ST George Lucas was right all along about fans.

I started replying - But this post nailed what I was going to say 100%! Nothing else to add...

 

Give it a year; it was the same way after TFA and then large swaths of fans came to the conclusion it wasn't that good after beating up on people who disliked it from the get-go.

 

See, that right there is condescending. You have neglected to include the large group of people who don't like it because they think that it is a bad screenplay that needed a lot of work before it saw the light of day. You're saying that those who hate it are either (1) threatened; (2) living in the past; (3) making a political argument, when what I've overwhelmingly seen is that those who don't like it are saying "the script is bad" and backing it up pretty well.

You may not agree with them about it being a bad script, but you are setting up a situation in which you are looking at the film through the "correct" lens, and they are not, and that's both condescending and silly.

 

I think it became less that and more, "I know it's familiar. I know it's a soft reboot. I know it's a greatest hits of the beginning of the OT for a new generation and can understand why that bothers a lot of people more than I did initially."

 

There's another big fallacy out there: People are assuming that the same people who criticized TFA for being 'too safe' are the same people are saying TLJ was 'too experimental' and there is no reason whatsoever to say that, other than to undermine the criticism with a false premise. Yes, some people are going to complain just to complain. Me? My friends and I, who are in our early 40s and literally grew up with this thing? That's not us. That's not most people who are criticizing TLJ.

To be honest with you, speaking to your first post, you are 100 percent correct. When TFA was released, people were overwhelmingly positive of it and got on people who didn't like it pretty badly, but as time went on, it seemed TFA didn't age well with people. Personally, I loved TFA, other than the lack of Luke and Han Solo dying, even though I understand the reasons for both.

Anyway, this movie has been out for less than a week, and I am already sick and tired of my legit complaints being met with 'Oh, you are just an old fart' or 'Oh, you are just upset because they didn't follow your head canon' or 'Oh, you just can't stand a female lead or a black Stormtrooper'. I loved TFA. I thought it was a good movie. I hate TLJ, because I think it is a lousy movie, and that's really all there is to it.

 

Wasn't my intention. I was just pointing out the the most common groupings of fans I've noticed myself. Doesn't mean I hit on them all and I would hope that's obvious.

If there's one group focused on the actual filmmaking and script analysis than any other I'd probably think it's the critics to be honest and they love it. I think the script works well if viewed objectively from the perspective of, "Do these scenes move? Will these jokes, more often than not, work on a general audience? Is there tension? Is there drama?" If viewed on those terms and thinking about a large general audience primarily, comprised of multiple age demographics, the script works really well. Critics are less likely to penalize familiarity in an era of film-making dominated by reboots. They aren't going to stress out about what a character decision does to canon or their previous impression of a character from the OT. They're thinking about it more from the perspective of, "If somebody just watched TFA and then this" what would they think?" And I think that's probably a good way to think about these because for a whole generation of people on Earth this will be both their OT and their PT. Some people won't go back and dig into the crates to experience either of the old ones. So, to them... does this work?"

If viewed more subjectively it's obviously far more matter of opinion individually on what each person wants out of their screenplay and how much they, individually, connect with the humor or don't, or care about similar story beats or don't, or feel that there's a plot hole or isn't, or who had an idea of what they thought should happen, or didn't. We're all here because we are more in the second camp and each of us values different things. Heck, I think many of the people here probably even dabbled into some writing themselves and wishes they could have had this opportunity.

One of the reasons I'm personally very happy with TLJ is because when Disney first announced new Star Wars films one of my hopes was that some talented young filmmakers would be given the chance to make something a little offbeat, quirky, and different than what I'd seen in Star Wars before and I feel like Johnson has given me that in ways that I connect with and didn't realize I wanted in a Star Wars film but do. I love the tone and the sensation that Star Wars is moving into terrain I can't predict that well. That excites me like seeing the OT did when I was a kid.

 

The OT came first, so it is allowed to be vague with certain plot points. The ST is a sequel to the OT, so it can't afford to be vague on key plot points (ex. Snoke's background and the FO rise).

 

Even though I disagree with your opinion, I think your analysis about the reasons for the difference between the reactions of the critics and the fans are spot-on. I think the less a person is emotionally invested in Star Wars, the more they tend to like this film. It is visually fantastic. I thought the opening space battle was jaw-dropping. Crait was cool. Cantino Bight was gorgeous.

