ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

This so much. The writers keep referring to them as two halves of our protagonist, two sides of the same coin, yin & yang. By accepting and uniting the dark and the light, they can achieve balance in the Force, thus create peace.

 

Agreed. She knew about Luke saving Vader. She saw she could do the same with Kylo. But Kylo is not Vader, and Vader’s issues weren’t Kylo’s issues.

Rey wants to know why Kylo killed his father, why he hated. But did Rey actually understand Kylo’s answer? Ok, Kylo wants to kill the past so much that he’s willing to kill his father in cold blood (vs, say, in anger or hate).

Do any of us know why Kylo wants to destroy the past, or what’s been driving him? Rey doesn’t. I don’t. We haven’t gotten an answer to that, yet. And without a canon answer, and considering what Rey learned in TLJ, I don’t think we can assume Rey understands Kylo at all.

(I do think she empathises with his feelings of loneliness, to a degree. But that’s a far cry from understanding him.)

 

I think that union between Rey and Kylo (whether romantic or not) is the magical, transcendental sort of ending for the ST that would be on par with (or even more moving than) the ending of ROTJ and Vader's transformation. It really might not be this matter of if Kylo is "redeemed" or not. It could actually be that Rey and Kylo together restart the Jedi Order.

Whether the story will go there, I don't know. But that this is one of the possible outcomes is something it wouldn't be wise to ignore, IMO.

 

Actually there are many of us who see it this way.

Dark Side users rely on rage, anger and fury to increase their strength. This includes force-choking, lightning and throwing anything towards the opponent that he cannot fight against. A good example is Vader vs Luke in Bespin (TESB), Dooku against Yoda in AOTC, Palpatine against Mace Windu in ROTS.

If you notice Kylo Ren's fight style, he uses brute strength, vicious, fast counterattack agaist Finn in TFA and then his fists. Worthy of Han Solo's son.
And in the fight against the Pretorian Guards he attacks again with raw strenght, some speed and brawling so typical of Han Solo's style. No lightning, no force choking, no objects flying, hardly any shouting.
Then there's the fight against Rey in TFA, where he is doing his best not to harm her in the least, disarm-only mode. Blow after blow, strong but slow, centered, coming from above aimed at making her lose balance and weapon.

Then look at Rey. The TFA novelisation states very clearly that, while he tries to dominate the fight with his physical size, she draws her strength from her fury, very dark sideish:

"Her skill with the device was raw at best, but it was backed by a fury that was as new to his experience as it was unexpected."

"Though Ren was bigger and stronger than Rey, their struggle had nothing to do with physical size. What she lacked in mass, she made up for in ferocity."

"The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses. Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out toward his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him."
- Alan Dean Foster The Force Awakens - Chaper 23

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence. Never to attack" - Yoda, TESB

In the fight against the Pretorian Guards Rey shows her teeth and screams quite a lot actually.
So yes, his style has more fair play than hers.

 

Yeah, that relationship is the key and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. They didn't need to set it up the way they did and have both characters empathize with each other to such a degree that they both defy their masters for each other, with both of them believing that the other would switch sides for them. But ultimately, this is not a story of a man being saved from the dark by a woman or a woman being seduced to the dark by a man, although Rey and Kylo are both tempted by each others dark and light respectively. But their connection is profound and genuine based on what we've heard from Rian, Daisy and Adam. They have a more complicated relationship now...

 

The "accepting and uniting" part is what I have an issue with, I don't want to accept evil. But:

The way I've reconciled it is, the less ills in a given situation, the lesser the potential to do good - eg. rescuing someone from human trafficking is a very good thing, which wouldn't happen if there was no human trafficking; all war heroes, war sacrifices, that are "good", wouldn't be necessary if not for the horrors of war, that the heroic person wants to stop.

So "we don't want too much of either" seems sort of valid to me now that I think about it, as in, we don't want people to need sacrificing and fighting for justice in the galaxy too much, because there's already peace and justice, and not enough evil to warrant all the good and heroism needed to stop it.

That way, it's the dark that upsets the balance, and "light rising to meet it" is "good", but not as good as no darkness in the first place. In fact the very notion of the fight between light and dark implies suffering/pain/war.

As far as their mutual temptation with each other's side is concerned, there's huge potential. And I'd love to see something nuanced, not a simple "blow up the FO to bits" resolution.

 

That's not nobility, he wanted to prolong hurting Finn, JJ's words. Also....he killed an unarmed old man at the beginning of the film and ordered the death of an entire village so let's not pretend he's secretly nobel.

