Re-watching Episode II, and I'm struck by the number of discoveries Obi-Wan made and how the Jedi failed to critically consider the questions they raised. Let's consider the facts (apologies for restating the plot of AOTC--I just want to emphasize the relevant parts) and from there extrapolate the circumstantial proof. Kenobi launches an investigation into the assassination attempt on Amidala. This leads him to Kamino (despite the fact that an unknown Jedi deleted reference to the system in the archives) where he unwittingly discovers that over 10-years earlier they began developing a clone army at the behest of an individual identifying himself as a Jedi Master Sifo Dias (the nefarious machinations are immediately clear because Dias was dead at the time and there was no authorization from the Jedi Council or senate). The clone source is the very bounty hunter that Kenobi suspects is behind the Amidala plot. He then tracks this bounty hunter to Genonosis where all of the Separatists are gathering and in fact later confirms Jango Fett's affiliation with Count Dooku. When Kenobi ultimately confronts Dooku, he claims that the republic is being run by the Sith lord who is orchestrating everything. I understand at this point (and maybe the obvious answer) is the dark side has clouded everything and diminished their ability to use the Force. And of course Dooku is the very definition of an unreliable source. But you don't need to wield the Force to think critically and logically. There are questions here that demand some meditation and reflection (which Yoda is big on). Namely: Which Jedi deleted the Kamino records and is this the same person who impersonated Sifo Dias? The most likely culprit of who would delete records has to be Count Dooku. An individual who not only left the Jedi order but also became the leader of an insurrection. If he deleted the records, does he have any connection to the person impersonating a Jedi and ordering an army? What is the significance of the army being ordered 10 years earlier? What was happening at that time of galactic significance (Palpatine's ascension to chancellor/Dooku leaving the Jedi order). Who in the Republic is presently pushing for a grand army? Palpatine. Who exactly is this Tyrannous who recruited Jango on one of the moons of Bogden? Why is Jango serving as the source for clone DNA while also working with Dooku (it can be explained as he is merely a mercenary getting paid by both sides--but his involvement with both armies--on the same day is stunning). And then there is the timing of the clone discovery. Jango's poison dart had distinctive markings that gave it away for Dex. In short, Kamino was meant to be found but at the right time. Certainly, not before the events of AOTC, hence deleting it from the archives. The use of a distinctive dart was deliberate. Fett had any means of killing her. He could have blasted her (and taken the Jedi out too). Instead, he shot her with something that could be traced back. Kenobi is led to the army at the precise time that the senate would consider a bill to authorize its use. And the biggest proponent of the army? The chancellor I'm not suggesting this is easy to sort out. But it seems they failed to critically evaluate a lot of puzzling questions. They immediately began relying on these clones who had suspect origins (to put it mildly, a Jedi impersonator using a bounty hunter hostile to the Jedi). Is it any wonder all of this resulted in Order 66? How can you trust an army when you don't know who is responsible for its creation? Apologize for this being long-winded and perhaps obvious. I was just struck by how they didn't seem to consider much of this.
I thought that Sifo-Dyas was actually the one who ordered the army? And then he was killed by Dooku afterwards.
Why would Sifo Dyas do that? I guess I always assumed it was Palpatine, Dooku or one of their agents.
Why would Sifo Dyas do that? I guess I always assumed it was Palpatine, Dooku or one of their agents.
In the EU, Sifo-Dyas was convinced that there was a big conflict on the horizon, and he was convinced by Banking Clan mogul Hego Damask (secretly Darth Plagueis, which Sifo-Dyas did not know) to order a Clone Army for the Republic with the funds from the Banking Clan.
