PT Signing the Treaty

I was watching Phantom Menace again and realized why Palpatine/Sidious wanted Padme to sign the treaty so badly. This always confused me and seemed like a plot hole since Palpatine's ultimate goal was to use the Naboo crisis to get nominated and elected Chancellor....But alas It DOES make sense to me now.


If Padme signed the treaty then it would officially be the Trade Federation's planet and there is nothing the Republic could do legally to stop it. Say Amidala pleads to the Senate, they send the commission to ascertain the truth and while it may take longer, the Republic and Chancellor Valorum would revoke their franchise and boom, crisis ended.

Now if she signed the treaty then Palpatine could use it to show how corrupt and powerless the Republic is under Valorum. As it happens the Queen escapes and comes to Coruscant without having signed the treaty so Palatine has to improvise and modify his plan to best take advantage of the new circumstance and have Padme herself call for a vote of no confidence.

I also think the reason why Palpatine sent Maul to Naboo and wanted the trade federation to defeat Padme's insurrection is so it could stay under trade federation and when Palpatine is elected Chancellor, he would play the hero and confirm his campaign promise by being the one to oust the trade federation.

What do you think?

 

Pretty much exactly. It's yet another case of either way, Palpatine wins

 

That's right.

 

I agree. Although Palpatine's originally intended scheme is never enunciated, we may presume it would have had the same outcome. Ultimately, the treaty is an interchangeable tool. Palpatine achieves the same desired effect through the Queen's presence on Coruscant instead.

 

The brilliance of it being that, assuming one doesn't know Palpatine and Sidious are the same person (which I have seen from first timers, especially those who watch in chronological order) then it'll seem like "Hey, the heroes won! Only sequel hook is that other bad guy is still out there"

Truly, it's fantastic

 

AND, if Padmé had ended up dead, abducted or whatever as a result of the invasion and/or her escape, Palpatine would have used that to his advantage.

 

We see his brilliance but also his flaws in episode 1.

Sure he's the mastermind genius who singlehandedly orchestrates the downfall of the republic, the ascension of the empire and the destruction of the Jedi, but he also reveals his flaws in a couple major mistakes made in episode 1.

He underestimates the "army of primitives" that is the Gungans. "This will work to our advantage" Something that will prove to be his downfall in ROTJ when the Ewoks defeat his best troops and he also severely underestimates how people's core natures can change. "This is an unexpected move for her. It's too aggressive". He does not expect Padme the pacifist to go to war just like he doesn't expect Vader the tyrant to be redeemed and become Anakin Skywalker again. Lastly we also see while he can see the future and predict what will happen, his vision is limited. He has to tweak some major aspects of his plans along the way.

I really like how he manipulates Padme, Luke's mother. It makes his mock-tone when talking to Luke in ROTJ even more evil since he effectively manipulated both his mother and father.

 

Nice post. ..exactly! I also believe that it was quite a surprise to find that Padme was not as malleable as he thought; something that I wish that TCW would have capitalized on... SHOULD have capitalized on.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

I have a slightly different take. I think Sidious wanted the treaty signed so that, even after he's elected Chancellor and ejects the Trade Federation from Naboo to great applause, Nute Gunray will be shielded from any real legal consequences. Nute Gunray and his connections are an integral part of Sidious's plan, and so he doesn't want him locked up in jail and removed from his position as viceroy. As it happens, Sidious manages to use his influence in the Courts to get Nute Gunray off the hook against all odds, but I think this was a gambit he would have preferred not to have to resort to.

Unfortunately for him, Amidala and Boss Nass ended up teaming up against the Federation and throwing them out on their terms, not Sidious's, which threw a bit of a wrench into his plans and forced him to scramble a bit, even though he was overall victorious.

 

I've been thinking on the matter of the treaty and Palpatine's scheme some more.

I think having the treaty signed was important to sustaining Palpatine's scheme. Palpatine needed the Naboo crisis to draw favor for himself as the next Chancellor, but the Federation was only willing to go through with it if it were legalized. The treaty was insurance for the Federation and their alliance with Palpatine.