But that's where it ended for me. Star Wars isn't about blasters and lightsabers and ships. At the end of the day, those aspects are exciting, but the reason we are talking about this, 40 years later, is because because Star Wars has a sense of hope, and optimism and fun and excitement. Look at, for example. Rogue One, and how far out of their way the filmmakers went to make sure the ending wasn't a downer. They killed almost every new character we met, yet the last word of the film was HOPE.

I saw no fun, no sense of adventure, and no hope in TLJ. I saw a beautifully shot film burdened by a dour, emo, sadsack story that at the end of the day was kind of boring and disheartening and morally vague just for the sack of being 'edgy'. And worse, it was random and wild just for the sake of being unpredictable. And that pathetic ending with the kids playing Star Wars? That's supposed to make me forget the last 150 minutes of iconoclasm and death? Not on your life.

 

I love George, and I got his point, but there's a big difference between the so called backlash against TLJ and the very real backlash against the PT.

A lot of people are criticizing TLJ largely based on content. What actually happened. I've seen very few people knocking the actual quality of the film.
The PT was knocked more on quality vs content. A lot of anti-PT folks will even given GL credit for good ideas, but poor execution.

Diehard fandom can be the worst. But there are some things that George really, really should've done differently with the PT, and I say this as someone who doesn't hate that trilogy. There were rudimentary, basic filmmaking things that went wrong that I'm shocked they let pass.

I don't think it's comparable much to TLJ. It's a damn good film, with the critical reviews to support that idea. It's just very divisive.

Interestingly enough, I can only imagine that George might like it because of that quality.

 

For goodness sake. Yet another thinly disguised 'you can only really like this movie if you're not a real Star Wars fan' post. Followed by a checklist of entirely personal reasons why it's not a 'real Star Wars movie'.

 

Every claim in favor of the movie or against it should be weighed individually.

There are a lot of people who are bashing TLJ for reasons related to the quotes in your last paragraph though and we all know some of those people. Doesn't mean you're one, or that others posting here are one, but people who feel that way are absolutely a part of the no camp alongside you. Just as some people in the "yes" camp alongside me are probably half my age or less, newer to Star Wars in general, more supportive of this new saga in general now that it features some characters that they can better identify with, etc. Doesn't mean I'm like those people either.

It's a rich tapestry on both the yay and the nay side. The yay side just has more fun in life! I KID!

 

And yet another person putting words in my mouth. I said 'tend'. That's not a universal statement meant to cover everyone, BUT I think it is a legit point. How else do you explaining 93% v. 55% on Rotten Tomatoes? Hackers?

What's your theory?

 

Sorry y'all; not sure why that posted four times.

 

Who cares about 93% versus 55%? The RT online score is utterly meaningless. Look at our own poll on this forum. It's not scoring at 55% here and we're the hardcore fans. 129 voted 5/5 and 77 voted 4/5 versus 40 voting 1/5 and 52 voting for 0/5. This fan backlash isn't nearly as big as you think it is.

 

This backlash is real. And it's only going to get more real.

I like every Star Wars movie. I grew up with the OT. I enjoyed the PT and find ROTS to be my favorite film to re-watch when I can't decide on one. TFA I was less high on, but it felt Star Wars-y enough to make me enjoy watching it - and gave some cool new mysteries to ponder, to boot. I adored Rogue One.

The Last Jedi is the first Star Wars movie I have straight up disliked. I did NOT have head canon going in, I was excited to see where it would go and thought for sure I'd like it more than TFA's reboot. I'm also not that old, I'm 26. But, for the first time, being on the side that doesn't like the movie - I'm kind of....nervous. They are cleary taking Star Wars in a new direction. That's fine! I have expected that since 2012. But save it for the standalones, or Rian Johnson's new trilogy! This is EPISODE VIII, there are 7 other episodic films that came before it. When you label it as such, there are certain conventions and establish canon you need to ascribe to.

Hell, give me a crazy Han Solo film with all the slapstick humor you want, and I wouldn't care. Could be fun. But don't say you're gonna continue the Saga, and then **** all over it.

 

It is bigger than you think. Oh, Disney is going to have legit, built-in excuses when this film doesn't have the same box office returns TFA did. It is the middle of a three part story, and the second film in a trilogy is always the weakest one at the box office. That's true. It didn't have the same hype as TFA, since it had been 10 years since there was a new SW film. Also true.

