ST The Reception of The Last Jedi vs The Empire Strikes Back

Which made no sense to me in context. TLJ showed us beyond the shadow of a doubt that Luke never grew beyond Yoda. Because Yoda still needs to teach him like a rather stupid child here. And he never became a Master because he never trained even one student. The movie tells us he did nothing but fail in teaching. Meanwhile Rey had grown beyond both of them already easily. But that is beside the point because neither one was ever her master or she their student so it is inconsequential if she grew beyond them. It is not their burden. Their burden is failing, which they did unrelated to Rey.

Unfortunately, they seem to be the worst family in the history of the GFFA. If you hold up their little successes which are now almost all overturned and weigh them against all the failures, it truly would have been better if they had not existed. Which takes the shine out of the old movies.

That would be akin to revisiting Rey in twenty years and finding out how she became the scourge of the galaxy.

 

Luke's portrayal in TLJ was more than adequately handled in TLJ and the film gives you context why he is that way. We've already discussed parts of his portrayal in this thread, and it's been discussed like crazy over in the Luke thread. I get it. Many don't like hermit Luke. Many wanted post-ROTJ perfect hero Luke. That's not a realistic expectation for the timeline of the film. We were never getting post-ROTJ Luke. (Hello? Mark Hamill is 66 years old. Why would anyone think we were going to get a Luke-in-his-prime movie?) This was never going to be Luke's story. There had to be some kind of tragedy or controversy to spark conflict in our new story to explain Luke's absence for the past few years. Many won't accept Luke's (possibly incomplete) reasoning for running away for 6 years (a fraction of the time Yoda and Obi Wan ran away for), and conclude that Luke Skywalker is a coward. Maybe he felt it was best for the galaxy to stay out of it so that he wouldn't cause any more harm. Maybe there's even more to the story of why he ran away for so long that we don't even know yet. Doesn't matter. Coward.

It's been discussed before, ad nauseam, Obi Wan's force ghost could interact with the physical world. This isn't anything new. I guess it must be crazy to think that after 30 years of being a force ghost, Yoda has learned some new ways in which to interact with the physical world? I don't know. I have no clue why this bothers people.

New = Bad

Got it.

 

You're literally misunderstanding everything I'm saying in your binary way of thinking.

No need to go on and on about how it was unrealistic to expect a ROTJ "hero" Luke...we get it. There's a middle ground. Being a foolish coward drinking from a cow was not exactly a complex or strong storyline. He may have felt that he was doing good in taking himself out of the fight, but the movie scenes portrayed him as a coward. But anyway, I wasn't saying anything about that...I was just saying that TLJ Luke is nothing like the previous Star Wars movies, contrary to your claim that it was totally Star Wars.

And I wasn't saying that Yoda necessarily bothered me either...just that it wasn't the "Star Wars" we've seen up to this point. You took my claim and put a whole new meaning into my mouth. That wasn't what I was saying.

My exact point was that this stuff is new. You implied it wasn't by saying it was "as Star Wars as you can get."

 

Oh dear lord, can people please get over the over-protectiveness of a fictional character? Can we learn from one of the key messages of the film and try and tone down the hero worship? Just for the sake of discussion? The movie absolutely does not tell us "Luke Skywalker did nothing but fail in teaching." And if that's actually how you view Luke, then that's a pretty sad homage to such a supposed loved character. Let's just ignore everything that happened in the OT because there happens to be new challenges and conflicts in the ST.

And by the way, we haven't seen any Luke stories yet between ROTJ and up until about 6 years before TFA. Do you really think they're not going to tell those stories? What exactly did you think Luke meant when he said "For a time, there was balance..." That Luke was making a fool of himself trying to teach younglings in his training temple? Luke Skywalker has some monumental accomplishments on his Jedi resume. And I'm sure we'll learn all about his post-ROTJ adventures in one of the new TV shows coming up.

His own bloodline, pressure of living up to being a legend (that's pretty ironic), and Snoke caused him to fail with Ben Solo. That is his tragedy. And thank the FORCE for that tragedy because without it, we would have never gotten the beautiful return arc that is Luke in TLJ.