Yes, this is a very contentious topic that has been much debated. There are others that have said much more on this before, but I'll throw my hat in the ring. First, to correct one thing. Palpatine wasn't pushing for the creation of an army. He was relying on his negotiations. As the Chancellor, he was leaving it up to the Senate to vote on. Only after he "reluctantly" agreed to the emergency powers did he promise to create an army to counter the increasing threats of the Separatists & Commerce Guild etc., which they had just received intel on via Kenobi. The only person on-screen advocating an army was Ree Yees' cousin , after the intel came in. Now to an area that's not as cut & dry as you might think. They're aren't sure if Sifo-Dyas died before the order was placed or after. He died around that time. Another one. Whether Jango deliberately used the Kaminoan dart to lure the Jedi there is also very debatable. I for one can't imagine he planned on the Jedi chasing Wessell down and him needing to silence her. There were probably better ways of leaving clues. And how would he know Kenobi knew Dex who would know about the markings? There's more, but I feel it's more likely they didn't do it deliberately. It was just serendipitous timing. (also. I'm not so sure about blasting anyone accurately from that range). This is what I would say makes him the least likely candidate, and probably the biggest stumbling block to them figuring it out. Why would somebody create an army for their opponents to oppose their army? Maybe that sounds weird to a viewer who knows what the characters don't know, but it's not typically a logical scenario. Other questions like who is Tyrannus, what happened to Sifo-Dyas, Jango's connections etc. are answered by the killing of Jango before they could question him further, the shroud of the dark side and Dooku covering his tracks like a boss, well as best as he could-- Yes, as Darth Weavile mentioned, in the books and cartoons-(canon), Sifo-Dyas foresaw a coming war and tried to convince the Council to prepare for it by creating an army. They thought his ideas were too extreme and dismissed them. This explains why they might assume it might have just been Sifo-Dyas who was connected to the order of the army after all. In the cartoon the mystery surrounding his death is explored along with other details. Most of all, to answer the question in the thread title, in the last season of TCW they do figure out it was Dooku who ordered the army as they unravel the entire mystery. But as we see, and they eventually see, they have been pincered into this position by the Sith and the only thing left to do is ride the war out and hope they defeat the Sith before their plan comes to fruition. What would they have done if they had figured it out? Yoda sums it all up best here (whether in the context of the cartoon or not): Yes, and Padmé thought Dooku was behind her assassination attempts. Perhaps they should've been listening more to the wisdom of the "people" like Obi-Wan did with Dex, and to the wonder of the mind of the children. If you think about it, the younglings plus Dex kind of equals Anakin. The every-man with the eagerness to love and form attachments. The kids and Dex helped them expose the lingering problem over on Kamino, while Anakin exposed some of the aspects of their ways that were exploited by the Sith.
They may meditate and reflect all they want, but at the end of the day, evidence is needed and lacking. Dooku did, because we (the audience) have information the Jedi don't have. He pretended to be Sifo-Dyas (who was known to be dead around the time the order was placed). What do you mean with "significance"? There's no particular significance. It was 10 years earlier, so the first batch of clones is battle-ready. ?! Not really. As seen in the movie, the senate is divided on the issue, and when they finally aprove the army, Palpatine pretends to reluctantly accept for the time being. It's in the movie: "Welcome home, Lord Tyranus." - Darth Sidious Again, information the Jedi don't have access to, but we do. It's not on the same day. Jango was hired 10 years earlier for that job. Kamino is simply where he resides on his off-time. As a bounty hunter, him working for Dooku is simply his latest job. You mean Obi-Wan was meant to consult an old friend he happened to have, who happened to have a prospecting job on Subterrel once and who probably could identify a Kamino saber dart? We don't know wether Kamino was meant to be found or not. We do know it was going to be found when the Sith wanted to. Be it by the Jedi on their own (as it ended up being) or, for example, by them ordering the Kaminoans to contact the Republic for delivery. The Jedi (and we too) had no way of knowing wether the dart being traceable was deliberate or not. Either way, it's speculation. Not evidence of anything. As I've pointed out above, as far as the Jedi and virtually everyone but us, the Chancellor wasn't a proponent of the army. The questions do exist. They are puzzling. The Jedi know that more than anyone. But then what? How exactly are they at fault? What do you expect them to do? Speculate? Act on what, exactly? It's easy to blame the Jedi when they don't have the omniscient view that we have. They don't have anything. That's the whole point, the Sith plan is meant to leave them in the dark. The origin was Kamino. Whoever placed the order is what's a mystery. And it's the Republic who decides to use the clones. And only because there was an impeding Separatist attack against a defenseless Republic. That's hindsight bias. It is a wonder, except to us who are following the machinations and actions of the villains. They do know. The Kaminoans are responsible for its creation. Who ordered it is what's a mystery.
Obi-Wan said "I thought he was killed before that" The Databank makes it clear that, in the Disneyverse just as in Legends, Sifo-Dyas lived long enough to place the order - with the Sith murdering him after he commissioned the order for the army: http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas Dooku may have masqueraded as Sifo-Dyas shortly afterward - but Sifo-Dyas was involved in the initial stages.
