CT Should Qui-Gon appear in the end of The Return of the Jedi?

Which still makes no sense. Where in the PT is it stated that if Anakin came back to the light and became a force ghost, he would look as he did before he fell?

Too old? Nothing in the OT says that Anakin wasn't an older man when he was a Jedi. If anything, it was a mistake to cast Anakin in the PT as a younger man.

 

Anakin and Obi-wan's ages were never confirmed onscreen in the OT, which is a fact. Lucas did have ideas initially, but they were based on the idea that Anakin and Vader were separate people. The further along Lucas went and combined the two characters, the more it made sense that Anakin be younger than forty when Luke was born, if he's supposed to be sixty when he dies. Having Anakin being in his twenties doesn't hurt anything.

As to the rest, no, it doesn't say in the PT about Anakin being young in appearance if he were to retain his identity after returning. The point, though, is that his soul died when he turned and when he became good again, it is only based on how he appeared when he turned. But healthy and whole.

 

No, I'm not missing anything. Yes, Anakin comes back and kills Palpatine. Nobody is arguing that.

He played the scarred cyborg that Anakin became.

That's how they were when they joined the Force, yes.

No, because that was never how Anakin looked when he died.

There are no healed wounds. That's how he was as a Jedi. Obviously once the prequels got made, his appearance is different which is why it was changed to begin with. He can't show up as something he never was.

Age is never specified, and he never looked like that when he died. And since he cant appear as he was when he died, his appearance became the one he had when he was a good man.

Yes, I've seen the movie too.

No, it didn't. You don't see a cyborg Anakin in the Force. You don't get to make an argument and cherry pick the premises.

What wounds did Obi-Wan have when he joined the Force? I didn't see any.

 

Which isn't how continuity works. Changing something in an older piece of work to better fit your newer works is stupid, plain and simple.

When in the PT did Anakin sport this look?

 

Says who?

There was nothing in the OT that said Anakin dressed like that either as a Jedi, especially since Lucas was for the idea that Luke's outfit was what the Jedi wore and not Obi-wan's robes, which were supposed to be a farmer's outfit. But Anakin's hair and youth was in the PT.

 

Most of the people in this thread, obviously.

 

Which is not the same as some type of authority figure, or a hard and fast rule that says that you cannot do that because its stupid.

 

Then how come there is almost no other movie series that went back and changed details in previous entries to better the newer entries? Clearly, most find it dumb and a waste of time.

 

"Highlander" did it. The original film added the audio effect known as the buzz, which debuted in the television series and was inserted into the first film in 1996, as part of the 10th anniversary release. It remained in place until the Blu-Ray edition. The same thing happened with the second film, which inserted the buzz in the second film for the 1997 Director's Cut release, though it was removed in the 2004 DVD release which wound up changing a lot of effects shots. In fact, the second film was changed quite a bit with the Director's Cut, which altered the plot to remove all references to the Immortals being aliens and instead treated them as time travelers from the far past. In fact, that whole film was changed three times from the original version and you can only get the 2004 version on DVD and Blu-Ray.

True, it doesn't happen too often like that in films, but it has happened outside of Lucasfilm.

 

There's no one way to define continuity, as the history of fiction can atest.

No, your subjective opinion is not a fact.

In Revenge of the Sith, which is where the original footage was taken from. As opposed to, you know, a look that Anakin never had.

Even if true, so what? Since when is quantity or ad populum a relevant factor for the legitimacy to change one's own work? There are a lot of works that were retroactively changed to fit an established continuity. Star Wars is but one example.

That's a baseless claim, an irrelevant argument (or lack thereof) and a fallacy.

 

Wrong. He looked like this, last time I checked. Also, it's not even actual ROTS footage.


Again, when in ROTS did he have the tan Jedi outfit?

 

Yes, same actor, same hair, same face. And yes, it was taken during the shoot of ROTS, between takes.

He didn't. Nobody is talking about the outfit. The outfit is irrelevant, what matters is the identity and appearance. That was Anakin as a Jedi before he fell. Anyone who watches the story from beginning to end recognizes that. That's why it was done to begin with.