Darkside also fuels aggressive action, and his fighting style was excessively brutal during that conflict.

He wanted Rey alive per his masters orders, so he works not to cause any permenant damage. Further more he wants her to join him, so showing just how little chance she has against him fits that criteria

Not at all, as seen by his fight with Luke at the end of TLJ. Kylo Ren HATES Luke and it shows through clearly in this fight. Luke makes no agressive motions towards Kylo at any point and Ren flies at him nearly in a blind rage.

 

@Jamarn Santill But there's such a thing as both dark and light in a person - the writers said that Ben was born with equal parts dark (evil) and light (good) - sort of like The Prime Jedi who achieved balance by accepting both sides in him - but in Ben's case, he was targeted from the beginning (from the birth, or even from the womb) and manipulated toward the predominately darker side because Snoke knew he was to become incredibly powerful in the Force and wanted him as an ally. So, with Snoke's influence gone, will he begin to gravitate toward his natural state of balance (because all things seek balance), which is equal parts dark and light, a middle ground? Right now, he's predominately dark with the pull to the light and Rey is predominately light with a pull to the dark. But Rey has those dark tendencies as well, as seen in all of her fighting scenes for example - she behaves more like Sith than Jedi in battle - baring teeth, snarling, aggressive and violent - but also, she's willing to go to the dark (as in the dark cave) when she needs something.

 

Yah, we'll disagree here. He wss perfectly willing to cut down Luke in a rage when Luke was just standing there. Rey fights with passion for sure, and maybe flashes of dark, but that doesn't make Kylo somehow moree "jedi-like." in TFA he was trying not to harm her because Snoke had instructed him to bring her to him. And he certainly was willing to use the Force for attack. He even used the Force to kill Snoke with a sucker-punch attack. C'mon... Kylo is not in the least Jedi-like.

 

I think the idea is that the darkness is a fundamental part of nature and the universe (destruction, decay, death, predation, aggression, violence, repulsion, hatred). Human beings can't exist in this tangible form with no darkness in them. If you imagine a human that is only sweetness and light, incapable of aggression or violence, it's half a being rather than a whole one. It also wouldn't have the necessary traits to survive in the tangible world. It wouldn't be able to fight back against predators or fight to defend its young, it wouldn't be able to bring itself to hunt for food. The realities of the natural world require some darkness for survival. If we all lived in some perfect heaven it would be otherwise, but that is not the way the world works. Also in this context none of this darkness is "evil" IMO. Evil is more like Darth Sidious who basically wants to only use his dark inclinations and eradicate the light inside him. Evil is more like all darkness without the light to balance it.

Though for this reason, I also think that Kylo has to go much farther towards the light in any "union" unless there is some way that he can be representative of "darkness" without being "evil." In the Mortis arc, it seemed Daughter was light and Son was darkness. Son wasn't a problem until he disrupted the balance of his family and wanted to take over the galaxy (that is when he became evil).

But Rey is not as light as Daughter, and Kylo is too dark.

 

She WAS willing to go to the dark...but that decision lead to her greatest failure to date, and by the end of the film she seems to be starting over "Lift Rocks.". Conversely Kylo, without Snoke's influence, has seemingly dedicated himself to slaying the past and taking power. He sought to destroy the Resistance, the Falcon, Luke and even Rey and it's only when he fails to do any of it, that he seems briefly lost. Once again Kylo Ren has embraced the Dark Side...and once again he has failed.

 

I don't think we really know where either Rey or Kylo are going. I think it's up to interpretation. You could say Kylo is going more dark, but that's ignoring the end of the movie in which Luke gives him a lesson and he's left holding Han's dice after Rey kicked his *** to the curb, so to speak. Rey OTOH didn't actually learn anything about her tendency towards the dark AFAICT. I don't think she regrets going to the dark side cave. I don't think she has any problem with how she fights and the aggression that comes out because she believes she's fighting for the right thing. The biggest change I see is that Rey and Kylo have the opportunity to understand one another better after this (though they could also go the other way and refuse to understand the other).

Oh and I'd add that the Force theme played when Rey and Kylo touch hands and that's really important IMO. So I wouldn't be surprised if Rey comes up with an ideal solution at the end of IX. Her lesson from VIII isn't necessarily learning all her ideals are nonsense. What kind of story would that be? Luke's OT story wasn't learning how to not trust his ideals and intuition.

