Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Battle of Jakku Spoilers)

I think fans keep trying to make Cinder and The First Order related.

They kind of ignore Sloane was against Cinder.

Cinder is the last dying gasp of the Empire and the Emperor's revenge.

 

I guess the question is whether or not Rax saw starting over as part of Palpatine's contingency or not.

 

There are all kinds of twists and turns that we will learn about in the next few years regarding the formation of the First Order. The only thing we know about Sloane at this point post Jakku is that she was still a respected figure around the time of the ST (from the Phasma book).

Now if she was still alive, retired, or had much authority anymore by that point is still up for debate. I'm sure it is something that will be focused on quite a bit during the next five years though.

 

The writers in the old EU got around the fact that the Empire was not as old as initially assumed by establishing that the Empire built itself upon already existing negative Core World cultural aspects such as humanocentrism which does not seem to exist prior to the Empire in the new canon.

Part of the reason for stripping the Empire of the conservative elements that existed in the old continuity, I would assume, is to prevent what happened in the old continuity: The Empire, stripped of its more negative aspects, actually became something you could sympathize for if not outright agree with. It seemed that the New Republic was fighting something that actually had the will of a decent part of the galactic population behind it. That's how the state that claimed to be its heir ended up as part of the Galactic Triumvirate by the end of Legacy.

I can't imagine that such "Sympathy for the Devil" is what George Lucas intended, and the new continuity is doing a much better job of making it absolutely clear that the Empire was an establishment that was rotten beyond saving. Instead of the New Republic inhabiting a perpetual moral gray area, it is clearly within the right with the will of the people behind it.

That was my impression, supported I think, by his rant about not remaining the Outcast as expected. He added the idea for a reborn empire on top of Palaptine's flip the board command.

She too had a dream of a purified Empire, even if it was different than Rax's. Though she may not have done what Rax did, she had no qualms about taking advantage of the groundwork he left her. He did all the dirty work which would allow her to keep her conscience clean and fulfill her dream.

Rae is as opportunistic and petty as any Imperial. She just refuses to see it.

I am not actually sure Sloane would oppose Operation Cinder. Specifically, in the books she was portrayed in, she opposed Imperial corruption: the infighting and backstabbing especially exemplified by Rax. Such infighting disrupts order and brings chaos which is what she also opposes. Under the right circumstances and fed the right arguments, Rae Sloane could support Operation Cinder.

 

Meant to go over this a long time ago...

The Senate remaining operational is irrelevant. It needed to exist while the New Order built new organs of administration capable of handling its duties. Not all revolutions rip out the old organs of government all at once. Like a virus in the lysogenic phase, revolutions can infest a body, waiting for the right trigger to fully burst forth. The ultimate goal of the New Order was not the continued functioning of the senate but the replacement of senatorial authority by Moffs and Grand Moffs who personally answered to the Emperor.

In Legends. In canon, it is not exactly clear what parts of the Old Republic the Empire is a distillation of. In Legends, human high culture had its beginnings in humanocentrism of the Core Worlds. However, in canon, humanocentrism prior to the establishment of the Empire has not been demonstrated, though can perhaps be inferred. However, we see no evidence for its existence on some of the most important core worlds. In our peeks into pre Empire history such as the Clone Wars gave us, humanocentrism is never an issue. Indeed, when given a glimpse into the politics of the time, Core Worlds such as Coruscant seem to issues such as education and provision of basic needs on its minds not the persecution of aliens. Unlike Legends, no evidence of humanocentism in the Core Worlds exists in pre Empire stories. So, the officials of the Empire seem to be the driver of humanocentric culture and it does not seem to stem from ancient cultures of the Core Worlds.

Also, we have no indication to what extent uniformity and militarism were valued amongst the various core worlds in canon so we cannot say for sure that the Empire represents those values as "good ol' fashioned".

In fact, from what scant little we have seen of worlds under the Empire, Core or not, it seems that an entirely "alien" culture is enforced on such worlds. Take for instance the vid screens placed around Coruscant or local establishments being forced to keep vid screens on in order to receive 24/7 Imperial Holovision updates. I doubt such a dystopic reality is a reflection of Old Republic ideals but instead reflect the culture of control that the Empire enforced on worlds in the name of the Emperor.

Finally, you have the destruction of the old guard, the Jedi Knights who were strident supporters of the Old Republic and what it represented culturally and ideologically.

Unlike in Legends, canon presents us with no clear precursors to Imperial ideology before the Empire existed. If the Empire reflects any conservative trend, it is not clear which trend that might be.

Instead you have the New Order plotting the dissolution of the last vestiges of representative government, the destruction of the guardians of the old ways, and the promotion of an ideology that seems trickle down from the top.