So when the Queen exposed the illegal invasion to the Senate before it could be legalized, the Federation would have naturally retreated. We saw this beginning to happen, as the Federation's representative called for a commission to ascertain the truth. This would have stalled out the debate long enough for the Federation to withdraw their invasion and obfuscate the evidence of it having occurred, which would have consequently destroyed Palpatine's scheme, as it would have appeared that there had been no actual invasion, and thus no prompt to favor Palpatine getting elected. Fortunately, Palpatine was able to improvise through his manipulation of the Queen, and instigated the election before this could occur.

If the treaty had been successfully signed, it would have still needed to be "ratified by the Senate" as the Viceroy alluded to at one point. Palpatine of course promised the Viceroy that he would ensure their treaty be accepted by the Senate, giving them assurance to sustain their occupation. But I presume that Palpatine was only lying to the Viceroy, and in actually would have fought against the ratification in the Senate, and would have commissioned to have the Queen brought to Coruscant to testify the actual illegality of the attack (as well as perhaps to additionally give the vote of no-confidence.) And in this scenario, with the treaty already signed and shown to the Senate, there would also be solid proof of the occupation and no way for the Federation to deny its occurrence.

 

I like how Palpatine's underestimating of "primitives" gave him problems in Episode One and, once again, in ROTJ.

He never learned.

 

Did they really give him problems in TPM though? I think he just wanted to create a crisis that would see him voted in as Chancellor. Mission accomplished.

 

In a way it was a defeat for him, Palpatine's pawns (the TF) lost a lot of power. This caused him to have to rely on Count Dooku for resources to create the galactic conflict. If the TF had won and kept control of Naboo and influence in the Senate, he would not have needed the Clone Wars to turn so much of the Senate to his side.

I don't think he truly under-estimated either group.
-In TPM the Gungans DO get wiped out by the TF, they survive because Anakin destroyed the command ship.
-The Empire had a pretty substantial presence on Endor, including at least one AT-AT. In fact Palpatine said "an entire legion of my best troops awaits them" They basically just lost because stormtroopers are morons.

Darth Downunder I disagree with you as well; Palpatine begged Padme to stay on Coruscant, seemed pretty peeved when she left, and specified to the TF that he wanted the Naboo/Gungans wiped out. Yes the situation ended up working well for him but whatever his ideal plan was, it clearly did not come to fruition. (Including the obv loss of his highly trained apprentice)

 

I'm not sure Palpatine's original plan was to become Chancellor, at leaf just with the invasion and the treaty being signed. I think that was something that developed after the queen escaped and Palpatine used it to his advantage.

I tend to take the original plan of TF occupation, treaty being signed legitimizing the occupation, and Sidious ratifying it in the Senate, all at face value.

The plan changes once Amidala shows up on Coruscant. Remember Palps sent Maul after the queen after she escaped and arrived on Tatooine. If he wanted her to go to Coruscant, he never would have sent Maul after her on Tatooine.

Signing the treaty and TF occupation would likely weaken the Chancellor to the point he would eventually have to resign. This was likely Palpatine's original hope.

Amidala's escape and arrival on Coruscant just inadvertently sped up the process.

The gungans were potentially a fly in the ointment. They presented an unknown factor.

I really wish George had left the parts in the film mentioning Valorum having a showdown in the Senate over the Naboo issue(this was to take place after the queen and jedi leave Coruscant and intend to fight to liberate the Naboo). Might have framed the stakes a bit better.

 

What was the taxation - Naboo link?

The Trade Federation would get "what" in the treaty? What exactly was their motivation here?

 

Have complete control of a resource-rich mid-rim world, without paying anything in return. It's a large scale form of robbery.