IOW, you can learn things aren't so simple as you thought without throwing out all of your ideals. It's like if you are wrong about something it makes more sense IMO to pinpoint precisely where you were wrong rather than throw out your entire idea. Maybe your entire idea isn't viable, but that can be determined after careful examination and it doesn't make sense to just default to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

You do you, is all I'm gonna say.

 

I corrected that, "nobility" is not the word I had in mind in fact. He's more the predator.

Ren killed a poor unarmed man because it was his specific mission on Jakku: retrieve the map, kill the owner and take no prisoners. He is brutal but does not use the Dark Side to kill him, just his sabre and strenght.
There is a difference that you seem not to understand, brute strength is like a good blaster on your side. Again: watch Vader, Dooku and Palpatine and then tell me the difference. Dark Side tricks are another matter entirely.

I see you are elegantly avoiding commenting Rey's fighting style as comparison.
What do you think of her fury, of her attacking first (no, do not call the self-defence, his sabre was off when she attacked and she shot him first).
Striking down an unarmed man? Yes she did it, Ren was unarmed when she cut his face and no,it was NOT self-defence because, again, he was unarmed, she had the advantage and she was not even in a mission.
She did it because she wanted to. Because she was furious. She was taking revenge for Finn and Han Solo.
That's the Dark Side.

 

And he will continually fail.. Till he realizes that's not the way? That is a circle and he must break it... That winning a war doesn't mean ending a conflict... Man I hope they get to this conclusion...

 

The narrative isn’t drawing anything near and equivalency between Kylo’s “level of evil” and Rey’s. I don’t see what your point is other that try to argue that relatively speaking Kylo isn’t that bad, really.

(If you’re merely pointing out that Rey was more angry at Kylo than he was at her? Yes. Obviously. Justified anger.)

ETA: Also pretty sure the movies have depicted Kylo’s killing of LST, the village massacre, abduction of Rey, “interrogation,” of Rey, murder of Han,etc etc as “bad.”

He is an unredeemed bad guy, yes? Is anyone arguing that he isn’t? Did anyone watch the showdown between Luke and Kylo on Crait and feel confused over who was in the right and who was in the wrong?

 

We're meant to worry about these things, that was the intention of the writers. They want us to worry about his fate. It's creating tension for the next final act of the trilogy.

 

That is not an excuse for killing an unarmed old man who was no threat to him. When you kill in anger when you lash out in rage you are using the darkside. Killing that old man was not only evil, it was stupid. If Kylo can rip information from peoples minds then he should've taken the old man alive as he might have enough information in his head so Kylo can figure out the map. Instead Kylo kills the man in anger because he didn't like what was being said.

I think you're the one who is not understanding how this works. Anakin Skywalker slaughtered an entire village of Sandpeople with a lightsaber, killed count dooku with a lightsaber when he was at his mercy and slaughtered children. These were ALL dark side acts whether or not he was using force choke or lightening. Afterall...YODA used lightening and there was nothing dark side about it in TLJ since he was setting a dead tree on fire to sae Skywalker.

Rey getting all snarly is a dark side thing to do...Luke did it in ROTJ when he nearly killed Vader in anger and it was a bad thing, then and it's a bad thing now.

It is, and it proves that Kylo's been using it all the time. He wants revenge against Luke for his betrayal. He wanted revenge against Finn, to punish Finn for being the catalyst for everything that went wrong for Kylo in TFA. He kills his father to achieve power, and he kills an unarmed old man because he was angry. Kylo Ren is swimming in the dark side...not because he uses force choke or lightening but because his actions, are fueled by hate and rage.

 

Rey didnt feel like the center of the story in TLJ at all.

That is my biggest problem with TLJ.

Rey felt like an outsider watching Kylo and Luke's conflict.

I was SO excited to see Rey get trained by Luke as a jedi.

But nope , all Luke taught her is why the Jedi need to end.

Then at the end they want people to believe she is a jedi bcoz she lifted rocks.

Rey is my favourite but even i can understand why people are mad about it. Hell i am mad.

Its the stuff like this, that people call her a mary sue and i HATE when that happens.

They needed to flesh out her character more.
What are her motivations, what does she want, what is she thinking?

Rey got overshadowed by the skywalkers in TLJ.

Achto story became about Luke and Kylo more than Rey's "lessons".

Snoke part was completely about Kylo.

Rey didnt even know him, didnt have a beef with him and didnt kill him either even though she is the hero.