Yes, they may be criminals to the regime currently in power, that does not change the fact that Rebellion overwhelmingly presents itself as the conservative force. For heaven's sake, it calls itself the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

No, it does not restore the Republic according to Mon Mothma in the Propaganda book. From a purely legal sense, it never could because the man who most likely held that authority died over Endor (i'm assuming the Senate, in usual idiotic fashion, most likely gave up its authority to strip the Emperor of his title and legal authority) . However, the Alliance, did in good faith, move to create a representative government more akin to what the galaxy had grown used to for a 1,000+ years as opposed to the "anomaly" represented by the Empire for 24 years.

So yes, I am arguing that the Empire clearly presented itself as the force for change while the Rebellion presented itself as the conservative option. If you want to be the conservative force, you probably don't call your movement "The New Order" .The phrase alone suggests that the old ways, whatever they were were not good enough and change was needed.

Did the Empire claim to have the rule of law behind it? Of course, and before Palaptine's treachery became public, for all anyone knew, it did have the rule of law. Incidentally, the one poster I mentioned who first argued that the Empire was the revolutionary force and the rebellion was the counter revolutionary force, was certainly not being polemical; he was serious. I disagreed at the time but now see his reasoning: The Empire is of course claiming rule of law and legitimacy and by doing so sends a message that the people voted for the revolution, for change, and for vision and that the Rebels, being the troglodytes they are, are standing in the way of progress. The Empire, especially the Legends Empire, does not ignore the past but uses it in a way that makes it no less revolutionary. The canon Empire, so far, uses the past to justify its acts far less than its Legends counterpart did making it even more revolutionary.

One last point is that often times revolutions claim they are calling upon cultures and ideas even older than the ones they are immediately replacing. The Nazis did this as they tried to to change a largely protestant Germany. Even the USSR appealed to Russian history on occasion when trying to justify its actions and make Russia the center of Communist empire. Appealing to aspects of their respective pasts made those forces no less revolutionary in the broad sweep of history.

Now, the First Order. What beast is that? It hates the New Republic but also gives indications that it's not too fond of the Empire either. Phasma in the Poe comics tells Terex that the First Order is better than the Empire and has purged it of its flaws. Sloane too, presumably an influential individual in the Order's early days, talks about a purified Empire. The FIrst Order then is actually is a counter revolution of a different sort: not a conservative reaction to revolutionary forces but the segment of the people within the previous revolution that believed that the previous revolution wasn’t good enough or pure enough.

The First Order is even more of an anomaly than the Empire: The Empire was touted as an evolution of the Republic needed and justified by the chaos of the Clone Wars. The First Order only has the support of a small fraction of the galaxy, and unlike the Empire, must force everyone into submission by military might alone. Absolute military dominance is made extremely unlikely now that Starkiller Base is gone. Unless TLJ reveals that Snoke has some elaborate endgame up his sleeve, the concept of the First Order as a victorious power is even more laughable than the Empire. Everyone should be against them except those in the Unknown Regions and Western Reaches that were directly helped by them. I can't imagine that is significant support.

I suppose the question is: will pro Imperial Centrist worlds that broke off from the New Republic and joined the First Order still support it even after the destruction of the Hosnian system?

 

I don’t think the First Order is still trying to accomplish Operation: Cinder. They are, after all, part of the end goal of the Operation. Cinder was only a partial failure. Palpatine’s plan to purge the Galaxy failed, but Rax’s plan to build a more pure Empire succeeded.

The fact that Hux expected the minor galactic powers to “bow to the First Order” after the New Republic’s destruction makes it clear to me that they’re not planning the sort of extermination war. They’re not executing Palpatine’s will anymore, they’re their own entity.

 

Again, as Jello pointed out earlier, it may be that the First Order idea was merely tacked onto Operation Cinder and was not part of Palpatine's original vision. This conclusion is supported by Rax's rant about no longer being the Outcast and showing everyone what he could do, including Palpatine. Finally, Palpatine was not the kind of guy that would want things to go on without him. Operation Cinder was intended to create anarchy and make the galaxy suffer as Rax reveals. The First Order, at least the nascent idea, seems to be Rax's.

Which still supports your argument if for different reasons: The First Order has no intention of carrying out Operation Cinder.

 

The canon Empire is very much a product of the Clone Wars television show and the restructuring of the universe around the Clone Wars as well as Prequels. In this universe, it seems very much the Clone Wars was "the first full scale war since the establishment of the Republic" as much is made about how it's left a traumatizing effect on the whole of the galaxy.

"Thrawn" the novel has the titular character ask why so many humans seem to have issues with him and rather than give a somewhat long winded rant about humans being the founders of the Core and Republic that high human culture was based on--he, instead, says that aliens were blamed for the Clone Wars as well as Separatists. The Empire's justification for itself is based explicitly on the false flag operation which Palpatine perpetrated on the universe. A system designed to protect the galaxy from another Clone Wars and project such strength as to never leave the galaxy vulnerable again.

