Saga Is there a reason why force ghosts can't just stay around all the time?

Remember the line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine."

That line would be very true if they just stuck around constantly. They could help train, they could materialize inside enemy ships, bases, etc and get vital information to help the Rebellion and all sorts of other things. They would be the ultimate spy.

 

I tend to think that Force Ghosts help the living mentally, not physically, and are more concerned about spiritual matters than political matters.


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the last line in the opening post me made laugh.

Ghost Obi-Wan to the Rebels: guys I just got back from Palpatine's chambers and guess what he has on his nightstand? Men are from Coruscant, Women from Alderaan.

yeah I never really got Obi-Wan's line "if you choose to face Vader you'll do it alone, I cannot interfere" why not? anyone's guess I suppose.

 

I always thought he said that to discourage Luke from going. Once Luke went anyway, he had to stay true to his word, as noble ghosts must do.


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well I suppose that's as good as an answer as any and probably the correct way to interpret the scene.

Myself though think that is rather a square reason considering Obi/Yoda want this Sith thing to end ASAP.

 

When Luke says "I understand" and tells R2 to fire up the converters, you see this look on Yoda's face like "really? Even without our help, he's going??"


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I was just thinking about this very topic a little earlier today. I was wondering what exactly Force ghosts do when they're not appearing to people. They obviously inhabit some plane of existence in the SW universe and their consciousness is still present, so other than the brief moments they interact with someone who is living, what do they do during all that time in between? Is appearing to someone something they can only do in a limited capacity? Because if it isn't, why do they choose to present themselves only at specific moments? It always bothers me when Luke calls out for Obi-Wan on Cloud City and Obi-Wan doesn't respond. I get the whole tough love aspect and Luke needing to get through this on his own, but he's literally on the brink of death, and if it's not hard for Obi-Wan to appear to him, why wouldn't he? Unless Obi-Wan knew with absolute 100% certainty that Luke will survive this, but if that's the case than that obviously implies Force ghosts can see the future, which just opens up another can of worms. But really, what limitations to Force ghosts have? And if they have none, then what are they doing all the while everything else is going on in the galaxy?

 

According to TCW, they exist where there is no future or past, meaning that they know a lot about the past and the future and how things are interconnected.
However, they can't just interfere any way they want, because they're not allowed to. The Force Priestesses passed on their knowledge to a chosen few to help bring balance and that knowledge must be used responsibly, i. e. sparingly.

So yes, Obi-Wan knew that Luke would be fine and refrained from meddling.

 

Lulu Mars: Thanks for that. I guess that explains it.

It still makes me wonder what it is the Force ghosts are doing when they're not appearing to someone. Maybe just playing a role as the ultimate watchers and only interfering sparingly.

 

That would be my guess

 

But they are around all the time, they are part of the Force. Luke isn't able to see Obi-Wan in ANH yet he's there anyway.

That's not the right way to look at it. They aren't doing anything. They simply are. Their spirits are part of the Force, the difference is that they are able to appear and interact with some. As part of the Force, they are everywhere.

 

That's not the right way to look at it. They aren't doing anything. They simply are. Their spirits are part of the Force, the difference is that they are able to appear and interact with some. As part of the Force, they are everywhere.[/quote]

The force is all around us. We get that.

But a force ghost or disembodied is the manifestation of an individual's retained identity in a particular place and time, interacting in the familiar way to when their physical form was still around.

The question is, what is that identity doing when it is not manifest as a voice and or ghost? What is the purpose of a retained consciousness and identity when it is not to appear and to speak as it once did while it was materially extant?

 

Like I said, it's simply being.

 

Define and describe "simply being" for someone's identity.

Bear in mind that the films exclusively depict and therefore define the phenomenon of a person retaining their identity after their physical form has perished, is their voice and or body appearing at a specific place and time, in the same the way that the identities of living (physical form) people exist.

In the real world, an identity is defined as how one is recognizably presented to and perceived by others. Visually and aurally. The movies don't show anything else whenever they need the retained identity of an individual to participate in the story. Identities don't "be" anything else besides that in the real world either.

