ST George Lucas was right all along about fans.

Hello everyone, long time lurker here and I'm excited to share my opinion with everyone. Note: this is not an attack on anyone or this board in particular, please keep this in mind. Just to give a little background before I get into all this; I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and I loved the OT as well as the PT. Maybe TPM wasn't the best movie out there, but nonetheless it's a solid addition despite the inherent goofiness. Ironically, the one movie I never really liked was TFA. While it was a good movie overall, it was a literal rehash of ANH, offered nothing new of substance, and seemed like a cheap safe movie. By contrast, TLJ at least broke barriers like the OT and PT did. It offered new ideas, angles, and storylines that make this movie memorable and interesting.

Which brings me to this thread, that perhaps George Lucas was right all along. Listen it's no secret that part of the reason why he didn't bother with the ST and sold it to Disney was because of his infamous statement on "why even bother?" He said it himself many times for the way he was villified, ripped on, and hated for the Prequels. What is the point of even creating something to have a certain vocal segment of the fanbase call him the worst thing ever and attack him for going outside of what they inherently believe is Star Wars to them, or pushing the boundaries? Even Hayden couldn't even bear the brunt of all the negativity that for years he went under the radar with acting, and only this year showed up to a forgiving Star Wars Convention that had fans cheering for him (rightfully so). I never understood this concept amongst some fans. Revisionist history runs wild as well. Some of the same disgruntled fans say that the EU was better and is the true sequel trilogy, yet ignore the hate that the Vong storyline triggered, and the controversy with some of the other books. The fanbase is diverse, and some people need to stop hating anything that goes outside of what they perceive Star Wars is. The reality is, the idea of SW has changed from movie to movie, and maybe that's why it's such a great story and has the longevity and relevance that it has.

Excited for Episode 9 at this point, and the fact that Rian Johnson made it nearly impossible for JJ Abrams to rehash ROTJ, which was my fear from the beginning.

 

First off, welcome.

Unfortunately, your logic is flawed from the jump, and here's why: You never really liked TFA. OK. I don't like TLJ. So why are we different? You seem to have come here to try to talk sense into those of us who hate this film, when it sounds as though, two years ago, the roles could have been reversed with me telling you to get with the program.

For me, this is not about doing something 'different'. Putting pineapple on a pizza is different. Putting lettuce in a bowl and pouring salad dressing on it and then calling it pizza isn't different; it no longer meets the definition of a pizza.

I can't speak for everyone here who hates this film, but more and more, I am getting the sense that people feel the need to 'explain' the concept of 'different' to us, and then call us whiny fan boys and girls when we still disagree.

I understand the film just fine. I get it. I understand the plot. I get that too. I get that Disney brought in different directors with the intention of letting today's brightest fantasy filmmakers play in the Star Wars universe. LOUD AND CLEAR.

You know what? This one sucked. I think it sucked. A lot of people think it sucked. If you liked it, that's fantastic. But just leave it at that, OK? Stop trying to explain to me why I am wrong and you are right.

The bottom line is, a lot of people hated on the prequels because they just weren't very good films. There was no agenda about it. Are you old enough to remember the hype before Episode I? It was like nothing I have seen before or since. People wanted to love it, but it just wasn't a very good film. So GL can pout about that all he wants. If you make good films, people will enjoy them. If you make lousy films, people are going to call you on it.

No, you cannot please everyone, but the idea of saying 'People didn't like my movie, why bother?' is a cop-out. Just make a good movie, and you'll be amazed at how many problems disappear.

Anyway, welcome to the forums.

 

I agree that fans can be really terrible and I wish I knew how to fix it. I'm mainly only concentrated on myself in this since I can only fix myself. But it's a problem I've been thinking about for a while.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with voicing an opinion. Directors and producers are big boys and girls who make a lot of money for what they do. People should be able to express their opinions in a non-threatening, respectful manner. Now. anyone who can't be reasonable and level-headed about it needs to keep their trap shut. There's no place for threats and slurs and insults, no matter how disappointed you are.

If I could meet Rian Johnson right now, I would say 'Rian, all due respect, but I hated your movie. Hated every second of it.' If he can't handle that, that's his problem, not mine.

 

I wasn't a fan of TFA, and consider it weaker than the other movies. However, I wouldn't say I "hate it." Just ranks last in the pecking order. And it most definitely isn't the "worst thing ever."