It is the World War 1 and 9/11 of the galaxy.

In this respect, the First Order should probably be taken at its world that they believe they are dealing with the "enemy at the gates" and the galaxy really is destined to collapse into hopeless anarchy as well as civil war if not for the Empire or their strong hand. It's a historical non-starter given the Republic administrated for a 1000 generations without difficulty but that sort of accuracy has never been necessary for fascist regimes.

Indeed, the Galactic Civil War as well as the overthrow of the Empire is proof positive the Empire didn't go FAR ENOUGH in bringing a structured order to the galaxy. The regime's idealogy being self-reinforcing as everything which creates chaos such as the destruction of Alderaan or Hosnian Prime being simply acts that are rebelling against the establishment of order.

In this respect, the Empire's hard right regime is closer to many Latin American dictatorships which take the view chaos is constantly being fomented by anarchists and outsiders that can only be guided away by the military. I'm also inclined to believe the dissolving of the Senate is really the moment the "real" Empire came into power as everything for the previous 33 years was transitional.

 

Matthew Trias But the New Republic is just as revolutionary as the Empire. If we use the Old Republic as the basic model the Empire was a centralisation and the New Republic was a democratisation and therefore both can be considered 'revolutionary'.

On another note did the New Republic move over all previous Imperial law? Was this the reason Mon Mothma had to rescind Emergency Powers Act that was passed during the Clone Wars?

 

Matthew Trias But the New Republic is just as revolutionary as the Empire. If we use the Old Republic as the basic model the Empire was a centralisation and the New Republic was a democratisation and therefore both can be considered 'revolutionary'.

On another note did the New Republic move over all previous Imperial law? Was this the reason Mon Mothma had to rescind Emergency Powers Act that was passed during the Clone Wars?

 

Well its revolutionary by the concept of being a revolution.

But it's a counter-revolution given it's the same government as TPM except with some reforms to greater democratization.

 

The Alliance is a Rebellion that also happens to be a counter revolution.

As to your your point, Darth Philosopher, though the New Republic may be a far more democratized version of the Old Republic it is still more familiar to the people of the galaxy than the Galactic Empire is. It's creators intend this and they couch the language of their movement with words and phrases speak to that familiarity of the Old Republic which most cultures and civilizations within the Empire still instinctively recognize. "Hey, just 23 years ago, we actually weren't a bunch of crazies blowing up our own member states!"

The New Order is exactly that: the New Order. The state being embodied by a single sovereign, though made legal, is not what people were used to. It's ...ahhh...New.

 

It is kind of hilarious Jello is slowly moving to the Rebellion side as we find out more and more the Empire isn't balls and gowns but thugs in jackboots.



Yes, JOIN US!

JOIN MON MOTHMA IN RESTORING CLASSIC CORE CULTURE.

 

It's helpful to define terms rather than use broad generalities. Are we talking about right and left by Star Wars standards or by Earth standards? If it's by the latter, then I don't think the Empire constitutes being hard right merely because it's militaristic; I doubt anyone would argue that the USSR was a far right institution merely because it liked people to walk in lockstep. ( though I might argue it was a bit fascist )

We can then further ask, are we talking about traditional European right wing or American right wing? Though they have their similarities, they also have their differences.

By any account, though, I think it would it be safe to call the Empire a bit fascist, which I think lies outside the traditional political spectrum as a bastardization of left and right ideas. The Empire is not pro free market and individual freedom, nor does it genuinely possess a belief in helping the downtrodden through social aid, yet it will, on the service, pay lip service to all those concepts when they give the Empire what it wants. Operationally, it is fascist.

However, in the end the Empire is not even fascist in ideology though it may be in operation. It has no ideology about preserving a nation or even the state.

In its purest form, the Empire is the Empire: a tool for one man to feed himself and become bloated on the misery and suffering of others.

 

That's because in new canon the Empire is only a little bit better than the First Order and it certainly does not seem to represent any cultural pillars unlike its counterpart in Legends. Even human high culture in canon so far seems to only be an idea that gained traction thanks to the Empire, though future books may say otherwise I suppose.

And as you pointed out out, it only is a little bit better than the First Order pre ANH after which it is not appreciably different from the First Order except that as Sloane points out, it's a bit worse because you know...it's all backstabby. It can't even conquer the galaxy efficiently.

 

Double.

 

That seemed to be the implication. At least, the assumption is that they were carrying over Old Republic law pre Empire right up until the installment of the Emperor.

Again, another appeal to tradition by the Alliance.

