ST Over-reactions to The Last Jedi

This isn’t intended to be a thread about how good or bad TLJ is. I’ve only seen it once so far, initially I was hugely disappointed and have been trying to get my head around it ever since. I know I need to see it again, partly because people have said it works much better the second time, and partly because I think I disengaged from the film quite early on, so I might not have appreciated the good parts as much as I should. It was not the film I wanted or hoped for, but I’m open to changing my mind about its overall quality. But regardless of my disappointment, I just want to express my frustration and bemusement at the extreme over-reactions to this film. Obviously, the personal abuse and death threats aimed at RJ are disgusting and childish. But even a lot of the people who would never stoop so low have still indulged in some hysterical over-reactions and hyperbole, as though the film was a personal insult to them. If you’re expecting something great and it’s part of a saga that’s important to you, and they produce something you don’t like, then disappointment and frustration is natural - I felt it myself. But sometimes they just make a movie you don’t like – some can’t seem to accept this and have become very self-righteous, talking as though they have been personally betrayed, or some fundamental moral principle has been broken - with comments suggesting that RJ hates the fans, the whole ST is just a cash grab, or there’s a sinister Disney conspiracy to deliberately alienate older fans and replace them with newer ones. Some people seem to love making sweeping statements and wild accusations against everyone involved. Just because they made a movie you didn’t like, it doesn’t mean any kind of moral principle has been betrayed or there is any kind of conspiracy – they just made a movie you don’t like. And of course, with everything having to be so extreme, it’s not just a disappointing film after TFA, or a film with some flaws, it has to be described as one of the worst films ever, with nothing good in it whatsoever.

I feel sorry for RJ in that he is being accused of hating the fans and not even being a SW fan himself – he clearly loves SW and has just tried to create a movie that encapsulates his vision of SW. Just because it doesn’t line up with other people’s own vision, he is being accused of ruining Star Wars and all kinds of betrayal and cultural vandalism. It’s just all so over the top. If you really don’t like TLJ that’s fine - just try to see it like I see the prequels. Many people have said that it’s not so much the general story arc of TLJ that they have a problem with, it’s the execution. Well I’m not a fan of the prequels, but I do recognise that some of the ideas are good - just not well executed. But they are still Star Wars, still part of the saga…it’s just a part that I’m not particularly fond of. People who are disappointed with TLJ should maybe try and see it in this context. Also if you’re thinking that TLJ has somehow ruined SW forever, just think about all of the other new canon material that is being produced. If you’re losing enthusiasm for the saga films, how about the anthology films, or Rebels, or the novels? Then in the future there’s the live action TV series, and possibly another animated series. And because all of these things are being made by different people, in different eras and with different styles, there’s bound to be something in there you’ll like. I think it does a great disservice to the many talented people who are working for and with Lucasfilm to create new worlds, characters and stories if you just write it all off as worthless and suggest they’re not interested in quality. I mean even just looking at the visual dictionary and art books for TLJ shows the amount of work that’s been done and the detail they’re going into to expand the universe. For me TLJ is the first real mis-step in the new canon, but it doesn’t invalidate everything else, or mean that everything about the film itself is bad.

It’s been interesting to see some of the reactions from the different sides of the debate that has been an underlying theme on here since before TFA even came out. Without wishing to generalise too much, there are those who I’d describe as George Lucas ‘loyalists’, who will always defend the prequels and have generally been sceptical towards the sequel trilogy since the beginning. On the other side there are those who are not big fans of the prequels and are generally positive about the sequel trilogy. The former have generally hated TLJ, whereas the latter have generally either loved it or tried to focus on the positive things about it. It’s interesting that the roles now seem to be reversed, where previously the prequel fans have turned a blind eye to their flaws and only focussed on the good stuff, but are now criticising TLJ for the same things that the other side criticised the prequels for – while the other side are trying to talk up the positives of TLJ and dismiss much of the criticism. I think a lot of this comes down to the non-involvement of George Lucas. The ‘loyalists’ seem to take the position that anything produced by Lucas is inherently good, and some now seem to be of the belief that anything not produced by Lucas is not ‘real’ Star Wars (I suppose there’s a certain logic here, but if you subscribe to this viewpoint it is very restrictive and makes watching or discussing any of the new material pointless, since it doesn’t even constitute ‘real’ Star Wars).

