Solo Solo box-office discussion

Like anyone though they love it when most people agree with them but when they start not to then it's confusion time.

I think a lot of problems for TLJ could have at the very least been lessened if they would have done proper marketing of the actual story as opposed to promoting it like it was a spiritual sequel to TFA when it really was in essence a total reversal of TFA. MH told everyone months out because he got it and knew it wasn't going to go over like TFA but Lucasfilm didn't listen to him before, during or after they made the movie.

As opposed to when they like something and say how everything is great and they know everything?

Except Lucasfilm are the ones who define it. It's not much to say that TFA and R1 come from an entirely different place than TLJ did. MH recognized it immediately and obviously many fans felt that way right away so something was going on.

Sorry but I don't think I'm being "victimized" at all so I don't know why you think I would think that.

As I've said TLJ is a terrifically entertaining movie that I like but at the same time I find it an abysmal Episode VIII. TFA is also terrifically entertaining but just a decent Episode VII. To me they have no impact on Lucas' story as Lucas' and MH's Luke isn't in the ST as Hamill noted.

Now does this really effect box office to any real degree? I don't think so but it does have some impact on perception. Look at the perception of TPM for instance to the reality of it being one of the most successful movies of all-time. It's the greatest feat of practical effects that will ever happen in Star Wars but to this day it's still called out for having all that CGI compared to the "practical" effects of the new movies.

 

It's about as much a total reversal of TFA as ESB is of ANH.

If you mean - did not take the most obviously predictable route through the story, then yes, it did not do that.

And the people Pablo and LFL call out are the loudest, angriest voices - voices that usually spend most of their time harassing LFL employees online (who claim they're voices of reason but are anything but). Doesn't mean they're not the only voices or that negative opinions of TLJ aren't valid. But they can't appease the reactionary chunk, and they do need to call them out. But everyone - from RJ to Pablo to Mark - has said on many occasions that it's perfectly fine not to like TLJ.

The fans not understanding storytelling anymore comment that Pablo made that drives people nuts is a generalisation that:

- applies to not just SW but the cinamasins culture we now have.
- doesn't apply to all fans or all criticism
- absolutely holds true

And no amount of people whining about that comment or calling it arrogant or elitist is going to change that. It wouldn't be a problem if - when missed points or false assumptions are corrected - people absorbed that new information. But they don't. It's often a wilful misreading of a point so they can keep bashing.

That's the only general slam that's been made. The rest of the LFL pushback is against the anti-SJW types and they are right to push back. It's unfortunate that rational criticism gets lumped in with either category, but that is also not helped when fans overstate the victim card on this one.

Also Qui - I don't expect you to be honest about this - but I assume you felt that George should have acknowledged the loud backlash against the PT when it was all kicking off?

I assume you feel he should have listened to the angry dissenters and let them know he would be amending his story to better reflect what they wanted, seeing as "the fans" always know better. And he would of course be right not to listen to "the fans" that thought the PT was just fine and a direction they were happy with?

Correct?

 

To lay blame of the RT score or box office underperformance on a group of alt-righters is not the best way to address the issue. Truthfully, if Solo is negatively affected by this troll campaign, we have to ask if there is something wrong with the film itself or how it was sold. A good film with a progressive agenda can withstand any alt-right review bombs with a natural counterbalance of positive reviews flowing from people who truly enjoyed. This is why Black Panther has 79% on RT audience reviews (aka nearly 80%) despite obviously being targeted by hate groups. If Solo suffers in the box office and audience ratings, it is thanks to a combination of a highly profile troubled production (the firing of the original directors in particular), nearly invisible and very late marketing, the low-key nature of a Solo adventure (it's not the same as the epicness of a Star Wars Saga), and TLJ's divisive nature which divided the fanbase in a manner not seen since TPM and was heavily publicized by the press.