 

My point is that it isn't a counter revolution in the traditional sense - they aren't moving back fully to the Old Republic (especially not in its later decades) and are moving forward with a new yet familiar 'restoration' of the Republic. They are, in their own way, revolutionary, albeit to a lesser extent than the Empire.

 

And yes Charlemagne19, in the new canon Alliance/New Republic fans can the ones that claim to support the classical cultures of the Core and Old Republic.

Perhaps we should start talking about balls and drinking fancy wine....or whatever Legends Imperial supporters did.

 

I'm not sure any counter revolutionary group has ever succeeded in fully restoring something 100% to what it was. They do to intend to bring back something more recognizable. The term counter revolutionary just means "against the revolution". A group just needs to be against the revolution. True, this is usually a reactionary group, but some times people from the same revolution can split ways, like Trotsky and Stalin. This happens when one group within the revolution does not feel that the other group is keeping to the original stated ideals of said revolution. This usually leads to one side accusing the other of being an counter revolutionary.

This is why I half jokingly said above, that the First Order is technically a counter revolutionary movement to the Empire. Phasma and Sloane both accuse it of being impure and being unable to deliver the stated Imperial ideals of order.

When stacked next to the Old/New Republic, the First Order is even more revolutionary than the Empire was when it first began. The First Order does not even use the veneer of law to legitimize its actions. It advocates a violent overthrow of the existing government and the implementation of a raw and in your face military dictatorship run by some guy who does not even have the class to call himself Emperor but refers to himself as Supreme Leader like some tin pot dictator. Unlike the Empire, it will not keep the trappings of democracy around but will instead proceed immediately to the ideology of "Pound Your Face Until You Obey".

But at least it solved the "backstabby" problem? :reads Phasma comic: Maybe not?

I think we like to consider the Rebellion a revolution, especially if we are from the US because we are trained to think revolution=good. It's a hard concept to let go.

The only truly revolutionary thing about the New Republic is that it has a roving capital, a small standing military, and a Chancellor without Supreme in the title.

I gueeeeeeeessss the change to a roving capital is pretty revolutionary.

Much good that did the New Republic.

But still, not enough in my oppinion to call the movement as a whole a revolution.

The ignorant dead beat dad's assertion not withstanding. (looks at Han)

 

Where do the Seppies fit into all of this? Aren't the Separatists the original revolutionary movement (against the status quo of the Republic), and the Imperial the counterrevolutionary movement which, having crushed the threat to the traditional order, then decided to remake that order into something that would never again have to face that kind of revolution?

I always got the sense that, in terms of the roles they played if not their ideology, the Separatists were the equivalent of 1920s/1930s Bolsheviks, anarchists, and other left-wing radicals trying to overthrow and burn down the established order in order to start anew. And the Imperials would be the equivalent of the fascist movements that cropped up in that era, winning favor with the established elites by setting themselves up as the enforcers saving the system from the revolutionaries, while also convincing the elites that said system had to be re-forged into something different and stronger in order to survive such threats in the future.

 

The Seperatists just wanted to seperate...hence...uhh...the Separatist Alliance. On the surface, it seems that they did not want to conquer and impose their beliefs on the Republic. A revolution usually intends to take over the territory controlled by the old government and impose its beliefs on a society, whether it be willing or not. This does not appear to have been the goal of the non Sith allied leaders of the Alliance. Ostensibly, war was justified as a pro active defense because of an act of Republic aggression on Geonosis.

I mean, do you get the sense that people like Clovis' mom wanted to burn down the Republic and impose their ideas? I did not get that sense. If it were not for Dooku and Sidious , the Confederacy would have sued for peace.

Now...Dooku himself...yeah. Revolutionary. But he ultimately shared the same views as Sidious and so the Empire, not the Confederacy, was the true fulfillment of his "revolution".

Personally, I'm probably most supportive of the Confederacy of Independent Systems...at least as the non Sith like Clovis' mother viewed it. If people cannot agree on how to live, they should be allowed to go their own way in peace. Like the old dad of the Stormtrooper in that Tales comic said: "People just want to live free under the stars." Gotta let them go.

Hard core supporters of the Old Republic, New Republic, Empire, and First Order don't understand that.From a Confederacy supporter they all look the same to some extent. Just a matter of degree.


EDIT: I also support the Rebel Alliance because it was the only viable option for securing freedom for the galaxy. Finally, the New Republic of canon actually did initially let planets go their own way unlike the Old Republic and the New Republic/Galactic Alliance in Legends. However, I do not approve of its later state sponsored terrorism.

The Confederacy idea however the best compromise in my opinion. It allows planets to live as they want while providing for a common defense in times of trouble. The planets that went their own way under the New Republic have no pact that will draw them together in times of trouble.