Did she even know Snoke's name before going there?

This story feels like Kylo's more than Rey's at this point.

Kylo is actually at the center of this story and every conflict, every character.

If you remove Kylo , there is no conflict, no story , no drama, no surprise.
That makes him more important than any other character.

Kylo makes decisions and choices to which Rey(finn,poe) just reacts to like a good hero.

This "nobody" hero thing is not working in Rey's favour at all.

Her story fades in front of Kylo's (the last skywalker/solo) in the skywalker saga.

After TFA all people talked about was who are Rey's parents.

After TLJ all people are talking about is - will Kylo be redeemed or not.

In any and every social media 80% talk is about Kylo, 15% about Rey and 5% rest of the new characters.

Its REALLY surprising bcoz Kylo is the villian.
Vader never got this treatment in the OT.

 

Never said that he is.

His sword style is not as elegant as Obi-Wan Kenobi's in TPM. His duel with Dart Maul or with Anakin in ROTS are rare beauty for elegance, speed and cunnings. Obi-Wan Kenobi is still unparalleled if you ask me.
I find Kylo's style perfectly in line with his weapon: it has some dirty but mesmerising efficacy. The mixture between sword fight (hacking-and-hammering Westeros style) mixed with brawling is quite amusing actually.

 

Oh!
I though we were discussing sword fighting style, not life-style.
My mistake.

 

Oh yes... I wasn't even alive when the OT came out, I was a child when the PT came out.. I'm just so thankful for the chance to see SW's movies on the cinema and this, theorizing, speculating and absolutely not knowing what the hell is going on... And the story, even when a lot of people hate it, I find it more meaningful, cause we get to think like this...

 

@Star war I understand your disappointment, you expected to get more and that's a legit concern. Rey is still the main HERO of this story, but she does share the main spotlight with Kylo/Ben, because those two ARE THE STORY. It's THEM. The writers did focus on fleshing out his character more and he's arguably a better written character, at least at the moment, because they want to do something more with his character - why else would they spend so much time on him? Right now, he's the one who is repeatedly failing and losing which is something the main character usually goes through in the second act, but with Rey, there's a slight lack of failures. And I say slight, because I know you take issue with her lack of growth, but she did have a few failures if you count her ridiculous Snoke assassination attempt that failed miserably because she was tossed about like a rag doll (luckily Kylo was able to use this situation of Snoke being distracted to kill him - so I guess it wasn't too much of a failure when the end result was good?) and she also failed in turning Kylo because she assumed these things would be easy, like a snap of a finger, because of her vision she overestimated herself (her own power and her power over people).

 

Hey guys, I'm afraid we'll have more pressing concerns in the future:

“Star Wars: The Last Jedi” Box Office Has Disney Concerned

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Disney might be having more problems than expected with the current wave of Star Wars films and merchandise. Yes, the films have been profitable, but since The Force Awakens made its successful theatrical run in 2015, it appears that box office returns have had less of an impact than analysts had anticipated.

Rogue One was a Star Wars spinoff film, but Disney had always stressed that it was an experiment and they wanted to see how the public reacted to Star Wars movies that were not part of The Episodes. Rogue One’s final box office worldwide total was just under $1.1 billion. For an experiment, it performed fairly well. Nowhere near the $2.1 billion that The Force Awakens did, but still very profitable for the company.

The Last Jedi, although praised by many critics, had a decidedly split view among Star Wars fans and audiences alike, and that may have impacted the box office. The Last Jedi pulled in $1.3 billion worldwide, but being a direct sequel to The Force Awakens and an episode of the Star Wars Saga, it did fall short of what many analysts expected as the final intake.

Solo: A Star Wars Story, the next Star Wars spin off to follow Rogue One, will open theatrically in less than 4 months and that movie seems to have had troubles of its own with the firing of original directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller, needing Ron Howard to come in and re-shoot a large portion of the film, hopefully salvaging what Lord and Miller had already filmed. We have yet seen a teaser trailer or much advertising and with so little time until it premiers, that could hint to something troubling.

The Wall Street Journal does make a good point and they aren’t the only ones to see a possible crack in the Star Wars franchise. I have no doubt Disney is fully aware of what is going on and hopefully they are rethinking the current direction that Lucasfilm has taken the Star Wars franchise.

Full article here: https://wdwnt.com/2018/01/star-wars-last-jedis-box-office-disney-concerned/

 

Is there anywhere in there where Disney said THEY are concerned? (*don't see it*)