To channel in Abraham Lincoln, Star Wars will never be destroyed from the alt-righters and hate groups. If we falter and lose the reception to them, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

 

go to any star wars hub online, and its infested with Soylo, anti-sjw people. They spend entire days leaving disgusting comments on everything, and make it hard for fans to actually enjoy themselves in those places. And believe me, they aren't sharing any rational critique of the TLJ, they're going out of their way to spread negativity. Of course, there are plenty of people that have legit reasons to not like TLJ, but we're talking about a particular toxic group of people that think its great to tank RT scores on movies they havent seen yet etc

 

And they will lose if the film is good. Like I said, a good well-made film can withstand any review bomb from these folks due to people who love the film posting their reviews to counterbalance the negativity. That's how Black Panther and especially The Force Awakens did it. They're not even worth wasting press papers on. Solo should do the same if word of mouth is good (and keep in mind, it had a lot going against it, especially that troubled production which lowered many people's expectations).

 

Anti-SJW groups claimed they were going to tank the TLJ score. The TLJ score tanked to the 50s.

Anti-SJW groups have been claiming they were going to tank the Solo score. The Solo score is at 55%.

Both were tanked in their opening week. It clearly doesn't take long to do so.

What part of the puzzle are people missing here?

Their intent is clear - they want KK gone. They feel she is putting soy in their SW. They want "their" SW back.

No doubt there is plenty of valid criticism rolled into that - but the basis of a lot of it is KEEP YOUR SJW CRAP OUT OF MY SW, WOMAN!

It's there in plain (often misspelled) English in 90% of the comments for both films.

Sure, some of it gets dressed up as "plot hole, betrays legacy" etc, but that's what is really driving it.

 

i agree, theyre not gonna destroy Star Wars. It's just annoying lol.

 

This **** seems to be dragging every thread down. How depressing.

 

It is depressing - but I do think it is valid to the BO - especially when Solo is performing low and there are various factors at play - of which the anti-KK feeling and some dissatisfaction at TLJ may be a part. I agree these morons aren't going to destroy SW. But they are doing their best to stink the joint up. And I do think their efforts are significant enough that it's best not to pretend they don't exist.

BP is a totally different set of circumstances and come comparable.

I think both BP and WW were more crowd-pleasing and less divisive than TLJ, no doubt.

But the anti-SJW crew felt zero ownership of that character or franchise to begin with. With SW they absolutely do, so it's a far easier bandwagon to jump onto. With BP you need to flat out acknowledge you're a racist to do so. Same with Wonder Woman. You can't tank WW for having a strong female lead. That's the whole point of that franchise. And with BP - when the red flags went up that racists and bigots were trying to tank the RT score - you have a much more natural and organic aspect to the pushback. But if you think the bigots didn't pull that RT score down you're fooling yourself 79% for BP? That's too low. And that's with a concerted pushback. With SW where is the widespread pushback coming from? I've noticed the tanking since week 1 of TLJ - I haven't even placed a good score on RT because I don't want to sign up for an RT account.

I am in no way pinning all this on the Soylo crew. Marketing, low anticipation to begin with, the recasting of an icon, a crowded summer market, somewhat inevitable SW fatigue and the second film in 6 months, with the 4 in 3 years, the turmoil with the directors and absolute, a certain level of dissatisfaction with TLJ all contributing.

 

So their tactic isn't working with Solo is that what you meant?
I'm hoping to watch Solo this afternoon, never watched TLJ and comments like you made making excuses for a movie with an apparently appallingly bad script is getting a mite annoying.
I'm more inclined to believe some idiots would deliberately tank a movie's score for kicks but that cannot be the whole story and until you stop making excuses that isn't going to change.
Now I'm hoping Solo does even better than you're suggesting to emphasise how much better a good movie with a decent script is.
Now I hope you all have a nice day and next time I post I'll have seen this movie!

