ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Agreed, but Luke's lessons and her failure in the cave made Rey caste out for any help and in that moment of weakness she took a chance on Kylo Ren....which resulted in his rise to power within the First Order and nearly her own death.

 

Her motivations for depending on him are entirely nonsensical. That's why latching onto him makes no sense. She isn't even put into a corner with this decision.

 

I actually agree Rey's character is spotty here. I've been piecing together this picture of who Rey is and was all pleased when I realized that Rey has probably dreamed in this really faint way (like the sort of dream where you can't fully acknowledge it consciously for fear it will evaporate if it's placed too close to reality) of being a Jedi. But it's not about searching for some kind of glory (almost) like little Ani. It's about what should be.

I came to this because I decided that Rey telling Luke "we need the Jedi order back" came from her. It's not something she got from Leia. It's something she firmly believes and has probably believed for a long time, ever since hearing these "myths" about Luke for instance. This was like my moment of "there you are, Rey. This is *who* you are."

"We need the Jedi order back" is kind of a mission statement for Rey--it's the equivalent of "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father." And it's backed by her dreams of Ahch-to - location of the first Jedi temple. Not to mention how she saw the tree containing the Jedi texts as familiar too.

I think Rey's character is full of little dreams and yearnings like this. But I still can't connect to why she began confiding in Kylo. I feel like it was because she on some level sees Kylo as a possible kindred... There is something she is seeking or asking in this and TLJ doesn't really make it clear to me.

TFA also IMO apparently didn't give Rey a great set up... BUT it is kind of interesting that Rey stays slightly out of view in that she doesn't broadcast her heart's desire constantly. Instead she acts.

 

I'm loving both ideas!

if the connection has to be reopened, I hope it is because one of the two is in a precarious situation

 

I love Killmonger and I personally wish they didn't kill him.

But comparing Killmonger and Kylo is like comparing apples and oranges. Very different universes. One of which has 40 years of cinematic history and cultural impact. While BP is making history only in 2017.

Creating Killmonger is more about creating a compelling villain in MCU.
Creating Kylo is not about creating a villain, it's more about creating a new archetype in SW and even in the genre.

I'm not sure we should discuss Kylo's fate in this thread.

 

And because one of them wants to... :'0

 

Possible, but sounds like semantics. (Also, the TFA script also claimed that Luke knew to Rey was, and we know how accurate that proved to be). There's also the detail that Snoke's mind-reading of her is the exact same method used on Poe, who we can safely say that he did not have a mental link to.

No, she was (Rey's Story TFA junior novelization, p. 112).

Is there a source for that? (Also remember that Johnson was the one who presented the "Snoke did it" model and gave zero evidence onscreen to show that he was lying).

She actually tried to replicate what she did to read Kylo's mind, which could be different. Also, since Kylo was using some kind of mind-reading technique, there needn't be a mental link for Rey to get the info from him to do that.

Her lightsaber combat skills came from her adapting her quarterstaff skills (you can see that in TFA proper and confirmed in the TFA junior novelization. Maz, not Kylo, taught her how to connect to the Force.

I think Snoke would know if he'd done it or not. Besides, it's not a thing that could've happened on his own. When Kylo realizes that the Force Skype is in place, he's utterly confused since he knows that he didn't do it and Rey would've killed herself trying. There's also the little fact that from the movies alone, there's no way to realize that Snoke was lying if he was. From a narrative standpoint, having him lie about it without revealing it to the audience muddies the narrative and creates incongruities. Because of the rules set up in regards to how the Force Skype works and that there's no way to prove Snoke a liar from the movie itself, unless further evidence turns up, we have to assume that he's telling the truth on this point, since the movie's narrative falls apart otherwise.

Yes, that goes without saying. However, novelizations are extremely squishy canon. There are many discrepancies with the finished film in terms of exact details, descriptions, and lines, not counting other materials. For example, in the TFA novelization, Finn is described as being an unremarkable cadet (every other source describes him as best in class), Rey actually sells BB-8 to Unkar Plutt before having a change of heart (in direct contradiction to TFA the movie), and Rey and Poe meet "off camera" during TFA (not onscreen in TLJ). So, novelizations are canon, but they're not the most reliable source of info, and stuff that cannot be fit in "off screen" are esp. dubious (we know that Kylo never said "It is you" in the real version of that scene, so how can that be remotely accurate, esp. as it seems to have become a dropped plot thread?).

Honestly, I find that very telling that we should pay it no mind, but that's just me.

Since Kylo didn't know that there was a Force Skype link, I'm not sure how he could've faked out Snoke on that. Besides, as shown in the movie, both he and Rey were blindsided by everything about it (that it existed in the first place and that Snoke was behind it all).

Seeing as every other detail Snoke provides in that specific moment (that he was manipulating Kylo, trying to lure Rey into walking into a trap, ect.) is considered accurate, I don't get why we're cherry-picking this one detail as being a falsehood ?

I think there's so little evidence to know for sure, personally. Besides, in context, it could've just been her own worst nature.

