ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

The problem is that a lot of Kylo fans DO understand this and don't need to spell it out in every single post so that the "other side" can feel it's being admitted. It's a given. And from my POV the issue is that unless you say this in every post the non-Kylo-fans feel that it is being left out and so they must inform the Kylo-fans of the obvious.

From my point of view, the Rey/Kylo IX thread is often focused on "how shall we condemn Kylo Ren for his deeds" or "here's a list of Kylo Ren's evil deeds and explanations about why they are evil" or "this character is despicable because of these evil deeds." To me, most of this stuff rings as having no meaning because I know what Kylo Ren has done, I agree that he is evil (though not ALL evil) and a villain. I agree. What I generally disagree with is the attitude of constant condemnation because it just isn't my interest in stories. My interest isn't in pointing out the evil doers and going over and over about their evil deeds and why they are evil and why they are wrong and then working out the proper punishment the character deserves. Because this isn't my interest doesn't mean there is no acknowledgment--it's just I don't care about listing Kylo's evil deeds ad nauseam. And I can't generate constant emotional outrage about them.

I am not personally offended by the character and what he has done and I am rarely personally offended by any fictional character--and even when I am, I usually just focus on what I'm more interested in. I just don't watch movies to point out all the characters I don't like and have issues with--I like to gravitate towards things I find interesting instead and rehashing my dislike of characters isn't an area of personal interest. I like to try to understand most characters and if there are characters I'm not trying to understand it's simply because I'm not interested enough at the time or it's not pertaining enough to my personal life to be of value at present. My interest in Kylo's character has to do with aspects I can relate to or see hints of in myself that affect my life, and it's something I use fictional characters as tools for. It's also about my interest in humanity or human nature (warts and all) and my need to understand human nature (warts and all).

 

This. Oh, so much this.

If people could just stop with the morality lectures and just understand this concept, discourse would be so much more pleasant here and everywhere.

But there is a little known secret I would like to share with everyone here:

Fans of Kylo Ren already know he is a villain and has done bad stuff.

No really, we do. We don't need a list outlining every bad deed he did including cheat on that math test in seventh grade. We know who he killed, what he said and what he has destroyed.

Trust me, we've seen the films. We know exactly what he is and what he is done.

Listing it over and over again feels a bit like an obnoxious cudgel at this point, if not condescending. It's kind of like having a cat sitting on the counter at this point. Anything the cat doesn't like, it gets knocked down immediately.

Hell, it feels like a really bad drinking game. If I took a swig for every time Twilight or Fifty Shades (you guys realize the latter started off as fanfic for the former, so it's kind of the sme thing right?) was mentioned to derail an actual conversation or every time Han's death is trotted out as Exhibit A, I would be hammered more than I would want to be.

After all, we're all grown adults around here. As for me, and I can only speak for me, this is my first foray into cheering for a villain to pull his head out of his ass. I'm usually a fan of the heroes, but there is a first time for everything. Maybe I see a little of my own flaws, insecurities, fury and mistakes exaggerated in a fictional character on some level. Maybe it's because he's an interesting, conflicted character for me. Maybe it's because he's my two favorite character's child. Maybe it's because I'm a sucker for the underdog and love stories of redemption and reconciliation. Maybe it's because Driver sold the role well enough that I gave the character a second look after the I saw the film a second time. Maybe l like the enemies to lovers dynamic.

You know what? It doesn't matter,and I don't care what anyone thinks. My fannish preferences are not up for judgement, nor is up for a majority vote.

Just like someone's love for Maul, Dooko (I love Christopher Lee as much as the next person), Plagieus (Still not exactly sure who he is or if that is how you really spell his name) or Vader or Palps or Ventress (never seen the cartoon, no clue who she really is, but you rock you if that is your favorite character) is up for debate. Liking a villain is no different than liking Luke, Han, Leia, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Rey, Finn, Poe, etc.