 

So why did TFA have an 88% Audience Approval despite also being a subject of ire for those same people? Why did Black Panther ended up at 79% instead of 50% if they were also targeted by those people? Wonder Woman at 88%? Avengers Infinity War at 91%? Deadpool 2 at 86%? And considering that Solo is at Critic Approval 71%, the gap is a mere 15% difference right now. If that continues to maintain, that is nowhere near TLJ's abysmal 45% gap.

The alt-right groups will claim responsibility for anything that benefits them, just like ISIS will claim any terrorist attacks that benefit them even if they weren't really involved. To focus on the alt-right groups for being responsible of tanking the ratings of the movies you loved is what they want you to do. If you want them to fail, let the movie do its magic. Since Ron Howard created a safe Star Wars film apparently, the reception should not be severe as TLJ.

 

You haven't seen the film though.

The TLJ RT score is a known outlier. Let's stop citing it.

 

All of the scores mentioned came from RT itself. And the films I listed (other TLJ) showcase just how really effective this so-called successful campaign of the alt-right really is. As in, very little.

If TLJ is the outlier, then no one should worry about Solo's audience reception in RT.

 

The RT score for TLJ is an outlier to its other audience scores. Obviously what they did for TLJ worked, maybe because the response was more vicious (since these people were more attached to SW than Black Panther or Wonder Woman). I would guess the real RT score should be around 70%.

They have attempted the same with Solo and it appears to have worked somewhat (maybe to a lesser extent because they are doing it because of TLJ).

 

I think around the 60s - 70% mark is about right for TLJ.

Look at how the alt-right / gamer gate stuff has come on since TFA.

The MARY SUE! BLACK STORMTROOPER stuff you heard against TFA was the first stirrings of this. Those voices were louder still for R1 - but they weren't as coordinated or organised then. Look, these bigots are the same kind of bigots that helped get Tump elected. They are social media savvy and they are pissed. No doubt they hate TLJ a lot and lot more than TFA - but a large part of that is down to the way they feel women are being elevated at the expense of men. It's a huge factor. And TLJ - more than any of the films - challenges traditional masculine notions of heroism. Throw all that in with mainstream fan grievances - Rey Random/ Luke - and it's a potent brew.

But you're blind if you don't think this is why the RT score is so low for both films.

Solo proves that they can tank an RT score if they don't like something.

With Solo, they're doing it because of Droid rights, Lando's sexuality, and because they hate TLJ and want KK and her feminisation of the Force gone.

That doesn't mean they can't also hate the Canto Bight subplot or Hux gags, or SKB 2.0, or the choppy opening of Solo and it's many winks at fan service. Or that there aren't other many non-bigoted fans who just don't like the way the new films are going. But there are also many fans who love the new films. And the reason the Soylo morons are relevant is because they are skewing the narrative in a way that distorts the debate. And that's not good for everyone - not least because it does end up with valid criticism being lumped in with less valid critical at times - which is not fair either. But downplaying it because their angry helps your own case is not the answer.


Also - if you haven't seen Solo yet - why not wait until you have before sounding off.

 

Could not also be that RT was marketed by theaters as the number one critic review site? And thus, when people who did not like TLJ see the critics approval rate in RT at 91%, it would it not be natural for them to go there first and prove their professional critics to be wrong? Not to mention that it got media coverage, which only reaffirms its natural reputation.

Really, TLJ wouldn't have gotten that low of a score if there wasn't a good chunk of fans who didn't like it for different reasons (which helped weakened the number of positive reviews coming in TLJ's defense). When you consider how big the Sanctuary Thread has gotten in a relative short amount of time and in spite of moderators squashing out alt-right and hateful posts, as well as the fact that the TvTropes forum has outright locked the General Star Wars Thread and TLJ spoiler thread due to nasty arguments of whether or not TLJ was good, I safely say there is a sizable faction of Star Wars fans who could easily claim responsibility for TLJ's tanking at the RT audience ratings from the alt-right. And since Solo isn't as divisive, at least from what I can tell aside from the Q'ira romance and Lando's Droid Partner, we should see the audience score improving and ironically disproving the notion that TLJ had its rating skewed. Like I said before, a good film can withstand any review bomb thrown by the alt-right.

