ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I have no idea what the relative strengths and weaknesses of men and women are, or whether they even exist in any meaningfully deterministic way, and I'm not really interested in having that debate here because it would cause a massive derail. I just don't see anything inherently wrong with the princess fantasy, especially when it's already a subversive warrior-princess fantasy. I don't care that Leia is a general, I just don't like how it's been weirdly politicized and turned into a quasi-rebuke of the OT like so many other aspects of these new films.

 

You said god, I said superhero...

So based on the OT - she should be what? A jedi? The Chancellor? If you accept the state of the galaxy, I think she is exactly where she should be. I really don't get what was wrong with her treatment.

 

Also the way that that scenes plays in the film left quite a few people with the impression that if Luke hadn't done what he did, that Kylo wouldn't have turned on him.

 

And what is Leia supposed to be a princess of anymore? A planet that was blown up 4 decades ago?

She's the leader of the resistance. They call it general. I doubt that she wants a title like "supreme leader" or anything like that.

 

God in SW context? Yes. Force users move things with their minds. I said small “g” god. So is Rey, and Kylo, and Luke, and Snoke. I’m sure if Rey made the choice to stop using the force because she’s much more interested in fighting without her magical powers, you’d agree with this decision and condemn critics of the decision as “needing” her to be an overpowered superhero.

 

He was already gone. He wouldn't have turned on him that night, but he had already given to the dark side.

That's my impression and I could be wrong - but I think Luke basically stated it.

 

Ok. but what was her natural trajectory from the OT, not the EU?

 

According to Mark Hamill, Lucas's treatments involved Leia becoming a Jedi, just as ROTJ implied was to happen. It's weird that you keep insisting the ST's way of doing things was the only possible way to do things, when there were actually clear and readily available alternatives.

Ask George Lucas? Maybe he would know.

Naw....

 

She can be a general AND have force powers. It’s not hard to imagine. In fact, it makes total sense. Before she became a general and formed the Resistance, Leia was a politician in the new canon. And check it out - she could have been a politician with force powers. There’s a theme here. Force users should be able to use the force.

 

To be fair, she does use the Force, but it's treated like an afterthought rather than as an integral part of her arc.

 

I thought that at first, but then I realized...I think Rey’s “he was still conflicted” rings true.

So you have a situation where Luke saw something that made him think Kylo *had already fallen to the dark side.* But he was mistaken.

Hopefully we’ll learn a bit more about that in 9.

 

They act like it’s a moment of instinct, and it’s the only time. In canon she didn’t develop her abilities, like that’s a thing anyone would choose to not have. Bloodline? Nope. She doesn’t use the force. We have thirty years of history for the new EU to fill in, and we know there won’t be a story of Leia training with the force. That’s garbage.

 

Along these lines I'm really not that comfortable with Finn getting his ass physically handed to him by both Rey and Rose upon him first encountering them. Not because there's anything wrong with them being able to physically best him--that is fine--but the manner in which the violence against Finn casually serves as a "Look, Strong Woman!" flashing light strikes me as lazy characterization at best, and downright problematic at worst.

 

I never asked anybody to guess at what Lucas would have done, or allegedly said he wanted to do.

 

Mark Hamill read Lucas's treatments and talked to Lucas himself and this is what he said quite plainly:

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take this with a grain of salt. It makes sense that that would have been in Lucas's treatments, because Luke training Leia as a Jedi is one of the major implications left at the end of ROTJ. And I'm not sure what motivation Hamill would have to lie about this, nor am I sure how he could have made a mistake about whether such a basic plot thread did or did not exist in those treatments. All this to say that your apparent skepticism seems unwarranted.

The point being that there's no reason the Leia-as-Jedi plot point couldn't have been included in the ST. George Lucas was going to include it. Mark Hamill seems to think that it was a pretty important part of the story given the way he talks regretfully about its lack of inclusion. So I don't know why you persist in arguing that the way the ST handled Leia was the only way to have done it. It's a nonsensical argument on its face, because of course there were other ways many things could have been done. But in this case it's especially nonsensical because the creator of the series originally wanted to do it the way you're vehemently arguing could never have been a possibility.

 

Leia not being better established as a force user is yet another example of where TLJ had to play catch-up on things TFA should have done a better job establishing.

