PT Mace & Anakin rivalry

Would Mace have been wiser to let Anakin join him and the other Jedi to come and arrest Palpatine?
Would Anakin have turned his back on the Jedi had he been trusted by Mace in the first place?

Being what a massive revelation the news that Palpatine is the Sith Master, was Yoda consulted before Mace went to arrest Palpatine?
Could the Jedi not have waited back a bit and play coy on the matter to try and work out a peaceful way to remove Palpatine from his position and also to get Anakin moved away from him somehow?
Anakin is basically half on the dark side as he leaves Palpatines office to go to Mace Windu to deliver the 'terrible truth'.
Mace Windu is not very patient is he?

 

In the novelisation, at least, he does. It's also got a good way of showing the impact of Anakin's information on Mace:

This is the moment that defines Mace Windu.
Not his countless victories in battle, nor the numberless battles his diplomacy has avoided. Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber. Not his dedication to the Jedi Order, or his devotion to the Republic that he serves.
But this.
Right here.
Right now.
Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love.
Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own:
"Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone. Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith.
Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.
But because he is Mace Windu, he takes this blow without a change of expression.
Because he is Mace Windu, within a second the man of sand is stone once more: pure Jedi Master, weighing coldly the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith without the chosen one—
Against the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith with a chosen one eaten alive by fear.
And because he is Mace Windu, the choice is no choice at all.
"Anakin, wait in the Council Chamber until we get back."
"Wh—what? Master—"
"That's an order, Anakin."
"But—but—but the Chancellor—" Anakin says desperately, clutching at the Jedi Master's hand. "What are you going to do?"
And it is the true measure of Mace Windu that, even now, he still is telling the truth when he says, "Only as much as I have to."


In the virtual nonspace of the HoloNet, two Jedi Masters meet.
One is ancient, tiny, with skin of green leather and old wisdom in his eyes, standing in a Kashyyyk cave hollowed from the trunk of a vast wroshyr tree; the other is tall and fierce, seated before a holodisk in Coruscant's Jedi Temple.
To each other, they are blue ghosts, given existence by scanning lasers. Though they are light-years apart, they are of one mind; it hardly matters who says what.
Now they know the truth.
For more than a decade, the Republic has been in the hands of the Sith.
Now, together, blue ghost to blue ghost, they decide to take it back.

 

I always felt an undercurrent of resentment between Mace and Anakin.
Mace was clearly against the idea of training Anakin in the first place in TPM. There are subtle hints of this conflict of interest between the two in AOTC. And in ROTS Mace openly opines that he does not trust Anakin and is doubtful of the supposed prophecy that surrounds him. Yoda also agreed with that assessment too.

 

There was no resentment on Mace's part, he was always pretty stoic. And there was nothing 'clear' about his opinion on wether Anakin should be trained or not either. In TPM, he merely states the Council's decision to Qui-Gon and the reason behind their decision. In AOTC, he actually shows faith in Anakin, he (and the Council) trusts him a solo mission and later states his belief that Anakin is the Chosen One.

It's only in ROTS that he shows distrust in Anakin, which is partially in consequence of Anakin's decisions at the end of AOTC, where he directly disobeyed Mace's command.

 

I think Anakin may have a specific beef with Mace as he sees him as the embodiment of the unjust/repressive council, due to Mace being the one who actually delivers the Council's verdicts. In addition, Anakin might well have issues with authority figures in general due to his past as a slave (notably both Sidious and Kenobi treated him as a friend first THEN as an apprentice, or pretended to in Sidious' case.)
Mace though had no specific problem with Anakin as a person, just his sometimes lax approach to the Code.

 

It's interesting because I do believe that Sidious/Palpatine had a relationship with Anakin that was genuine. He's evil of course. But even evil men can have evil/twisted friends.

I think Sheev Palpatine saw much of himself in Anakin, probably from his younger days, and I think he felt a genuine desire to mentor him and direct him to his thinking, which he eventually succeeded.

There relationship by the time of Return of the Jedi is obviously far different. Sheev at this point is a very old and crippled man, and his apprentice is now extremely conflicted and far, far weaker as an enforcer for the Empire than he ever was. This is where Sidious basically went back to old scheming days of the prequels and had the idea of turning Luke over to his side as he did with Anakin. The Emporer at this stage was clearly a bit mad batter in the head as his method of turning Luke was utterly weak and pointless.

His inability to sense the emerging light in Vader confirms how weak Palpatine is by this point in the saga.

 

And Anakin’s blow-out in Revenge of the Sith when he whined about not being granted the rank of Master despite being told he was on the Council.

I think Mace respected him, but at the same time knew Anakin had a lot to learn about humility and his place in the Force. He always struck me as a sort of no-nonsense guy, so when Anakin threw a temper tantrum in front of the Council, Mace must’ve concluded that Anakin had not yet matured; he was still a child.

As another said, he didn’t have anything against Anakin himself, just that he wished Anakin would at least try to make an attempt to understanding how a proper Jedi is supposed to act.

 

Yes, that probably helped too.