Sorry this getting a bit rambling now but what I’m getting at is that I think there are some double standards at play here. If George Lucas had written or directed TLJ, I can pretty much guarantee that the ‘loyalists’ would be on here defending it to the hilt. Now I know they would say that he would never produce a film like TLJ, but he does have a history of producing SW films that do many of the things that TLJ has been criticised for - introducing concepts regarding the Force that we hadn’t seen before and which don’t seem to ‘fit’ SW (e.g. midichlorians, a virgin birth); misplaced or failed attempts at humour (e.g. Jar Jar Binks, Anakin and Obi-Wan’s ‘banter’, C-3P0 on Geonosis); things which contradict earlier films (e.g. Leia remembering her mother in ROTJ, Owen Lars barely knowing Anakin despite the way Obi-Wan talks about them in ANH); characters acting in ways which seem unlikely or illogical (e.g. Padme falling in love with Anakin despite his stalker-like behaviour, mildly fascist views and episodes of mass murder); events which stretch credibility too far even for a SW film (e.g. an eight year old surviving a space battle and taking out the enemy flagship, Anakin and Obi-Wan ‘flying’ on Coruscant).

Similarly, if someone other than George Lucas had introduced those concepts and characters, and produced films as flawed as the prequels – i.e. if they had been made after he sold up to Disney - I’m pretty sure those ‘loyalists’ would be tearing them apart and accusing them of ‘ruining’ Star Wars. It’s just double standards. And if all of those mis-steps didn’t ruin Star Wars, I’m pretty sure TLJ won’t.

 

The thing about George Lucas is that he completed his Star Wars Saga a long time ago and with a happy ending. Flaws and all, Lucas did created Star Wars and was the man behind all six movies. And he has a sort of consistency that makes Star Wars quite unique among sci-fi fantasy. You can see it in The Clone Wars where he approves or vetoes ideas from Dave Filoni and crew. I heard that they wanted Plo-Koon and Grevious fight in outer space, but Lucas vetoed it on the grounds of being too reaching (which says a lot). And for many, this is the ideal scenario where Lucas is the grand visionary who lays out his ideas and his people will do their best make these ideas work and relatable to the audience. He was also much bolder in terms of designs and power dynamics regarding the Star Wars universe. This is one of the fears that "loyalists" had when Lucas is not even a creative consultant for the new films (though Rebels didn't have that problem because Dave Filoni, Lucas' own Padawan, was in charge of that series).

The thing is that Lucas doesn't want to make ST after dealing with prequel reception from the fans. What he did was essentially coming up with several ideas for the ST, then have someone work out a script, and have an entire crew make the film akin to how he once did it with TESB. His ideas are great, but needs competent people to execute them well. So when we hear that apparently his original treatments have scrapped and each episode is made up completely different directors with different visions in what is supposed to be a consistent narrative follow up to the Star Wars Saga, we would be rightfully worried. Especially if it overrides the happy ending of ROTJ by Lucas and that the filmmakers believe that the best way to continue ROTJ is to take the window dressings of OT without making it meaningful.

You can make several hypothetical what ifs in Real Life, but that is asking to create a different Lucas and hypothetical scenarios that cannot be answered. We can't visit an alternate Lucas and Star Wars and see how our receptions will differ in another universe. But we can try to understand our Lucas and our Star Wars movies. And what Lucas has actually said and who made what in ST.

 

I can't speak for others, but I don't think it's accurate or fair to say that whether fans like or dislike a movie comes down to which faction of the fandom they happen to belong to. I'm sure that even the most ardent George Lucas supporters went into TLJ hoping to see a great movie. And as far as I can tell a lot of the most passionate haters of the new movie tend to be fans of Luke and the OT who don't like his treatment in the story, more so than prequel or Lucas fans specifically. For myself, I share a lot of their complaints about the characterization of Luke and what it means for the legacy of the OT 3, but even so I think that it was by far the most compelling part of the film, the rest of which seemed disjointed and meandering to me.

 

I’d hope that if there’s one thing all Star Wars fans can agree on is that it’s been pretty darn impossible to please everyone for quite a long time.

Some felt ROTJ was too kid centric and that Harrison checked out and that only the Vader and Luke and Emperor content elevate it.

Some felt the special editions ruined the OT.

Many believed Lucas lost his touch with the prequels and that they were a mess of concepts poorly acted and in some cases closer to a 2 paragraph Wikipedia entry on life prior to the OT brought to life via video game cut scenes and less an actual drama with emotion and tension and stakes and structure that could stand on its own without the carrot being dangled that this would all lead to the boy becoming Vader. The general consensus is that ROTS was the best of them and nearly good enough to make the entire excercise worth it but even that film, which I personally enjoy, still angered many who hate imagining pouty, hockey player jock Hayden in the Vader suit. I don’t but I know some do.

For years I heard about how it would be great if Lucas handed off the reigns and then he did and I’m not at all surprised the new content continues to divide.

The movies — beyond perhaps Rogue One — are sticking to the formula Lucas established with ROTJ’s Ewoks and continued through the prequels. Aim mostly targeted at the kids through young adults demographic first because their interest will drive toys and merchandise, aging fanboys/fan girls second, and make it fun enough and exciting enough that casual observers and general audiences also have fun.

 

Unfortunately we live in an age of troll culture & the hypocrisy is amazing & baffling......