Show her in her chambers moving objects with her mind in meditation when Rey comes in to speak to her. Something subtle like that could have better set up her survival force pull later. Also, doesn’t the TLJ novelization confirm that she did do some minor training with Luke? I seem to recall that it did.

Leia was sidelined in the Force story of the OT brutally though. She basically had to hear everything from Luke second hand. It’s no wonder she hasn’t fully made peace with Vader as her father yet. She heard it all second hand after.

Perhaps she never wanted to go as far down the path as Luke did specifically because she still resented Vader and didn’t want to be a Jedi like her father. Perhaps that’s why she admired Padmé and her path more?

 

I recall Bloodline or something addressing the issue as she started her training soon after RotJ and both her and Luke basically lost interest or whatever. They closed the door on it. I will never understand that ridiculous decision. I assumed after TFA that Leia had developed her force abilities and there just wasn't a need for her to use them in that movie. With TLJ, I'm pretty sure RJ has described her moment as instinctual, not as something that she intentionally is capable of doing due to rigorous practice. There's a reason it apparently never occurred to RJ that Leia should have been much better at moving those boulders at the end than Rey.

 

Leia putting off training for several years out of fear of becoming like Vader makes sense imo. Seeing her, Ben and Anakin’s Force Ghost hash things out in the trilogy was something I wanted to see. And possibly Ben named a kid Anakin Solo. One of the biggest missed opportunities imo.

 

I assumed she had training, considering she survived an explosion intact and also vaccum exposure and also flew through space after all of that.

That was more than Anakin with 13 (?) years of training could ever manage. He certainly couldn’t use the Force to prevent himself from being burned by lava or have not his internal organs suffer permanent damage.

But my issue is not whether or not Leia can asspull crazy Force abilities, is that she can but only when it’s convenient to her. It would have been more meaningful and emotional if she used the Force to save someone other than herself.

Like, I would much rather have simply a “Leia lifting the rocks” scene to save the Resistance.

 

I think there's an actual reason they are cagey about Leia's force abilities. Luke is supposed to be the last Jedi. If Leia knows anything really about the force, Rey should have shrugged at Luke's intransigence and simply returned to Leia. She shouldn't have stuffed herself in a box and shipped herself to Kylo for force guidance or... whatever specifically she went to him for.

So basically, Leia's character was effectively fridged because it complicated their ability to rip off the OT. It's a perfect example of contorting the characters to fit their playbook as opposed to allowing the characters and the story to naturally flow.

 

Basically.

I also feel that having Leia using the Force was not an important or impactful narrative point, but just a shallow bone throwing to the fans, that ironically only highlighted how sidelined her character is from this empty love letter to the OT.

 

If they wanted to make Leia using the force important or impactful, it would have involved either:

1. Saving the Resistance; or
2. Trying to save her son.

 

Leia’s whole arc is one where she’s free of ego though. Leia is trying to get the young people around her to see their potential. It’s why she rhetorically asks, “What are you looking at me for?” When Poe has a good idea. She likely sensed Rey’s presence & of her trying to move the boulders and knew the significance of her having such a breakthrough. Leia cares more about protecting the Light and seeing that the torch is passed and that the young people around her learn what they need to than she does trying to look like a hero. I like that quality about her. In Bloodline they tell us she liked being underestimated by her political rivals. She could sense their disrespect and would use the force to work the room better.

 

Why would she fear that. She is nothing like Vader or Anakin.

I do agree though on missed opportunities.

Also just as a sidebar there is a rumor the new thrawn book is going to be #1 on the best seller list. It’s so interesting to me that Zahn is twice a nyt bestseller and that people love his content. As posted earlier in the thread I really missed his evolution of the universe compared to what we got. I wish he was running the story group!

His version of the imperial remnant vs aftermath... his evolution of leia... I actually think the best post rotj continuation so far is shattered empire but it’s mostly overlooked as not extremely important.

I also can’t believe It has been so long since the movie was released. I still have a hard time with the character dynamics, the plot, and the world building. The fact that 9 is the end of the Skywalker saga feels like such a waste. Keeping Luke around to rebuild the jedi order could have spawned so many great stories and provided a great business opportunity.


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