 

Those stories are iffy now for me, knowing where it all ends. And I`m not that interested in the TV shows anyway. Though, the legend survived intact, the man died a failure. As did Han, just minus the legend part. However, we learned that Luke started a training temple with a dozen students plus Ben. Half of them plus Ben fell to the darkside - right under his nose. The other half was killed. And he personally had a hand in what happened to Ben. This is a horrible track record.

I`m not saying he didn`t have some successes and victories, maybe for the New Republic or something like that, but not in Jedi teaching. Of course he had successes in the OT but he never taught Jedi there for obvious reasons.

I would actually welcome any sort of retcon in episode 9 that recontextualizes why he ran away, gave him a good reason and, thus, made him not a coward anymore. It would matter a great deal to me if that happened. Until it happens, I`m stuck with the present, though.

 

What did he succeed at post-ROTJ? I'll wait.

When Luke said there was balance for a time, that was up until he started training new Jedi and Ben. There was peace and balance while he did nothing and just explored the galaxy. As soon as he did something the story wrote him as failing.

 

The lightning bolt is Yoda proving his point to Luke. He's literally jolting Luke out of his funk. It undercuts nothing. If the force is an energy field taht surrorunds all living things, and a Jedi becoming one with the Force makes them more powerful than you can possibly imagine, I have zero problem with a force spirit bringing down a bolt of lightning. Likewise, if you have a problem with force ghosts affecting the physical world, I assume you have a problem with Old Ben moving vines in ROTJ and QGJ lifting Yoda and furniture in TCW?

 

I don't have a problem with ghost's shooting lightning bolts per see, the problem is that when you follow up ridiculous physical comedy with deep lessons about responsibility and teacher/student relationships without any transition of tone, there is a dissonance. Its just bad writing, period. The lightning bolts were absurd, and that's why they're funny. When Yoda jokes about looking good at 900, that's not absurd, it's quaint. When he acts all goofy on Dagobah, allows for some time to settle down before getting serious with Luke. You guys can enjoy the scene all you want but don't even bother trying to call me a hypocrite, it won't prove that TLJ is a good film.

 

We aren't out to prove to you that The Last Jedi is a great film. We are here to talk about how many people can't appreciate greatness in the moment and often don't. Just as they didn't Empire. That's the topic of this thread.

Everyone's taste is different.

TLJ may not be a good film for you and many others here but can be an amazing film for a lot of Star Wars fans here, elsewhere and even more uninterested in posting online.

Empire had a significant drop at the box office in comparison to ANH, pushed some fans of the original way for going too far into fantasy, seemed to expose the weaknesses of the characters and actors in ways some didn't like, and was criticized frequently for its plotting (some of which was deemed weak and unnecessary, its depiction of Leia following ANH, and its darker tone which didn't provide a truly satisfying ending for some. The best art gets better with age, and some trilogies that setup dynamics in the middle film that are resolved in the final film are viewed differently when that final film is out and the entire 3 piece project can be assessed. I suspect the blu-ray release of TLJ will help its perception over time.

 

Never mind...final point, however. On his death bed. Yoda is literally about to die and Luke says to himself “then I am a Jedi” to which Yoda is jolted back to life says “ahhh” laughs a bit and says “not yet”.

And being a hypocrite is one thing, and not liking a movie is another thing.

 

And TLJ Yoda would have jolted back to life, made his kettle of snake soup explode, ripped a fart, cackled a bit and said "...not yet". You can see where I'm coming from.

 

Yoda's "ahhh, not yet" was not a haha joke for the audience to laugh at. It conveyed to the audience Yoda's amusement at Luke thinking it was that easy. It added to the drama, it didn't detract from it. It was yet another moment that emphasized the stakes and the challenge Luke faced.

 

TLJ yoda did none of this, and yet here we are.

All he does is laugh...and basically tell Luke that the books weren’t all that interesting and but by your description of Yoda he is basically Jar Jar’s and Urkle’s idiot love child.