 

I guess their role is to pass on the knowledge though so far the only reason there were in the story is because it was a time of crisis like the Force is out of balance starting with Qui-Gon who taught Yoda who then taught Obi-Wan who continued to guide Luke in his journey and help to find a way to bring balance to the Force which is what happened with Luke appealing to the good in his father which then led to Vader killing the emperor and fulfilling the prophecy. Being a Force Ghost does not make them omniscient and they can still be wrong. All they can do is guiding but at the end of the day, Luke was the one to make a decision by himself for better or worse.

 

That's an interpretation, and not really a relevant one, either. ANH makes it clear:

Vader: I'm on the leader.

Luke: Hang on, R2.

Obi-Wan: Use the Force, Luke.
Let go, Luke.


Vader: The Force is strong with this one.
When Ben talks to Luke, Vader senses it as the Force, not as Force+Ben.

 

Of course it's relevant when the OP asks what they are doing when they are not doing what we see them doing in the movies, which is limited to appearing to and/or communicatng with Luke.

Vader sensed the force flowing through Luke. The prequels imply that he would have no conception of a Ben ghost talking to the pilot he assumes, rightly, to be strong with the force he's feeling.

What Vader senses is not the issue anyway. It's what those identities are doing, and with whom, when they are not doing what the films show them doing.

Manifesting at a particular time and place makes them relatable to the living. When not communicating with the living or in the presence of those not sensitive, then they are just like old fashioned ghosts doomed to endure a linear eternity in limbo.

If that is not the case, and they are not fettered temporally or spatially then that would give them omnipresence and omniscience whenever it suits them, or the story.

 

I've always interpreted it as they can appear with ease in force strong places like Mortis, Dagobah and Korriban/Moraband. They can appear in other places too but only for a short time (Obi Wan on Hoth, the Endor Ghosts and Anakin on Bakura in Legends).

I think they can only last for so long before they fade away too. Heir to the Empire started with Obi-Wan appearing to Luke for the last time on Coruscant which was set 5 years after ROTJ. Though he does only say it is the last time he can appear to Luke, so maybe he still exsisted in the Force but he wasn't able to manifest himself after that point.

 

I think it has something to do with the Force user and the place where the Force ghost appears. At first, Luke can only hear Obi-Wan's voice but as he grows stronger, he can see Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon who never finished his training usually appears with glowing orbs and Yoda can only hear his voice. On Mortis where the Force was stronger than in other places, Anakin could see Qui-Gon's corporal form manifesting himself and Obi-Wan saw him appearing in a vision. Dagobah is stated to be one of the purest places in the galaxy, though Qui-Gon only appears in glowing orbs. In AotC, we can hear Qui-Gon's voice calling Anakin and Yoda hears it so my guess is that they're more observing and what's happening and following specific Force wielders but they can't actively interfere with the events.

 

What Vader senses is important if one is arguing that the ghosts are significantly different from the Force. And I never said Vader would have a conception of what a Force ghost feels like.....but he DOES know what the Force, itself, feels like. When he feels the Force during Ben's conversation, he describes it simply as the Force, meaning it feels no different to him in this situation than it has in any other situation where he's felt the Force. Thus, there was no difference between the Force and Ben.

I would argue that this is the case...since that's precisely what they do in the story. When the story doesn't need them, then they simply aren't on the writer's radar.

 

Is it officially confirmed... the fact Vader sensing the force in Luke during the trench-run, is because of Obi-Wan communicating with Luke? I have heard this before, I'm curious.

Is it possible it is merely Luke's presence that allows him to read this?

 

I never thought it was Obi-Wan that Vader is sensing but more Luke's abilities that are revealing themselves, just like the disturbance in the Force in ESB was Luke's growing abilities and not Obi-Wan.

 

Same here, but I think the proposed theory (if it is just a theory) is more about Vader sensing Luke's power at being attuned enough to hear Obi-Wan, than just sensing Obi-Wan alone. I don't think (anyone correct me if I am wrong) Vader sensing Obi-Wan had much to do with it, that wasn't exactly what I was asking.

 

There's no specific place and time for them to appear. They are part of the netherworld of the Force. There's no "what are they doing". That doesn't apply. They simply exist and are able to be after they are dead. That's it. When a living being dies, it becomes one with the Force, part of the larger energy field, and their identity is gone. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda have learned how to retain their identity.

Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it. The Force is simply strong with Luke and Vader senses that.