 

"[What was the trickiest scene to mix in terms of the effects?] The moment Kylo Ren and Rey touch hands via the force connection. That was a real challenge. They're together in the force connection, but they weren't together physically. We were cutting back and forth from her place to Kylo Ren's place. We were hearing her campfire and her rain. It was a very delicate balance between that and the music. We could have had the rain really loud and the music blasting, but Rian wanted the rain and fire to peel away as their hands were getting closer. It was so quiet and when they did touch there was just a bit of a low-end thump. Having a big sound there just didn't have the intimacy that the scene demanded.[...]" - Michael Semanick, "The Last Jedi" Re-recording mixer (Skywalker Sound).

"[How did you work with the director?] There are other areas in the film where we go extremely quiet or take the sound out completely. For example, when Rey (Daisy Ridley) and Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) first force-connect, the sound goes out completely… you only hear a little bit of their breathing. There's one time when the force connection catches them off guard — when Kylo had just gotten done working out and Rey was walking somewhere — we took the sound completely out while she was still moving.

Rian loved it because when we were working on that scene we were trying to get something different. We used to have sound there, all the way through the scene. Then Rian said, "What happens if you just start taking some of the sounds out?" So, I started pulling sounds out and sure enough, when I got the sound all the way out — no music, no sounds, no backgrounds, no nothing — Rian was like, "That's it! That just draws you in." And it does. It pulls you into their moment. They're pulled together even though they don't want to be. Then we slowly brought it back in with their breathing, a little echo and a little footstep here or there. Having those types of dynamics worked into the film helped the scene at the end." - Michael Semanick, "The Last Jedi" Re-recording mixer (Skywalker Sound).

 

@milena I think one of the most interesting parts was this one:

 

Yes, interesting indeed. Thank you for posting it! They mentioned their scenes a lot...

 

:'l
That scene and the fight in the throne room makes me forget about everything else... That moment it's just about them, making balance. Symmetry. Harmony. Beauty.
Ahhh!!!
Kill him if you have to. That's the only way to kill what they are meant to be

 

It really was a feel good moment.
I liked it.

They both were so lonely before and then they werent.
It was sweet.

 

They are both very lonely. Daisy touched on that subject.

 

I think their loneliness is the biggest reason for them connecting with each other.
They kinda relate to each other.

Plus the whole forbidden thing is tempting too.

 

Not in a million years, no. If Rey at some point tries to connect with Kylo, he'll answer.
I agree that he may take a low profile for a while, trying to sort things out. We have seen how respectful he is of her space. I believe he may feel himself unworthy, self-loathing, self-pitying but if she ever tries to reach out to him in any way, he'll be there.
The only situation I can imagine he'd ignore her is if he's determined to sacrifice his life to save something (her) and she tries to dissuade him. He may shut her out then, yes.

Well, I think she's more the healer.
She fix things, right? Once a scavanger, always a scavenger.
She takes old parts to make something new, something functional. This is very symbolic. It is creative al well, opposite to the destructive force that is Kylo.
We will see it with the broken lightsaber.
We might see it with the broken Ben Solo.

She was not selfless going to Kylo to "rescue" him. She layed down her conditions first: 1) Turn to the light 2) Save the Rebel Fleet without taking into consideration what the Rebel fleet meant to Kylo.
If we take for good what A. Driver said about his character:

it was a bit inconsiderate, reckless even on her part. Either she deliberately ignored or didn't know at all what the Rebellion represented for him. Leia may be able to explain and Rey may reflect on that. It was inexperience, confusion and a bit of not knowing exactly what she wants that made her attempt going wrong.
So she sort of needs time on her own to meditate as well. Ahch-To seems a wonderful place to do so.

 

That's the tricky part, isn't it?
You quote the junior novelisation, absolutely OK.
So we have:

Script: REY DOES THE UNTHINKABLE! SHE ENTERS HIS HEAD, AMAZED AT WHAT SHE IS SEEING!
Alan Dean Foster: "A look of amazement replaced the fear on Rey’s face as she discovered herself inside his mind. Stunned at the realization, she found herself inexorably drawn to—to…"
Michael Kogge: "She turned his tendrils back at him. His feelings and memories were easy to read. His mind was a turbulent ocean of fear."

The only active part involving some intent on her side is actually the Junion novelization. I have the Kindle version, I heard there are differences between the printed verision and the Kindle. If your version is different, please let me know.
One single thought though: we know the mind probe being kinda painful if you try to resist it (as did Rey even though I really believe Kylo was going easy on her). How is it he does not double in pain as Rey probes his mind? I wonder... does he simply let her in? Doesn't even realise she was pushing thorugh?