 

Overreact? This fandom??
Nahhhhhhhh.

Star Wars fans overreacting since 1983 -- ewoks. Or since 1999 -- the age of jar jar, midichlorians and "yipee"

 

This is a bad film. Some fans cannot accept that, so they attribute the negativity to 'troll culture'. Motivated reasoning all the way. People do not like this film. Get used to the fact.

 

Oh I know people do not like it. I accept it but choose to look past it and enjoy/love it the way I do/did.

And how can you not attribute it to troll culture when some people refuse to think or evaluate the film critically? I've seen some well structured debates here but for every intelligent thought regarding the film (in either a positive or negative review) there are several people with nothing more to offer than "it sucks." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If one doesn't want to look like a troll, then don't act like one.

But the anonymity of the Internet lends itself to their proliferation. And others, myself included, are guilty of not being able to help ourselves from feeding them.

So I'm armed and ready. Who wants a cookie?

 

To be fair, those who say "It sucks. Worst movie ever" are no different than those who say "To hell with the haters. This is the best movie ever" (which I've seen a lot as well). Neither gives any solid reason for why they feel the way they do. Neither seem to be willing to see the other side as well.

 

You seem to be an objective fella.

I'll just say while I agree with you that some defenders have trouble wrapping their mind that there are reasonable people who loathe TLJ, you're on the other end of the spectrum. Yes, there are longtime fans that have legitimate gripes with the choices in this film. But to say unequivocally that TLJ is a bad film and you implying most people think it, when it's highly critically acclaimed, high audience cinemascores, and the second fastest grossing movie domestically, is a pretty bold move.

 

Each and every person who’s seen TLJ has an opinion about it..
I’m a huge fan, love it to bits and I congratulate Rian on his achievement.
Just a tad little less comedy though, some of it just wasn’t necessary...Finn awaking and the slapstick that ensues being an eg of what I mean.
After all, timing is the art of comedy. It needs to be sporadic and unexpected.
In ESB for eg, the comic moments are perfectly timed.

 

Exactly. If you like The Last Jedi you are an idiot that doesn't understand Star Wars, and if you don't like it you are a hater fanboy who thinks someone ruined your childhood.

Insane.

 

It’s all this ‘hate’ thing I just don’t get. Such negativity.
You dislike the film and it’s just not your cup of tea, fair enough.

 

The hypocrisy in your words is phenomenal.

 

"Apology accepted, Captain Needa."
And people said Lord Vader didn't have a sense of humor when he told Krennic not to choke on his aspirations.

 

This a great film. Many people DO like this film. Get used to the fact.

 

“This is a bad film. And some fans cannot accept that.”
I mean really? You actually wrote that?? Oh boy..

 

What I really dislike about it:

The First Order characters suck.

The whole tempo, we got climax after climax but none of them are strong enough.

 

Sir! sir I’ve isolated the negative power flux coupling..

 

I disagree in that one is way more toxic than the other. But I agree neither is useful.

 

Over-reaction comes from the two opposite sides. There are hateful haters and annoying "watched this movie 7 times - its the greatest movie of all time" ****ers.

 

Wrong. Its not a bad film. You just don't like it. And that's fine.

 

I honesty think both sides have their toxic elements. There has been a lot of name calling across the board (not here really, but on twitter and FB it is everywhere).

Calling people a 'crybaby' is the new 'snowflake' level insult I keep seeing. I am so tired of it and it has only been two weeks.

 

As a StarWars fan who has looked forward to every movie with anticipation, watched every movie at theatres probably at least 10 times. Owns all the movies on VHS, DVD and BlueRay and defended them against all nay sayers whilst dragging every family member and every friend along to see Starwars whilst only owning StarWar themed t shirts and naming a child and dog after StarWar characters... When you walk out of your first SW movie that you hated it so much you found it difficult to sit through and won't ever watch again it is a MASSIVE shock to the system. An unexpected shock.

To then wonder how you can feel that way and then be told your not a real fan for not liking it sucks. When other fans persist in arguing that its the best SW movie ever leaves you wondering how you could have been so out of step with the consensus and on a different page for your appreciation of the story.

However the thing is that none of that changes for one second how you feel about the movie. The Last Jedi could have been the best StarWars movie ever. For me it wasn't. A lot of the internet seems to have similar reservations.

 

I appreciate your perspective.

The way I see it, there are a lot of ultra passionate fans in the Star Wars fandom. We are NOT a lukewarm group of people and there are both upsides and downsides to that. I do take these stories personally. That's why it's so difficult to have a moderate "adult" opinion on The Last Jedi, we allowed ourselves to care about it to an extreme degree. Therefore, we're now seeing everyone's extreme responses. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is one of the main quotes I live my life by:

And the flip side can get pretty ugly, I'll admit...