And if word of mouth is good, this should give Solo long legs, which is much more preferable than a big box office opening to cover any sudden drop in the attendance.

 

1. Have you read many of the reviews on RT for both films? Many, many, many are absolutely abhorrent.

2. I would accept a 'real' rating for RT to be around 70%.

 

Better to not, there's a large amount of historical revisionism around Lincoln painting him as something he was not.

I'll let his own words speak for him -

 

At this rate will Solo even break even ?

 

I think that fans find it difficult to understand the point of view of occasional viewers. It doesn't matter if the movie wasn't divisive among fans. What we should discuss is whether it has the potential to be appealing for anyone else, and I claim that, even though it's not a terrible movie, this is not the case. So I don't think it will have long legs and I'm ready to bet that it will earn significantly less than RO.

I think it will. But it surely won't be a box office success.

 

What does this have to do with the House Divided speech? Lincoln's words is to highlight how a united front is invincible from outside attacks unless it was weakened by divisiveness and in-fighting from within. AKA the American Civil War. What he thinks about race is irrelevant to what he said about disunity within the Union, especially in the context of Star Wars.

Oh yes, I have. I've also taken a look at TFA's reviews for good measure. The really nasty, negative reviews on TFA are just like TLJ but there was a lot of positive reviews counterbalancing the whole thing, even to this day. TFA still gets good reviews from audience while TLJ doesn't. It's rather odd, as I notice some of the reviews that gave thumbs up to TFA also mention despising TLJ. It's as if there is something about TLJ that makes it vulnerable to alt-right shenanigans (namely Star Wars fans who are critical about plot and characters).

Suffice to say, I noticed that some of the Solo's positive reviews have also considered TLJ to be bad and that Solo was a breath of fresh air. I do find it amusing to say the least.

Back on the topic, I really think they should have not released Solo six months after TLJ. Maybe in Christmas like every other Star Wars movie made by Disney. Six months feels too short and Star Wars doesn't really have the Superhero diversity advantage that Marvel and DC has. I feel that if they followed that model, the box office would have been much favorable.

 

What do you think accurate audience scores would be for TLJ and Solo?

 

For Solo, it would be around the 60% or maybe low 70% if I'm generous. Solo had a lot going against it. A highly troubled production is a perfect brew to deflate interests, especially with low marketing. And that was before TLJ.

As for TLJ, that is difficult to determine (given that a perceived critic bias against audience could intensively the rating wars even without the political element) but I would say 56%.

 

@Satipo I'm sorry but I have to say again, I don't buy that Star Wars as a franchise is uniquely vulnerable to alt-right trolls in a way that comic book movies are not. #ComicsGate was in full swing by February 2018 and one of its favorite targets for harassment was Ta-Nehisi Coates, who is most known for writing BP comics. Speaking from personal experience, I have been involved in both comic book and SW fandom for a long time and have always found mainstream comics fan culture to be more toxic and unwelcoming to women and POC (which isn't to say SW fandom was great, but DC/Marvel comics fandom was just that much worse).

I'm not saying that the alt-right hasn't targeted TLJ and Solo. I'm saying that I have yet to see a compelling explanation for why they've been so uniquely successful with their online trolling of these two films that doesn't boil down to a simple lack of counterbalancing fan support (for TLJ at least, with Solo it's too early to tell how the final RT rating will shake out).

 

TFA pleased the fans...alt-right counter-balanced (and only starting).....TLJ divided the fans...alt-right not counter-balanced (and in full-on mode...Solo, ok movie...while alt-right strikes back.....easy as ABC//

I believe that if you'd take the scores of those who liked TLJ you would obtain a very high note. While the scores of those who didn't like it would be very low note.

On the contrary i think that for Solo, the difference wouldn't be that important. Same thing for TFA.