You all like what you're going to like, and the reasons are all different. We aren't carbon copies of each other and what resonates with us will all be different.

 

While I agree with you about the quotes being annoying, I know that when I post from my iPad rather than from my computer, it is harder to eliminate a lot of quotes, because it takes a lot of time to delete the words one by one, letter by letter. . With a computer’s mouse, it’s a whole lot easier and faster. So, when I use my iPad, I tend to just leave most of the old quotes there. I am sorry about that, but it saves time..

 

iPhone formatting makes the whole quote thing a pain to edit. I’ve killed formatting more often than not trying to clip if editing on my phone, so that is my I sometimes leave them intact.

 

Sociopolitical implications such as messaging to viewers, especially younger ones, that the emotional pain an abuser feels should be taken into account when seeking justice for the pain they've inflicted on their victim. Basically excuse-making to falsely minimize the extent of what they've done. And teaching that a toxic relationship is still worth nurturing.

The disconnect for me would come in assuming those implications automatically come packaged with Rey directly doing something that motivates Kylo to turn back. Also that if she played that role, in any capacity, it would somehow (don't ask me how) be her only role in the story.

 

Agreed.

But there are still plenty of Kylo fans that argue, no, he's not objectively horrible. They will argue and bicker dishonestly and pretend he's not. If they stopped, the arguments would stop, or at least be reduced.

Another suggestion for Kylo fans: do not beg the obvious responses.

If you say something like "he's done nothing wrong!", then you're gonna get the laundry list. Do not beg the laundry list. Anticipate the laundry list, and choose your comments in a way that avoids it. Be tactical.

This isn't much to ask. I do this all the time. When I'm defending something, I try to anticipate the possible responses, and I shape my comment in a way to prevent them. I take away that line of response.

And, as tedious and annoying as it is, sometimes you have to throw in some "imo" and "I know Kylo is evil" preemptive strikes until you reach an understanding with people.

These are just tactics I use to help me avoid annoying responses. I still get them, though, because sometimes it can't be helped.

 

@oncafar and @Birkendoc
Words can't express how much I agree with both of your posts on this. So very much.

I like what characters I like. I root for who I root for. Characters interest me or they don't. They resonate with me or they don't. It's the same with couples and character relationships. I don't sit with a moral checklist or worry about whether it's "problematic" what I'm into with fiction. That's not how I set out to consume fiction. I've been in (and out of some) fandoms since I got a computer in 2000, and I've rooted for/been interested in a wide range of characters from villains, to anti-heroes, to heroes, to everyone inbetween and have also enjoyed the ocassional sliding scale with characters. My favorite characters in each fandom have been all over the map, and a lot of times those characters have been in direct opposition to each other or even tried to kill one another. To use examples.... My favorite MCU character is Loki, but Steve Rogers is certainly in my top 5. With Once Upon a Time, I've never not rooted for Regina above everyone else (even when she was killing nameless villagers, I freely admit), though my second favorite is Emma, who was the heroine to Regina's villain for the beginning of the show.

For me, it tends to be about what characters I feel are dynamic, or well written or well acted, or are interesting and compelling....any or all of those. It's not about not acknowledging a character is a villain.

 

Personally, I’m approaching this thread in the context of speculating what will happen next.

Kylo’s actions and mainstream morality as reflected in movies are relevant in this respect.

As I see it, it’s not so much how *I personally* judge Kylo - it’s what his depiction can tell us about how the creators want us to feel about the character and his ultimate fate, considering analagous situations in mainstream movies aimed at this general audience demo.

 

If you are referring to people on this forum, I don't think it's fair to accuse them of being dishonest in their opinions of a fictional character. I don't agree with everything said by every "Kylo-fan" but I wouldn't assume them to be being dishonest. I also know that they are considering a fictional character and so it is not a crime if someone doesn't consider the character as horrible or rather post about how horrible the character is, in every post.