 

I think it's pretty much impossible to please everyone to a level where there isn't a very vocal angry group who feel unsatisfied or who feel that the new works ruin the legacy of past works in some way. Star Wars means a lot to people and everyone sets different values to what they think is most important and why. You can't please them all. TFA tried and came close but was then criticized for being too familiar.

Some people love the prequels. Some think they're just horribly made, terribly acted special effects reels with little in the way of compelling drama and that they killed their childhoods and made Star Wars embarrassing to like as a result.

Many people love the OT. Some prequel fans who grew up on the prequels think they're too old and outdated and rank the prequels higher and don't understand how the flaws in the OT always get a free pass.

Some love that Star Wars is back, better acted than ever before, and exploring some new terrain in a blockbuster filmmaking era that's never had more highly rated competition. Others hate it both for being too close to the OT and therefore see it as a threat to the OT trying to one-up it, or see it as not close enough and too experimental now. Others think it should have only been about the old crew. And still others think it's too progressive and focused on social justice and not conservative enough.

Even just looking at those dynamics, which we've all seen around here from time to time, it's hard to imagine another fan base like this one with such divided opinions. I don't blame George. Nostalgia can make people dig in hard. You're dealing with multiple generations as well, which isn't common within most fandom.

 

In my opinion, the prequels just weren't very good. That's not being a hater, it's an honest opinion, and it is arrogant of any artist to think his vision is immune from criticism.

 

I like how only the people who didn't like the movie are vilified.

 

The thing about Lucas and the franchise is that for nearly two decades after the OT, he was always revered as the "father" of the SW universe which spawned a countless array of EU books from authors giving their own perspectives on things moving forward; with no promise of any sequel movies. Than the prequels came out, and the OT will forever be known as episodes IV, V, and VI. Add an animated series that, to the dismay of some of the old-school, hardcore fans, added a certain Togrutan corkscrew to the Skywalker saga, and you can understand why those fans who once revered Lucas are now ready for some fresh blood.

 

Mark's face in your avatar says it all, doesn't it? And WE are the ones who are crazy.

 

Prequels were terrible. George lost his ability to tell a good story. Sequels are much better. It's pathetic of George to blame it on the fans.

 

I think your right on the money about the vocal minority who hate certain Star Wars movies and It makes It difficult to make these films as a film maker. George Lucas got Death Threats for thinking about a two second cameo of NSYNC in Attack Of The clones which was totally ridiculous because would it have mattered if they were in the movie for two seconds? I actually think he did put them in and I even spotted the scene. The good news Is most fans have enjoyed these films over the years even the Prequels most people liked.

 

After watching TLJ, I felt like I owed Lucas an apology for, nitpicking a lot of the PT.

I think we undervalued his ability to "build worlds" and connect themes across 6 films. Something that the ST is struggling with in only 2 movies, IMO.

(ie. MAKING STAR WARS IS HARD)

 

It's the human condition. We're all independent people with valid feelings and opinions. Face it, being a fan of things exposes you to extreme vulnerability, because it makes you care so, so much. Surely you can relate to being let down by something you deeply love and whole-heartedly trusted... Maybe I am being overly emotional but at least it's coming from a place of sincerity. I'm only hurt because I allowed myself care so much in the first place. I really don't want to be hateful towards the creators or attack them in any way... But I would like them to know the honest impact they had on me for better or worse. Why should I lie to make other people feel better? Why should I have to silence myself on something I'm passionate about? Life's too short for this, we deserve to speak our minds openly.

 

Let's not confuse legit criticism of a film with personal attacks and death threats. If the passion didn't flow, GL wouldn't be a billionaire, would he? That's the price you pay. Some people are going to love you, and some people are going to hate you. You name one legendary rock band, and I will name you at least one album in their catalogue that divides the fan community, with one side saying it is pure garbage and the other saying it is an underrated masterpiece than some people 'just don't get'.

I think TLJ is destined to go down as the (if you are a U2 fan you will get this reference) 'Pop' of the Star Wars saga. Unfortunately, this film has damaged what came before and and what will come after, unlike one stinker of an album will do. You can release a crummy record this year and make another one that is completely free of whatever went wrong there. Not so with TLJ. It's stink is going to haunt the other films from now on, sadly.

 

Here's the thing: Star Wars is probably too big and too significant for its own good.

No matter what, everybody has their own ideas on what Star Wars is supposed to be and any deviation from that is a blasphemy against the holy texts.