 

They're mad about being taxed for their use of outlying trade routes, so they figure they'll blockade a small, defenseless world lying along one of those trade routes until they get their way. Sidious manages to convince them to try pushing their luck by taking complete control of the world, thereby gaining direct access to all its resources and, by extension, its trade leverage. The goal all along is to gain control of the trade route in order to increase their power in negotiations. Becoming the sovereign rulers of the planet is just a more extreme version of what they were trying to get from the blockade.

 

Nemos: We've decided on the following options.

1. Just don't pay the tax in protest. Free
2. Simply collect the tax from the consumers. Tax neutralized
3. #2 and charge a Republic tax administrative fee (we will mark that up big time). Profit.
4. #2 and 3 .... AND 1. New revenue source

Let's go with 4. Let's go with 4 !!!!

<knock knock>

Darth Sidious: What if you blockaded a planet that doesn't have the power to repeal the tax?
Nemos: Let us look at this financially and long term.

In our original scenario we either go along with it and neutralize the tax cost to us. Worst case, the end consumers get pissed off and they demand the Republic repeal the tax.

In our other option, we actually profit off it but get into a "what are you gonna do about it?" with the Republic when they demand the tax payments.

Or we go with this flasher's plan, spend money on a blockade that could quickly escalate out of control while getting into a much bigger "what are you gonna do about it?" with the Republic.

Darth Sidious: We'll fix that with a treaty.
Nemos: How would that work?
Darth Sidious: Treaty.
Nemos: Sold. Phew. We almost made a big mistake by not talking to this financial advisor.

 

1. You suffer legal consequences and have assets forcibly seized by the government.
2. Passing along the cost to consumers isn't any corporation's ideal solution when it comes to taxes. If they could get away with raising prices without it cutting into their profits due to reduced consumption of their product, they would have already done it. Given that the Trade Federation seems to be a monopoly, this may not apply, but we could assume there are regulations instituting some manner of price control on the Federation's services.
3. Again, that's not how it works.
4. See above.

No one expected the blockade to escalate out of control. The blockade was perfectly legal. It was the invasion that was risky. But the Neimoidians are clearly in too deep with Sidious to back out. They're afraid of him. Besides, Sidious convinced them it would be fine. He has influence in the Senate, and he's clearly proven it to them before. All they have to do is bully a fourteen-year-old girl into signing a treaty. Easy. They can do that. Right?

 

They could just claim it was legal and kill the "ambassadors" that come to negotiate the asset seizure. And "force" from the Republic "government"? Seems like that would have stopped them from invading as well. Oh, but their powerful friend with Senate connections, Sidious, could just make it legal. The same guy that couldn't repeal the tax.

Ideal? Ideal would be no tax. But it is there. If they don't do #1, they'd just create a tax surcharge. If the Republic had price controls and the ability to enFORCE them, then the Republic could have just set the price control to 1% of value for Trade Federation services until they agreed to the taxes (maybe by signing a treaty) and stopping the blockade. They wouldn't have lost those Jedi escort pilots. Maybe it is good Valorum was ousted. But why didn't Amidala suggest this to her new powerful ally, Chancellor Palpatine?

Based off of what? I know what doesn't work. A member of a Republic invading another Republic member and holding up a treaty saying "see. It's legal. Not signed under duress or anything. Darth Maul was there to notarize." Not to mention, how does that address the tax situation that was the supposed root of the problem?

Why not? What would the Republic do about it? Send two Jedi to negotiate?

Obviously it is easier than a surcharge.

Nemo 1:
We asked this powerful ally to repeal the tax. He couldn't.
He told us a blockade would meet no resistance. Two Jedi showed up.
He told us the 14yo queen would sign a treaty (because she can override the Senate's tax law, right?). She didn't. And she's challenging us.
He told us to kill two Jedi. Easy Peasy. Except they escaped and now we are attempted murderers.
Now he is telling us to invade.

Nemo 2:
Makes sense. I mean, this guy is due right. You can't be wrong all the time. And if he is, I'm sure he will have another option.

Nemo 1:
What if that option is to leave us to take all the blame? What if that Maul dude is just coming here to kill us?