Yes, hence why I said "around that time". The exact timing of his death is a mystery on purpose, so that the Jedi could consider the possibility that he could have placed the order. He didn't place any order, hence why it was stated that someone wanted to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas. So that the order could (allegedly) be placed by him and later on shift the dealings to Tyranus. Even going by the movies alone, everything points towards Dooku. No Jedi could even afford to pay for an army. Dooku is a Count, he's nobility and therefore has the means to pay for it. He was Jedi once (explains the archives and using a dead Jedi as a fake identity), he's Darth Tyranus (explains who hired the template) and timed his Separatist attack against the Republic once the army was ready to be used. Only the circunstances aren't explained. But then again, they are not necessary to be known for us to understand what's going on considering what the story is ultimately about.
The whole point of mentioning that Sifo-Dyas thought the Republic needed an army (which was why he got kicked off the Council) - is to show that he had the motive to be involved. Whether or not Dooku stole his identity, he wanted an army - he was trying to get one. As Wookieepedia's canon page for him puts it: When he foresaw a coming war that would ravage the galaxy, he believed that the Galactic Republic would require an army if it were to prevail. Yet, his peers on the Jedi Council rejected his notions, leading to his removal from the Council. Nevertheless, he pursued his ideas in secret and contacted the Kaminoan cloners, purporting to have the authorization of the Council and the Galactic Senate to raise an army for the Republic. In doing so, he unknowingly entered the crosshairs of the Sith, who set out to assume control of his cloning project. Him being the completely innocent victim of Dooku's frame-up - is out of the question.
I always liked that explanation better. More interesting that SIfo-Dyas's fear led him to place the order and then he was betrayed as part of Dooku's turn.
First time I saw Attack of the Clones, I was perplexed by the name Sifo-Dyas. It sounds like a weak attempt to cover up the name "Sidious", but then Obi-Wan mentioned that there was a Jedi Master by that name. And then the Jedi just didn't follow up on it after the Battle of Geonosis. OK, you have this clone army ordered under shady circumstances, and Obi-Wan was told that a Sith Lord was in charge and they just decided not to follow up on any of that. Alrighty then.
Not really. Silman told Obi-wan and Anakin that the reason Sifo-Dyas was killed was that Dooku wanted to become him. He was definitely framed based off of his controversial ideas that the Council disagreed with. But based on what Silman said, he didn't live long enough to be involved, regardless of what the databank says. The Jedi did follow up, it just took two years to find out that the Sith created the army, but they couldn't do anything. And the Jedi do start to investigate Palpatine in ROTS.
I still don't understand where people get this idea that the Jedi never followed up on it. Why would you think that? The most logical conclusion is that they did follow up on it and couldn't get any farther than what they already know at the end of Attack of the Clones: The Kaminoans believe Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, Sifo-Dyas may or may not have been dead at that time, Jango Fett says a man named Tyranus recruited him and he's never heard of Sifo-Dyas, Count Dooku says a Sith Lord is influencing Senators but he might be lying. What are they supposed to do with all this information if it's all that they have? Now TCW reveals that the Jedi did follow up after they got a new lead, learning that Count Dooku is in fact the mysterious Tyranus and was involved in the creation of the clone army (whether or not it's true, Dooku claims he conspired with Sifo-Dyas). But it's not necessary to know any of that for Episode III to make sense.
Silman appeared to have gone nuts though - makes sense that he'd have a partial but not complete understanding. Does The Lost Missions Q&A shed more light on it? The Databank had to have gotten its info from somewhere.
Of course Silman doesn't know the whole plot, but what he was telling was the truth, hence why Dooku killed him when he was about to reveal who wanted to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas.
The databank was still trying to rely on what was said in AOTC and combining it with what was in LOE. But even though Silman's mental facilities weren't at optimal, he did seem to be coherent when he tells the Jedi about what he witnessed after his ship crashed and when Dooku had said. Note that in the Council meeting at the end of "The Lost One", they say that the Sith had created the Clone Army. Not Sifo-Dyas.
Mostly because, regardless of the exact extent of Sifo-Dyas's involvement (which they're not certain of), Tyranus AKA Dooku is more involved - being the guy who hired Jango.
I think the name Tyranus could have thrown them off. Plus it was implied the Jedi didn't believe Dooku could have been distorted to such evil, as we see Ki-Adi Mundi immediately dismiss Padme's thought
The Lost One (TCW Season 6) is the moment the Jedi get convinced that Tyranus is Dooku - when the Pykes openly call Dooku Tyranus in front of Obi-Wan and Anakin when they are fighting Dooku.