That's not to say criticisms levied against the prequels, the sequels, the books, and what have you were never valid. Its just that Star Wars is SOOO big and SOOO important to SOOO many people, that even the slightest deviation from that might seem like a violation of something they hold to be pure.

Its like the fans expect something that is unattainable. Not perfection, but something that fits into that tiny little mark that is acceptable. Different, but familiar, fun and adventurous, but dark and dramatic.

Basically, trying to make a Star Wars film or story that pleases everyone might be impossible nowadays.

For example, I do remember the backlash against The Vong. They were radically different from anything that had been seen in the books before (which to me was a good thing. They needed a new conflict and a new threat). Give it a few years and the Vong have been around so long that now we have fans begging for them to make a comeback in the new canon.

Personally, I'm the type that wants different and wild things to happen. Be creative and break the rules. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't, but I'm open to new interpretations. I'm a Godzilla fan too, and that franchise has been around for over 60 years and I am always on the look out for something crazy to happen. I remember there was talks of doing a movie where Godzilla fights a "Ghost" of the original Godzilla from the 1st film and I'm like "Why hasn't this movie been made yet?!". Its crazy, a radical departure, but also opens up new possibilities.

 

there is also having an opinion and hyperbole taking it to far. saying a line like Lucas raped my childhood Is taking It to far, That Is hyperbole.
And IMHO saying any Star Wars movie Is the worst movie you have ever seen Is totally unfair and hyperbole obviously people who feel that way haven't seen a lot of films,
You ever see Svengoolie,

or Mystery Science Theater and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bad films out there,
you ever see Gigli,

 

But that's how it all starts all innocent like then it starts to get nasty.

 

I'm a fan of all 8 movies (err, 9 with Rogue one, oh wait, 11 with Ewoks, oh 12 if you add in Holiday Special? Is my math right, oh wait, also the Clone Wars movie, so 13 movies, so to speak). Well, fan might be the wrong word. I'm a fan of the Star Wars Saga. With the movies in particular, I'm a fan of most of them, while even the ones I enjoy less, I can like for certain scenes and concepts. I see merit in them all even when they might not be their best. I wish I could make my cut of them all so I could just watch the scenes I am interested in, lol, and skip the stuff that less interests me. One day I need to watch those Ewok movies, lol, I vaguely remember seeing them as a child, but they leave no impression on me, so that's on my to-do list.

Without debating the merits of the original trilogy, the prequels, or the new trilogy. the thing about Star Wars, it matters to people, a lot. It has stood a test of time and continues to capture people's hearts (I saw a little kid dressed as Kylo Ren at the theater the other day, I know he wasn't around back when Luke was blowing up the Death Star was first in the theaters, heck). So, debating the quality/plot points/direction/etc of the series is going to be more intense than say, the latest Transformers or Pirates movie (not a knock against those series, just blockbusters that came to mind while writing this post).

The making of the prequels did seem like a thankless job (what happened to Anakin is a tougher nut to crack than what's next for Star Wars and the numbering only gave George three movies to work with). Some of the stuff against George did get very personal and George's role as the father of Star Wars is a much different expectation than someone like JJ or Rian. I think Rian is handling the debate around The Last Jedi just fine, actually.

Also, if someone can't handle the pressure, Disney will just find someone else. Look what happened to those guys originally making Han Solo, they were canned because apparently they were wrong for the job and were making a mess of things or so I heard. My hope is every installment would add to the mythos, while Disney is obviously looking for a return on their investment. We'll see where things go. I just would like them to take some risks with the spinoff movies and not get bogged down in legacy characters exclusively.

 

But In your Opinion what film Is worse,
TLJ or,

 

Not really. The OT was every bit as vague as the ST is turning out to be.

 

I've never seen Gigli, and it wouldn't matter if I had, because I never said TLJ was the worst film I have ever seen; I said it was the worst STAR WARS film I have ever seen, and given that I care passionately about Star Wars. that hurt a lot worse than sitting through a bad romantic comedy.

 

Hey I never insinuated that you said it was the worst just a joke dude! One night back in the 1990's me and my sister and mom rented Gigli It was so bad we turned It off before the half way mark, subsequently I did the same for The Matrix turned it off not even half way through because I found It boring and confusing. still haven't finished the Matrix and don't plan to and I never saw the sequels. Talk about a bad film The Matrix, Cool Car though The Toyota Matrix!

Great Post I agree with a lot of It!

 

After seeing TLJ, I turned to my friend and said 'If Disney thought THAT was good, can you just imagine how bad those guys must have screwed up Han Solo?'