Beyond this, the notion of "objectively horrible" seems to me to be a subjective notion especially when it comes with specific implications (which I am not sure what those implications are when you apply this term). This leaves room for disagreement. It also means that if someone is focused on the character's potential for good they may cross wires with those who really only consider the character as a list of awful deeds which to them prove the extent of the person. What is the extent of a person? This is kind of a philosophical question and it's more complex to me than saying "objectively horrible."

Are these suggestions to Kylo fans to not be pounced on any time they imagine something good about the character that doesn't resonate with the way that those who despise the character view him? And I don't recall too many examples of anyone saying Kylo Ren has done nothing wrong. I have seen arguments where people paint some of his deeds in a better light than I would see them in but even those arguments don't seem to be saying "he has done nothing wrong." I am not really sure that anyone is "begging obvious responses." I think people are expressing their views of a fictional character. I mean, we need to be tactical about that???

I guess I see others as responsible for their responses and don't see the need to cater to people and interject with "I know this character is evil" in every other post when I see this as stating the obvious anyway. For a while I had a list of all his crimes in my signature, and I don't think that helped anything at all.

 

Yet people who identify with the heroes will endlessly excuse or deny their faults. Luke for example stood over his nephew with a lightsaber with the intent to kill him, but Luke fans frequently act like he did nothing wrong and shift 100% of the blame to Ben.

 

TLJ explicitly depicted Luke as a messianic hero ie Jesus figure ie Fundamentally Good Dude. So I guess his moral culpability re Ben wasn’t anything a simple “sorry” couldn’t fix.

As for Ben’s culpability - I think the situation was a bit more conplicated than that. I think he was still genuinely conflicted, and Luke was mistaken. I think, too, that in his warped perception he saw Luke as some monster about to kill him (although this of course makes his other perceptions rather suspect). Given that, I could understand him bringing the hut down on Luke. Doesn’t explain murdering the other students, though.

Of course, we don’t know if what Luke believes Ben did was accurate. Just as we don’t know if what Kylo saw in Rey’s mind was accurate. Just as we don’t know if that was Luke’s *only* lie-by-omission to Rey.

So much in this movie that perhaps should not be taken at face value, eh?

 

I think I'm not very interested in the very topic of how bad Kylo Ren is. Kylo Ren is bad. I will judge him to be less bad than some bad and more bad than other bad, and it's all a subjective exercise.

I don't really care how bad or not Luke is either. I can understand why Luke did what he did, which ironically involves understanding the evil (in the form of Kylo) that Luke perceived.

And why this thread seems to have primary topic of how bad is Kylo Ren, is beyond me.

I'm curious about this translation of @RiddleMeThis post. Did he say that Kylo isn't responsible at all, for instance? How do you justify this translation?

 

Yes but it seems some people are so convinced they are right that they can't hear other people anyway. I understand the moral objections regarding Kylo Ren. How can I possibly miss them when they are so frequent. But because I understand doesn't mean I have to adopt a philosophy centered on condemnation.

I personally see no room for agreement between sides here because there are too many differences on a fundamental level. These differences include how we view and use fiction, how literal/concrete vs. metaphorical/abstract we are, how sympathetic we are towards fictional characters, our philosophies, etc.

And yes I find the arguments about how Rey should be according to some very cold, so I'm being honest when I say that.

 

Sure. I do it all over the forums. I've taken up plenty of unpopular defenses. It was advice, and I find it does help prevent certain unwanted responses.

I know you find this unfair and tiresome. So do I. It's not going to change because it's not actually against the rules here. So I've come up with tactics to try to prevent it.

I've seen enough. And, really, unfortunately it only takes one to get the ball rolling and suck everyone in. Even Kylo fans who are usually more reasonable get sucked into big arguments about comments they didn't even make. Everyone gets dragged down.

Let's put it this way.