I do not think Snoke is lying. I doubt Snoke as a reliable source of information.
He believes in what he says. Which doesn't make it 100% accurate.
We saw it even with Luke: Only after the 3rd attempt we got the full story of the attack on Kylo. And we needed two witnesses and 3 attempts.
Like any character, Snoke tells the story from his POV.
He was wrong about being able to read Kylo's mind, to see his every intent. He didn't, we saw it.
Where there is one mistake, there can be two.
Second mistake: the awakening in the Force, he felt it, he assumed it was Skywalker (with his powerful blood), he was wrong. He didn't consider a scavanger a real threat, only after she resisted Kylo's mind probe and beat the crap out of him he did take her into consideration.
Where there are two mistakes, there can be three.
So I question he was the one creating the bond. He exploited it, yes. I agree. He may even believe he created it.
He was blinded by his overconfidence, most Dark Side Force users are. It's not in their nature to be humble.

I do not know how much can we trust Wookieepedia on that, but the entry on Force-Bond there seems to confirm my suspect

Anyway, I do not take that for canon, it is just my observation on the reliability of Snoke as storyteller.

Because cherry-picking is exactly where our differences lie: Whether Snoke is a reliable source of information or not.
You say "Yes"
I say "No"

(You say "Stop" and I say "Go, go, go" )

 

Yes, that's interesting. Forgot to mention it in my previous post.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by: "Since Kylo didn't know that there was a Force Skype link, I'm not sure how he could've faked out Snoke on that." What do you think Kylo believed those connections were? He says himself: "Why is the Force connecting us?" Not "Who's connencting us?"
He seems to know it's a Force connection at first. Little by little I think he understands it's more than that by the details R. Johnson added to their connection, the last one being able to touch Rey's hand and manifest himself in the hut should have cleared his doubts.

What I meant is that in the moment Kylo killed his master he he projecting Snoke the wrong information. He made him believe his intent was to kill Rey as ordered, while he was going to kill him. That is Kylo's deception.

I agree with you that, given their disastrous interaction after Snoke's death and the PG fight, both Rey and Kylo may have questioned whether anything they saw and understood of each other in the Force Skype sessions was real. Both cannot really understand why the other will not turn and come together one side or another. So they may have believed Snoke's words in the end.
This is what I am starting to think myself. And that the reason why Kylo freaked out so badly on Crait was that he believed himself having being fooled by Snoke but also by Rey. Like the Rey who reached out her hand did not really exist. Then it would make sense to me his wanting to destroy her as well as means to kill his pain.
Only to discover in the end that the Force Bond still exists even after Snoke's death (this is a fact). That Snoke cannot manipulate it anymore (fact). Perhaps he never even created it in the first place (this is my interpretation).
This may hit Kylo and Rey hard.

 

Moreover, genre confusion. SW is a fairytale about the "peasant" girl who is more than meets the eye and the Dark Prince, while BP is a altogether a different story. nevertheless, both compelling in their own right.

 

I didn't mean he would reject her.. Im saying he could try to keep his conflict with Hux away from her. And that could make her even more interested about it...

 

I think the both saw the same thing in their visions but both interpreted it wrong.

Each saw the other standing beside the other. So in my mind, they interpreted that part correctly. We already know how well they function when they are together.

But what if each interpreted which side they chose. What if they both saw each other choose the same thing and it isn't FO or Resistance? Right now, they are each biased by what is unfolding in the current war. What if their standing together is with a third option in the future and is an entirely different path.

I just have a hard time with the Force being so wrong with both of them. I suspect they were both swayed by their current wants, but what if the Force is trying to show both of them a mutual future that transcends picking a side in the war.

 

I see what you mean. Trying to protect her he may keep his conflict with Hux "under cover" and perhaps pull the plug before she catches anything.
Maybe.
But I still believe that, as starved as he is (and will be) for human contact and understanding, he may just take anything, even a "monster", "liar" or whatever curse she drops on him.

I hope JJ Abrams will do something with the Knights of Ren though. Now that could be interesting.
If that path were explored, I can even imagine Kylo going another way completely with those guys, away from the FO but from the Rebels too. Keeping a very low profile, even closing himself from the Force, yes. Fighting as a mortal, renouncing to his superpowers --a way to atone perhaps?
Something very greyish, only fighting for what he feels right. Something I imagine even Rey would like, as boycotting
the whole weapon trade and forcing those wealthy war profiteers on Canto Bight on their knees.
We'd have wonderful fight sequences (and learn other uses for a lightsaber beyond duels) and that would be really a new concept.
BTW: have you noticed that in the only picture we have of what we think to be the KoR NONE of them has a lightsaber but Kylo?

 

Yes, this.
I am convinced they both saw exactly the same thing.
Let's say they each saw other together side by side in the future.
Which brought them to believe one of the two has to come to the other side, to turn. And this is the mistake.
Selfish too, on both sides.

They'll meet in the middle, beyond FO and Rebels, on another path to save the galaxy. This is what I believe.

 

THIS. I'm also convinced they saw the same thing, and I'm thinking a vision of them together in the future (as a family?).

The Dark Prince...

And the "Scavenger"...

Needs to meet in the middle, team up, and save the galaxy.

 

She seriously needs to learn some table manners though