However, the proof is going to be in the pudding. How many times did you see TFA? I saw it four times. How many times will you see TLJ? Maybe the same amount? I'm not going back. So there's three tickets they aren't selling right off the bat. As we were discussing earlier, TFA hasn't worn well with some people. IMO, the same is going to be true of TLJ. I think some fans feel backed into a corner right now. I can remember people furiously defending TPM when the critics were killing it. A year later?

Notsomuch.

To quote a now-insignificant SW villain: We shall see. We shall see.

 

I am completely with you on this. So far I have found that most of the defense of this movie comes down to three things. 1. You just wanted Empire remade you are made they are changing things. 2. You complained about TFA rehash and now you complain about this being different so you just complain about everything. or 3. You don't like how it tears down male heroes and replaces them with more diverse ones.

I'll take those in reverse. I loved TFA and RO and have ZERO issue with the idea of Luke/Han/Leia as flawed and failed heroes who didn't live up to their legacy. I am 100% on board with Rey and Finn and Poe I loved them in the first movie. I think both sets of characters were failed by a weak story and a weak script this time around. Rey becomes a side character in her own movie by the end of it. Finn is doing the same arc from TFA but worse. Poe just makes a bunch of terrible decisions the entire film and the plot doesn't help him out much. As for Luke. I was ready to be in on angsty old Luke, but the movie doesn't give enough of a reason for it. I wanted there to be something he had discovered, something he learned, that made him question the Jedi way and everything about it. It basically just comes down to him thinking about killing Ben Solo, which does seem pretty out of character. Neither him, nor Han, nor Leia ever seem that upset about the fact that the war they fought for years essentially meant nothing and gave way to something even worse(?).

As to the rest of it, I loved TFA and I hated this movie. And I also thought this one probably needed to different and not a retread like TFA was. TFA was a plot rehash but the characters felt fresh and new and I was really excited to see where they went with it. This was less of an original story and more of a scene by scene inversion of expectation. And I'm not for that. I'm not for subversion just for subversions sake. The film at the end of the day has nothing to say or add about this conflict or these characters. And at the end of it all we find ourselves still in a very similar place that we've been in before. It doesn't actually "change the saga" or any of that hyperbole. It has a few scenes where they throw out the possibility that things aren't what we think they are, that the Jedi need to end or that the First Order and Resistance aren't that different, but the movie doesn't commit to any of it and ends with the same boring conflict we've seen for the past 5 films.

That's why I'm annoyed about this movie. Not because it was different and not because it was the same. Becuase it was just bad. Plain and simple.

 

You should see it again, just because I know of many people who have transformed their opinions following a second viewing. For myself, things that irked me the first time really didn't seem that bad the next.

People appear to have decided they didn't like TFA much later mostly after they watched youtube videos telling them they shouldn't because it was a rehash.

 

I don't blame George for signing Star Wars over due to the personal attacks he got over the PT. The reason I'm not a huge fan of the ST is because those films don't have his unique creative vision. Personally, I like how the SW fanbase is so diverse in terms of opinions. There's no consensus, at least on these boards, as to which movie's the best and which movie's the absolute worst.

Nothing excuses death threats or anything like that towards a director of a film you didn't like but we should be allowed to call them out (in a civilized manner) when it's our opinion that they've made a bad decision.

 

I

I'm starting to think that perhaps the ST is becoming a soft reboot.

 

For goodness sake, yet another arrogant post that claims to own the one and only right point of view.

Me, in the 40ies as well, can tell you that the fascination of Star Wars was everything SaintKenobi1322 mentioned so far. This created the fandom and cult it is now. Where is such a fandom when it comes to Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Battlestar Galactica etc. etc.?

When TFA came out most of the people felt it as a love letter to the OT. You can find a lot of stuff that was not ok but it was a honor to the saga as such when it comes to story, character interaction and tone.
TLJ fails the tone, fails to fit to the saga, fails to meet the myth, does not even create questions/hidden things to talk about after seeing the movie and even more than this the basic mistakes of plot writing/logic in some points and directing are so horrible that it would not even fit to a B movie.

Now to Lucas: He got heavy critics about the story, dialogues and etc. But when looking at the PT with all respect the discussions at that time were two levels above on what we discuss now about TLJ. We discuss basic fails of writing and directing.
Further Lucas did those movies with love. All those cameos, tiny little things placed here and there just to be discussed or to be discovered by fans later on, etc. etc. - I understand that he was upset about the fan reaction given the fact how much effort he put to those films just to make people happy.
TLJ has literally nothing of this.