 

Yoda's laugh and burning of the tree was not a haha joke for the audience to laugh at. It conveyed to the audience Yoda's amusement at Luke thinking it was so important. It added to the drama, it didn't detract from it. It was yet another moment that emphasized the stakes and the challenge Luke faced.

Basically, that’s what we are all saying about TLJ...

 

The problem is you guys clearly found something way more humorous and slapstick then everyone else here. I mean is Yoda burning down a tree that amusing?

 

I don't agree with this equivalency, obviously, so I guess that's not basically what I'm saying.

I think Yoda's scene in TLJ was a haha moment for the audience to laugh at, so the first sentence I disagree with. I don't think the point was Yoda's internal amusement at Luke so much as Yoda putting on a performance for Luke. It definitely didn't add to any drama because it didn't indicate any stakes or challenges. It was just Yoda mocking Luke's logic and making a big production of that mockery.

This isn't really my discussion because I was fine with Yoda in TLJ. I thought RJ was just duplicating ESB Yoda, which yeah, doesn't actually work because when Yoda behaved like that he was testing Luke. It wasn't real Yoda, it was show Yoda putting on a front. But whatever, it's a minor enough scene that it doesn't really matter to me. I think it's more silly that at this stage of his life, Master Luke still needs to learn lessons from Yoda. That was actually glaringly distracting to me.

 

Why? I've never understood this.

 

Compare it to Yoda and Ben in RotJ. They converse like they're peers, despite the fact that Ben was once Yoda's student. At a certain point, the student grows up. At that point, I expect him/her to be afforded a certain amount of respect, and to command a certain amount of respect. Yoda and Luke should be more of equals at this stage of Luke's life.

 

Yoda and Ben don’t converse in ROTJ

Yoda and force Ghost Ben talk in TESB in which Yoda keeps telling Obi Wan how he is wrong about Luke being ready and how reckless he was that he made matters worse by leaving his training...and basically calling him out by forgetting about Leia being another hope. (Although that’s retcon)...

Master Kenobi last face to face meeting with Yoda was Yoda instructing him on a new lesson he wants to teach him.

 

I don't think they aren't equals, it's just that Luke is really struggling with some philosophical questions at this point in his life. I can imagine that both Yoda and Obi-Wan helped each other during their exile.

 

The difference between Yoda speaking with Luke in TLJ and Yoda speaking with Ben in the OT can be explained pretty easily I think.

In the OT Obi-Wan has obtained a higher power and in some ways it’s more like Obi-Wan talking down to Yoda from above initially like someone talking to their grandpa in an old folks home initially as he interrupts Yoda’s every reservation with a counter of his own. Obi-Wan is calm and cool so it feels less disrespectful but he’s quick to dismiss Yoda’s observations. The Force ghost seems to have that extra level of wisdom from beyond that allows for it.

However, more important than that these two have been communicating longer and are complicit in their lies and (poorly strategized) training planning for Luke Skywalker. That plan unites them.

Yoda has missed Young Skywalker in TLJ. It’s clear he hasn’t spoken to him in a very long time and more than that... he is treating him like he used to because he thinks he needs that to wake up and realize the purgatory he’s created for himself. Luke in TLJ is truly caught in between do or do not again as he stares down that tree and hesitates. He’s lived there for years and hasn’t been able to end the Jedi and Yoda knows why. Yoda knows it’s not the root of his problem. Luke needs to unlearn what he has learned regarding the Lew’el ways he’s convinced himself are right. He thinks the Jedi can’t improve but as Yoda had told him before “Always with you it’s can not be done.” So, Yoda approaches him in the way he feels will help him most and it works because Luke needed someone he trusted with wisdom to do that for him in that moment.

I suspect that if Yoda and Luke converse about Rey now or in IX they will seem more like peers the way he and Obi-Wan did after those initial interruptions from Obi-Wan because they will then be united around the goal with her, will have already bonded again after their fire chat, and because Luke no longer needs that wakeup call.

 

Oh excuse me, I meant ESB, thank you.

"Yes, yes, to Obi Wan you listen." Yoda and Obi as a united front, as equals, try to reason with Luke.