You argue that Kylo wasn't abusive (which has happened plenty)? You beg arguments that he was. You argue that Kylo is X or is not X (which happens regularly)? You beg arguments that he is X or isn't X. Those arguments often come with obvious points. It's a debate thread. Arguments beg counterarguments. Don't be surprised if you question whether or not Kylo is "horrible", for example, and you get his laundry lists of crimes in response as proof that he is horrible.

I've done my share of defending unpopular/evil characters. I've learned to pick my battles.

I mentioned my favorite character is Ventress.

But she's a murderer!

Yep. I don't bother to deny it or post "but". I don't respond to points about murder with Ventress' childhood abandonment. I give them absolutely nothing to argue with. Nothing to carry on with. What can they say when I shut down that line of response by agreeing with it, with no rebuttal?

There are other lines of discussion, other ways, other tactics, to make inroads in the discussion. It works fairly often. I'm just sharing some of the success I've had.

Need? No. There's really no rule in the TOS about being tactical with your posts.

It's something I do because I find it improves my experience here.

Sure. People are responsible for their responses. I've accepted that, no matter what I try to do to prevent them, I'm going to get some annoyingly obvious responses in return. It's just going to happen. Sometimes I want to punch my screen when I get them.

I can't control anyone else's posts. I can only control my own. Sometimes, I can influence responses with the way I post. Only sometimes. But I find sometimes better than never. That's my approach.

And what happens when they do that? They get certain responses.

I can make a point about how (why is another matter) it becomes about how bad is Kylo Ren. When people argue it. Someone who thinks Kylo is super bad says how super bad he is and makes obvious points why. Kylo fans argue in response.

One way to prevent this is not to argue. Ignore it. It's your only chance. Well, that, or try to actively change the topic to one you find more desirable. To do that, you kinda have to ignore the argument you don't like. You have to avoid addressing it and making it a topic of discussion.

 

Because it’s relevant to the ultimate direction and fate of Kylo and Rey’s relationship in 9.

In her response to my post, earlier, she seemed to. She claimed Kylo doesn’t know right from wrong; and someone who can’t tell right from wrong can’t be morally culpable.

 

@CT-867-5309 one thing I would say is that Ventress is not as bad as Kylo Ren. I see her as villain-lite. I liked Dooku phrasing in Dark Disciple--she merely flirts with the dark side. I think this is relative in that from the POV of someone like Dooku, it is flirting. I think it's a bit more than that. But it doesn't change that Ventress crosses easily into anti-hero territory, and she does not try to wash out all sentiment. Her sentimental streak in TCW is quite alluring for viewers like me who like finding the good in villains

 

I often preface or end a lot of my comments concerning this topic by saying something like "I am in no way trying to justify Kylo's actions" or "This is not a justification for Kylo's actions", but that these are points I am making despite that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've found that tends to alleviate a lot of that back and forth that could take place. From what I've seen, responses to my comments usually address the actual points I am making, versus getting bogged down in whether or not I actually understand that Kylo is evil. And I feel like that particular phrase as a lead in or conclusion to my comment, in addition to the points I am making, is a good way to do that.

And I'm only referencing Kylo here because we are talking about Kylo. I do the same for other evil doers I find myself discussing.

On the other hand, that's just something I do, and why I do it. I'm not suggesting everyone should have to feel the same way. Because I would hate for something like that to become this kind of informal or unofficial motion we now have to put forth any time we discuss topics that might also have other varying implications, that we are still fully aware of, but simply wish to discuss other aspects of said topic. It would seem almost the equivalent of placing "FWIW" or "OTOH" before every comment, and would completely reduce it's meaning if that just became the standard around here.

I don't think that post was necessarily making a point about Luke being relevant to the discussion about Kylo. I think it was merely using that as an example of how some individuals justify bad behavior in one character while condemning it in another, when the same standards should be applied to all characters. Again, I think that was merely an example brought up to highlight that. I do not think it was at all trying to bring Luke into the discussion about Kylo.

 

If you're referring to me, I'm a guy. It's in my profile. And you're also dead wrong about what I said.