 

TheMoldyCrow

It may be an unused costume, or it may have been Sebastian Shaw's robe replaced with Christensen's head only. I don't know any other explanation

 

Except the shot isn't IN ROTS. And again, why would Anakin appear young when he redeemed himself? Why does the Sebastian Shaw ghost now not make sense? And if the ghost is supposed to represent Anakin as a Jedi, then he should have the dark outfit. After all, that's what he looked like before he fell.

It's the latter.

 

The shot doesn't need to have been in ROTS, especially if the ROTJ change is only Christensen's head.

The dark outfit represents his inner demons, and those had left him when he died. He is as pure as the other ghosts with him, and the costume represents that.

 

I wouldn't mind him appearing. The Special Editions should add things that make sense; That little line in RotS about Qui-Gon would pay off. But please, bring back Sebastian Shaw!

 

I'd say no first off one can't remain a force ghost forever. Secondly the appearance of those 3 was for the benefit of Luke, Qui Gon Jinn would be unknown to him and Luke wouldn't appreciate who he was or what he did.

 

Indeed. That was my point.

The wounds thing doesn't make any sense to begin with. They say we see young Anakin because he was full of wounds, however, Anakin's eye scar was still there when he appeared in the re-make of the RotJ scene.

I like Lucas' works, seriously, the only thing I can criticize him is about that RotJ ending scene, the Force ghosts in the re-make scene. It was completely unnecessary, and if you really wanted to do this, at least they could make some sense of it, such as using the CGI to make Anakin (Hayden) look old and remove his eye scar from his Force ghost appearance.

 

Yes, Anakin returns and is a Jedi once more, that was one of the corner stones of the film.

Yeah I don't understand it either.
If you had John Smith, a Jedi. When he was 30, he lost part of his leg and was fitted with a robotic limb. Then he lived on for another 40 years and died an old man.
If he comes back as a Force ghost, should he look old? If yes , should he be missing a leg?
If he is old but has both limbs, yes he never looked quite like that in life as when he had two legs is when he was young.
Why is this wrong?

[/QUOTE]


Lucas gets far too much flak and a lot of it is undeserved or needlessly rude.
But this is an instance that I don't much care for. And my biggest problem is with the cheap and lazy way this was done. Take images of Hayden from a costume fitting and past his head on Shaw's body.
Yes it is just the head on top of Shaw's body.
And on top of that, that Lucas didn't do the common curtesy of telling Hayden about it, he had to hear about it from the media.

If Lucas wanted to do this, do it properly or not at all.
Have Hayden actually do his job and act, he has some skill in that area.
And since Lucas had Hayden right there, it wouldn't be difficult to do this.

And yes I have heard that Lucas did the same with Shaw, that he wasn't told and was filmed and just told to look happy.
But two wrongs don't make a right.

@Alexrd

Except several people in this thread HAVE talked about the outfit.
You yourself have talked about appearance, clothes are a part of a persons appearance isn't it?

But here you say that clothes don't matter so that Shaw's ghost has robes instead of the Vader suit is not an issue. Good that's settled then.

Simple question, did Anakin die as a Jedi in RotJ, yes or no?

He also played Anakin the returned Jedi and died as such.
Scars and having cybernetic limbs doesn't make someone not a Jedi in my view.
Luke had a robotic hand in RotJ and in TFA, does that make him not a Jedi?

And the same is true of Anakin. He died a Jedi, at least that is how I have always seen RotJ.
Anakin comes back and is a Jedi once more.

Obi-Wan had a big wound in his side when he died, that seems gone.

And again, take my above example of John Smith.
If you have a Jedi that lost a leg when he was young but dies an old man.
If he comes back as a ghost, if the ghost looks old must it also be missing a leg?
Why can't it look old but have his leg back again?
Must it be young in order to have both his legs?
If had his Jedi friend Bob, and they both die the same age but Bob didn't loose any limbs.
Can Bob's ghost look old while John must have an young ghost just so both can have both their legs?