The scene in the hut where Yoda and Ben talk, Yoda listens to Ben. He's convinced by Ben. They reason with each other. They don't mock each other or condescend to each other. Their interactions are the interactions of equals.

He never calls Ben out for forgetting about Leia lol. It's just a moment that shows Obi believes their fate lies in Luke's hands, and Yoda still believes in Leia's potential as well. They disagree. Yoda didn't act ridiculous to make to Obi see how silly he is to forget about Leia.

That's cool if you interpret these scenes differently, but that's how I see them and importantly it's just an example of the mutual respect I expect to see between two wise adults that have earned their places of stature through experience and accomplishment. Wise Jedi Master Luke wasn't treated in this way by the script or by Yoda. He was the silly student that Yoda needed to put a big show on for to teach him a lesson.

Edit ~ I'm gonna go meta here because this description just reminded me of these boards and the different types of interactions that occur here haha.

It had a very ESB master/student vibe to it to me. It's too bad because I would have enjoyed that dynamic between Luke and Rey. Instead I got it here, where I wasn't looking for it. Luke may be struggling with some philosophical questions in life, but he isn't a child or a young adult. He's a Jedi Master, theoretically at least. Jedi Masters can disagree about the right course of action without one treating the other like a nincompoop.

 

Back to the topic at hand...

I confidently predict that years down the road, unlike TESB which stands near the top due to its fantastic writing and entertaining and full character development, The Last Jedi will be forgotten and disregarded as the 1 or 2 day long (?) sluggish space chase where Luke is a loser and chugs chunky green milk. Some people may have enjoyed the movie, but in the big picture, this movie will become low in importance because of its messy and claustrophobic writing and lack of fulfilling character development.

 

Conversely, I think most fans are horrible judges of film for the inherit biases they possess and even worse in Star Wars fandom because of how many seem to think they’re writers when they really aren’t.

Very few films in the history of cinema achieve the combination of critical acclaim (Over an 8.0 score average from over 400 critics, top 10 at the box office, and an IMDB score in the Star Trek Wrath of Khan range of 7.5 or greater that don’t remain classics forever.)

Whatever exceptions there are to that kind of combination are incredibly rare and all of the true taste makers seem to love TLJ. The people who dislike it aren’t only outnumbered on IMDB. They’re outnumbered by all of the sites and people of influence who will ever do lists and rankings for the next 10 or 20 years. Rankings and critical acclaim scores and analysis that an entire new generation of fandom whose first exposure to Star Wars will be this ST will eat up and defend even more rigorously than the PT kids who’ve grown up defending that (Many of whom are attacking the ST).

When you win over a new generation who’ll dominate the internet for the next 20 years and beyond, and have critical acclaim, and have too 10 box office, and have a general audience score over 7.0 you’re basically laughing all the way to the bank for a long time.

A new generation of fans who grow up on the ST won’t just love it. They may even love it more than every other trilogy that they watch after. The recycled beats won’t be recycled to them. Luke will work even better for them than many of the old fans. They’ll be bored of how long it takes for Luke to develop force powers in the OT after growing up with this and the MCU. It will feel like old Errol Flynn Robin Hood or Adam West era Batman did to kids in the 1980s. I won’t even get started on the PT. Kids are going to be going to freaking Disney World for pete’s sake and exploring the new films and new characters. Can you imagine the kind of impact that’s going to have on connecting this saga and this film to all of them?

Everything is lining up for this film to be a new generation’s Empire and for its critics to sound as out of touch as the people who disliked Empire back in 1980. As an older fan who has seen how passionate the next wave of fans tend to be with the saga they grow up with I think the combination of elements of youth and critical acclaim is a winning recipe for the future.

 

This is one huge thing Luke fans have a problem with.

They decided on showing the crappiest part of Luke's life. "Struggling philosophically", being contrite with the mess he got saddled with by the writers as being his fault, and being a failed old man. THAT is what they went with after fans waited 30 years to see more Luke. Forget "all powerful". Forget lightsaber duels. It's not either or. If some had unrealistic expectations, this is beyond the opposite end of the spectrum. And no, the ending doesn't make up for it.