Nemo 2:
I'm scared of him. And he's always right. Let's take the easier path. Invade a planet with the two Jedi we were afraid to kill that now have a reason to kill us "in self defense".

Nemo 3:
Yeah. And my tax surcharge idea was "crazy".

 

Remember Naboo has an interior of plasma combs. Also it had a growing economy and was Palpatine's homeworld. Palpatine's aim was of course to get elected yet I am led to believe Naboo and its resources figured into his long term plans as well.

As for the trade federation-seems they were already quite powerful as it was what with private droid armies and their own senate seats.

 

He pretended he wanted her to stay on Coruscant. As soon as she left he had that evil smile on his face. Apart from Maul dying, which is a separate issue, I'm sure he saw the events of TPM as an unqualified success. Out of a crisis he manipulated he became Chancellor. He even found a new young potential Sith to corrupt. One with more potential than Maul or even himself.

 

You're conflating two very different situations. Chancellor Valorum secretly sent two Jedi to negotiate an end to a legal blockade. The Neimoidians tried to kill them. There would have bee no witnesses and no official record of the Jedi ever having been sent. They couldn't just kill two on-the-record federal agents who've come to do something completely routine and above-board. Something which it would be fairly ludicrous to think even the beleaguered Senate of Episode I lacks the authority to do.

And yes, just because Sidious can't magically repeal the tax, doesn't mean he can't use his influence to ensure that a bilateral agreement between two members of the Senate is ratified. One does not automatically imply the other. The real world is complicated and different situations are, of course, different. You're making all kinds of logical errors here.

Yes, ideal would be no tax. That's why they're doing what they're dong. Congratulations, glad to see we're on the same page.

Just because the Republic is struggling to resolve the blockade (because it is completely legal) and invasion (because they need to time to investigate before acting, and in the meantime people continue to die) doesn't mean the Republic is completely powerless to enforce basic tax policies and asset seizures (much of it probably accomplished electronically). That doesn't logically follow.

The price control is just conjecture. We can assume the Republic crafted the tax legislation in such a way that the Trade Federation would actually have to end up paying it, for real. We can also assume this mechanism can not be so easily taken advantage of to immediately force the Trade Federation to desist in their actions without further debate and legislative conflict. The specifics of all this is not important, because The Phantom Menace is not actually a film about tax policy. This conversation is basically getting way off into the weeds about things that aren't important to the basic plot of the film which is not at all hard to understand.

It's a risk, but Sidious has convinced the Neimoidians that it's a risk worth taking. No one can prove that it was a treaty signed under duress, and Sidious claims to have enough influence in the Senate to ensure that such an agreement will be approved. He's presumably demonstrated the extent of his influence to the Neimoidians before, enough so that they place a certain amount of trust in his abilities. Still, they're scared and think they may be going too far this time. But they think it's too late to back out. That's the story, take it or leave it. There's nothing inherently implausible about it.

We've already addressed how it will help resolve the tax situation. By taking control of Naboo the Trade Federation can use its position in the trade network to disrupt the balance of trade and thus even more effectively influence trade policy. It's a strategy that's been employed by states engaged in trade conflicts throughout history: If you want to control trade, take control of key points along the trade routes.

No, they'd send federal agents.

Which I've already pointed out is an implausible solution. Try to keep up?

Nice fan fiction.

 

Please watch the scene again. He DOES NOT smile. Everyone leaves the room and he has a frustrated look on his face, I guess he's faking for..no one?

What you're saying doesn't match the orders he makes in the film.
-He orders the TF to get the treaty signed = they fail
-He orders Maul to capture Padme and kill the Jedi = he fails
-He tells Padme to remain on Coruscant = she refuses
-He tells the TF to wipe out the Gungans = they fail

Unless he literally never says what he want to happen to anyone and it's "opposite day" in the galaxy; Palpatine's original plan CLEARLY failed and he manipulated the results to serve him as best he could. This is backed by the Darth Plagueis novel.