Yes there are.
And as I've said, Shaw's ghost is NOT supposed to be pre-turn Anakin, he looks far too old for that.
If you want to argue this then Anakin became a father well into his 60's and lived until he was well over 80. To me this doesn't fit at all.
The Shaw ghost is the image of the Jedi Anakin was when he died. His clothes are different and his wounds are healed. But age wise, he is the same.

And the Hayden ghost is Hayden's head pasted on top of Shaw's body.
So not only is he wearing clothes he never wore, he is also parts of two different people glued together.
This was an Anakin that NEVER existed before.
So again, how is this more consistent?
A character that is a copy/paste job of two different people with different clothes.

Anakin turned before Luke was born but not long before.
Shaw looks far too old to fit that bill. Plus the RotJ script called Anakin's ghost "Elderly".
So I think it is clear that Lucas intended for the ghost to be Anakin as he died, not Anakin 25 years ago.

It would have been very easy for Lucas to hire a younger actor to play the unmasking scene with makeup and then look young in the ghost scene.

He died a good man and why are you so against his wounds being healed?
Have him be the same age but with his wounds gone.
Works fine.
And it did work fine for many years.

If people had an issue with this, it was often that Anakin should not have a ghost at all.
That his evil deeds were too numerous to be forgiven this quickly.
I don't agree but that is the most common argument I saw prior to this change.
And I never came across anyone that argued that this scene had to change just because the PT was being made.
I vaguely remember this scene leaking early on and some thought it was a practical joke that Lucas was playing on the fans.

And I suspect that if this hadn't been changed, few if anyone would talk about this being a problem.

Yes it did.
And how am I cherry picking examples?
I use all three instances of Jedi that died and came back as Force ghosts in the OT as it was filmed.

Obi-Wan looks and sound the same as when he died but no sign of the wound that killed him.
So wounds being gone is established.
Yoda looks the same but doesn't talk.
Anakin likewise doesn't talk but his age is the same as when he died.

Yoda died, then his body vanished.
So Obi-Wan died and then his body vanished.
Anakin died, his body didn't vanish.
But originally, all three look the age when they died and none have wounds.
So the logic works well.
With Hayden, that is now broken as one ghost is now not the age when he died and no explanation is given in the film.

I already explained this. But since you seems to have missed it, here it is again;

As for not seeing wounds, do you see visible wounds on the bodies of storm-troopers when they get shot and die?
Not really as you don't see their actual bodies are they are cowered in armor.
They get hit and drop dead. But they obviously got a deadly wound as otherwise they wouldn't have died.

To sum up, had Lucas done this scene properly, it might have worked.
As is, it doesn't look good and Hayden's grin doesn't fit.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Good point, forgot about Luke finding Bens journal. But I still don't think seeing Qui-Gon as a force ghost would be needed.

 

It did pay off. It had already paid off before the SE.



That's where Force ghosts come from.

 

He has a Jedi outfit, that's all that matters.

No, clothes don't matters. Wether he wears black, brown or white robes it's irrelevant. He's wearing Jedi robes and his appearance is as he was as a Jedi instead of someone he never was, which is the point.

Yes, he died as a Jedi and as a scarred cyborg.

See above.

No, but his spirit in the Force reflects who he was as a Jedi instead of how he was when he died (again, an old, scarred cyborg). That's how it's always been.

No. But it makes your argument a strawman.

 

Is there a ''Jedi cloth'' ? Anakin was wearing a completely different thing in RotS, and many Jedi were no different during the Clone Wars.

 

It is, in fact, merely a head replacement...if you compare the two images, the outfit is exactly in the same position, same lighting, etc. The head, the V-neck and the framing of the shot (which is done quite a bit in the SE) are the only things that are different. Even the body moves the same.

 

Most of the Jedi wore similar outfits to each other, with differing degrees of brown, tan, cream and black.







Only a small handful deviated from the standard like Ahsoka Tano, Aayla Securea, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee, Jocasta Nu, Quinlan Vos and Anakin Skywalker. Though in Anakin's case, his design was similar but with darkner colors and relying on leather over cloth.