 

I've always thought Mace represented the orthodox Jedi Council position on Anakin, which makes it interesting to see how Obi-Wan starts out perfectly in agreement with them as a Padawan in TPM, but then after his great act of defiance (taking Anakin as his own Padawan) Obi-Wan is never again in sync with the Council (in AOTC he is justifiably concerned about Anakin where Mace is blithely dismissive, whereas in ROTS he has to come to trust Anakin unconditionally while Mace's opinion has again soured).

 

I disagree. Anakin enters the room after the fight and sees Mace prepared to kill what he thinks is a defenseless Chancellor. Had Anakin been there the entire time, Palps would have not been able to resist getting arrested (i.e. attack the Jedi) AND manipulate Anakin the way he does. He would either have to go quietly and continue to play the politician to get out of the situation (he IS the senate after all ) or fight the Jedi, including Anakin who, no matter how conflicted he was, would have instinctively fought Palps.

 

This could be my faulty memory but isn't there a section in one of the old EU books (possibly even the ROTS novelization) where Mace toys with the idea of he himself being the chosen one?

 

It all comes down to this:

"I need him!" - Anakin Skywalker

And because he needs Palpatine, he was going to get away. That's all that matters. Anakin put his fear and selfishness over everything else.

 

I like this thread/question!

I think had Anakin attended, it would have been game, set and match for the Jedi. Because Palpatine would be forced to then do all of this in front of Anakin. What Anakin saw, was he walked in on a Jedi Master with a lightsaber in the face of the Chancellor.

I like how Mace bested Palpatine. I like how the scene shows that the reason everything happened from that point, was Anakin's choice. His betrayal.

Now he had various reasons, primarily to save Padme. And he believed the only way to do that was through Palpatine. Given Palpatine wasn't coming quietly, the only way to do that was disarming Windu. But he clearly shows regret and feels he has no choice from that point, when Palpatine ejects the Jedi Master from the building.

As for Mace's patience, well going by the film only, I feel he probably decided he had to act (in that way Anakin and Mace were of a similar ethos). However he should have contacted the rest of the Council/other Jedi/other Senators. But unlike Palpatine who was a masterful politician (and who twisted the arrest attempt into a coup/rebellion against the Republic itself), Mace just went for it.

I think though on the other hand, Mace offered Palpatine 2 chances:
1. Initial arrest upon entering the office.
2. After disarming Palpatine who resisted arrest, offer is given again.

Palpatine resisted yet again with Lightning. Clearly he was "too dangerous to keep alive," and by that point Mace realised the political ramifications since Palpatine controlled everything, it wouldn't get them anywhere. However, Mace needed to be more patient like Yoda and utilise the Chosen One.

I do think Anakin should have been taken along though yes. Would other Jedi have been helpful? Unless Yoda or Obi Wan, probably not given how quickly Palpatine defeated them. You need top level Jedi to attend that dance off.

 

Mace gave a pretty solid argument for why Anakin shouldn't go:

"I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment."

And he was right.

 

Are we sure that Palpatine/Sidious actually lost to Mace though, just as Anakin walks in might I add?
And then Sidious almost starts acting up as he shoots his lightning in front of Anakin to see and watch as he transforms into his crippled persona.
He then starts almost squarming 'don't kill me...... please.......' watch his facial expressions in that scene, he seems to be acting out in that scene so as to intensify Anakin feeling that Mace is murdering someone without legal justification.

 

This is Palpatine realizing he might just be killed:

 

Watch a video on YouTube. Watch how Sidious makes eye contact with Anakin. Anakin is clearly focused on Mace in this moment... This is an act!

 

It's only an act when he pretends to be weak. It's not an act when Windu raises his lightsaber and is about strike.

 

What will really bake your noodle is that originally, Anakin was there the whole time.



In this version Anakin has already joined Palpatine and refuses to stand aside when the Posse come for Sidious.

Faulty memory. It was never suggested that he might be the Chosen One in "Shatterpoint", the ROTS novelization, "Labyrinth Of Evil", the Boba Fett young adult book, nor the comics. He's always believed in Anakin until ROTS.

 

Sidious at this point was quite confident that Anakin wasn't going to let him die. That's my feeling. It's the same in ROTJ when Luke struck out at him but Vader stopped Luke.

 

I too get the feeling that Palpatine was in control of the entire situation and knew Anakin would defend him. I think it was very clever how Lucas had Anakin choose between Palpatine, a father figure and mentor and Mace, the Jedi who always seemed (in Anakin's eyes) to be giving Anakin a hard time.

 

Or maybe it was Sam Jackson begging to get a cool death scene, and not be taken out like a sucka...

This is a good idea for a thread. I like the dynamic that Mace's character brings to the council. He's a really good character. He and Anakin do seem to ultimately respect each other, and in the tv show, can work well together.

 

How is that possible? If he was pretending to be weak, it means that he was always able to fight back again (as he does right after Anakin cuts Mace's hand). To me, it's obvious that the whole thing is just an act to get Anakin involved.

Others might feel otherwise, and think that Palpatine was truly defeated. But I don't see how you can say that he WAS pretending, but at that specific moment he was truly afraid.

 

He's able to fight back, what he's not able is to defend himself from Mace's strike to kill.