Just check a random blockbuster movie on youtube. As an example POTC. There are plenty of unlogic things, plot holes, continuity fails, etc. Most of those clips cover 7-10 fails in 5-8 minutes.
TLJ can fill half an hour+ with 25 fails easily.

This is one of the main issues of TLJ that people call it a lousy movie.

 

I understand Lucas to an extent. But fans are vocal, in ANY genre. Once you reach a gain a certain level of fanaticism its impossible to give a sufficient encore.

That being said, I thought the prequels could have been done a lot better. If nothing else, just the acting and some parts of the script.

 

I've been saying that the Prequels were good ideas just bad execution while the sequel trilogy has been bad ideas with good execution lol. People have their own ideas with what they think is good and bad though. You are never going to make a movie that pleases everyone. Just have to take the good with the bad and appreciate the franchise as best as you can.

 

Lucas was right whether or not the PT was good; his logic about not being able to please the fans and being vilified was spot on.

You will have those that hate no matter what. You will have less hate if you do the less creative thing and stick with what is already in the saga (e.g. TFA). Don't get me wrong, TFA was good, and that certainly got criticism from fans (see original premise regarding hate no matter what), but far less than a SW movie like TLJ that is willing to be different and go out on a creative limb.

Now you have individuals who look at things differently for different reasons all over the spectrum. But the larger point is really difficult logic to argue with because it is self-evident (and again, this is true regardless of which movies you may like or not like)- fans will hate SW movies no matter what, and vilify and tear down the makers no matter what; but they will do this less if you stick to the convention of the saga (in particular, the OT).

I think that idea really is creatively stifling and shouldn't be highly regarded. What you get if you stick with that idea is a string of carbon copy movies and nothing really original or creative, and nothing to take the movies in bold new directions.

The corporate entertainment world tends to be congruent with what pleases most fans- carbon copy everything that sells well. The problem is, you eventually beat it to death and it is like Rock music these days- like a dog that has been dragged behind a car at 60 MPH for endless hours. When was the last world-sweeping Rock music movement? It was a long time ago in the 90's, the whole corporate, carbon-copy-the-popular bit has killed Rock. I am actually surprised Disney allowed this movie, but I am very glad they did. It was the right thing to do creatively.

 

That, is sheer nonsense. The post doesn't claim any such thing, nor is it arrogant.

What is arrogant however, is proclaiming the own opinion to be what is right, and even more so to suggest that the more someone is a fan the worse his opinion of the movie is likely to be. That comment simply has nothing to do with reality.

People have different opinions, and with a fandom as big as the one Star Wars has, there is bound to be a huge amount of completely different ones. There are purists who only like the OT, there are people who didn't like the prequels but see an improvement with the sequels, there are people who loved the old EU and don't like what has come in its place, there are people who love the prequels or came into contact with Star Wars through the prequels and who don't like a different direction, just like there are some who like it. And then there are also those who have been happy with all of the movies, if maybe to differing degrees. The list goes on and on.

None of those fans are somehow superior to the other. Proclaiming that somehow people who like it must be more casual fans while those who are more "hardcore fans" will tend to not like this movie is the height of arrogance. If you dislike a movie, state that opinion, don't insult anyone's intelligence by suggesting that this has anything to do with how much someone is a fan (and that is true regardless of which SW-movie one is talking about). Just because there is one group of fans that doesn't like it, doesn't mean that there isn't another part of the fandom that loves it.

 

You are right. Why are you quoting only one line of my post and skipping the rest + the context of the last 2 pages of discussion?

Is it possible that you did not read the content of the approx. last two pages?

 

I think George's issue was less with criticism of the Prequels and more with the personal vitriol thrown at him and his life's work. People didn't just claim the films were bad, they began to claim that all of the faults with the saga were George's and none of the successes. They claimed he didn't actually care about the story, he only ever wanted to sell toys, and much, much worse.

When you hear that as a creator, it's really easy to give up...and that's exactly what he did.

And now we're seeing that not having GL involved doesn't make SW better. Some would actually argue it's made it worse. After TLJ, I'm personally missing his touch on these films. I miss the mythmaking. I miss each film being it's own epic. I miss the magic and the wonder. The ST after two films, IMO, feels disposable.