wish Dark Disciple had properly clarified this one way or the other.

 

The Jedi are ignorant about what's going on and whatever inference they make is limited by what they know (or in this case, don't know). She was trained in the Sith ways, but she's not a Sith. The Sith, during the series, are Sidious and Tyranus. Tyranus training potential Sith doesn't make them Sith. They can only become Sith once Tyranus becomes the master and deems one of them his apprentice.

There's nothing to clarify. The series already does it. There are only two Sith.

 

Ventress never violated the Rule of Two because she wasn't a Sith. Ventress was a Dark Jedi. I'm not too sure Ventress was Dooku's apprentice though Dooku initially discovered her. Non-Sith dark-siders do not violate the Rule of Two, according to Palpatine as he employed several dark-siders in his own Empire.

 

Such thing doesn't exist. That's an oxymoron.