ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

I was very specific. On Han, I said between Rey and Kylo. Leia’s reaction in TFA is irrelevant because my point is about TLJ. TFA portrayed Kylo as the out and out villain. And you ignored all the crimes I mentioned just liked TLJ did lol. So ignoring them doesn’t make them cease to exist, except narratively it does diminish them in importance, which was obviously the goal of the film that treated Kylo as a love interest co-protagonist.

I’m critiquing the story. If you take that personally, that’s not really my problem. I absolutely don’t think this is a good redemption story. I still understand that it works just fine for some. I simply disagree. That you think it’s good doesn’t make me feel personally insulted for my opinion.

Because you acted liked there being children there was an obvious foregone conclusion, and clearly it wasn’t. Emphasizing the pain of children is very different narratively.

And yeah, I think “angsty hot” is exactly what RJ was going for. I don’t think he intended the shirtless scene to be a joke.

I see a huge difference in how JJ wrote Kylo versus RJ. If you don’t cool, but your references to generic public statements by producers means zero either way.

 

As was I, yet you ignored those points I highlighted above. I didn't ignore anything in fact I directly replied here;

TLJ didn't ignore anything; the plot was fast paced however so more focus was on what was happening 'here & now'. It's not that TLJ's narrative skipped these things, but that you didn't like they way they were dealt with, which is a matter of preference and not the same thing.

Oh I don't take things strangers on the internet say personally at all; but your judging of an unfinished story as 'not good', doesn't mean it actually isn't, nor does it mean that if JJ creates a 'better' (IYO) redemption arc for Kylo, you won't enjoy it. I never said I think it's 'good' so don't put words in my mouth, I think the story they've told is just fine; but as it's unfinished can't make a judgment of whether it's good or bad yet.

Where did I act like it was a foregone conclusion? All I stated was my understanding that they were which was backed up by the TFA novel, and you agreed, so clearly it was? Again, narratively an event that occurred before TFA in which he does the same & worse, has less bearing on IX then what occurred in TLJ.

Okay, even though JJ on the TFA commentary (released long after he'd read the TLJ script) described Kylo as looking like a prince? Or gushed about how his & Rey's relationship would be 'very interesting' moving forward? Of course the shirtless scene wasn't a 'joke', it was a scene showing that neither could control the Force connection.

You can see a 'huge difference' in how JJ wrote Kylo vs RJ, but that's your opinion that isn't backed up by anything JJ has said (public or not). There was nothing generic about what he said and actually one of the comments was said off the record to a best friend, who is again appearing in IX. The fact is if someone dislikes or disagrees with a direction someone else takes their character(s), they don't continue to support that film by word or action. And yeah that means a lot more then a personal opinion.

 

I don’t understand what you’re referencing here. None of this points to the narrative acknowledging Kylo’s crimes against Rey, Finn, Leia, or his allegiance to genocidal mass murderers. Literally all of that was ignored and you ignored it here as well.

I’m not arguing my opinion is objective fact. I also know your opinion is not objective fact. This part of the conversation is entirely pointless to me.

You’re talking about ambiguous public statements. I’m talking about scripts. I don’t care about JJ’s ambiguous public statements or how some individuals choose to interpret them.

 

No I didn't, just because you didn't see (or like) the way they handled it in TLJ doesn't mean 'they' ignored it. But since this isn't the ST released films thread nor the ST criticism thread, it's probably best to drop this topic in order to stay on topic.

Okay.

You've seen the TLJ script? Can you share the link because I was under the impression it hadn't been released yet!

 

It has nothing to do with what I like, and as far as what I can see, I’m perfectly capable of reading. And again you ignored it lol. That’s cool, it just makes my point. There’s a narrative reason to ignore such things, just like there’s a narrative reason to emphasize and highlight innocent children that Kylo Ren terrorized intentionally.

I’ve seen the movie. If you want to get snarky about irrelevancies, have fun with that with someone else.

 

I haven't ignored it at all; despite your claims that I have, lol. Nor have I made your point. You don't think when Rey was telling Luke about the evils Kylo & the FO had done and why they needed him to help the Resistance they were referring to the things we witnessed in TFA? Did Ret et. al. need to literally list Kylo/the FO's crimes in TLJ? Wait, now Kylo intentionally targeted those children to terrorize them?

Snarky? I just was taking your post at face value, when you said script I thought that's what you meant not watching the film... & there's generally a big difference between what we see on screen & what's in the script. But here we come again to personal preference; just because you felt RJ treated Kylo differently then JJ doesn't mean he did. If JJ had written a script for 8 that was very different or straight out said he disagreed or disliked where RJ took Kylo then you'd have a point.

 

She talked generically about Kylo’s power and about the FO conquering the major systems. No that did not narratively emphasize his personal crimes. It was basically a political conversation. She certainly did not talk about the trillions dead via the Fo’s genocide, and more importantly, she never brought that up to Kylo.

And yes, slaughtering a village = intentionally targeting every single person in the village. Lol at your narrow eyed emoji like that’s some kind of novel point.

I have a point and I’m making it. You disagree. That’s cool. And yes, I think JJ portrayed Kylo stalking Rey and Finn after patricide like a horror movie villain, just like Resistance did. OTOH, RJ was really keen on showing off his hot pecs as Rey came to angst over his soul.

 

It was reported that Kylo Ren showed up at the SAG AFTRA Foundation's 3rd Annual Patron of the Artists Awards at Wallis Annenberg Center for the Performing Arts in in Beverly Hills - that was a mouthful - last night...





He obviously left his light saber at home.

And, dad showed up, too (obviously pre-TFA)

 

Okay, so she did talk about Kylo & the FO then.... We saw his crimes, how much more can the narrative emphasize them then that? She called Kylo a monster; and told him he'd 'pay for what he'd done', that doesn't seem like 'never' bringing it up to him. But again we're discussing TLJ in the IX thread.
I was referring to the way it seemed you were saying that Kylo 'intentionally targeted' those particular children; nothing more. And that's a raised eyebrow emoji not a narrow eyed one, nor did I suggest it was a 'novel point'.

Your point is your personal opinion about what another person thinks about a third person's story choices; none of which you can possibly know for a fact. Ah, RJ's exposition of Kylo's hot pecs; I wondered when they'd enter into the discussion!

 

I don't know if you're deliberately missing my point or not, but I'm skeptical. A discussion of the current state of the galaxy is not a narrative emphasis on the horrors Kylo has personally inflicted. This was a movie that blatantly asked the audience to sympathize with Rey's sympathy for Kylo's soul. It did that while ignoring what Kylo did to Rey personally, what he did to Finn personally, what he did to his mother personally. It ignored any fallout from the genocide or the dead students, not even one of whom was mourned in any personal way by Luke. That is all very different from listening to nightmarish tales of his horrors from the mouths of babes Kylo personally terrorized.

He did intentionally target those particular children and everyone else in the village just because they were in the village. Is your point that he didn't know or care about them on a personal level? It's irrelevant to my point, but it does highlight his sociopathy. Regardless, my point was his premeditation and his intent to murder everyone in the village, as portrayed in the episode.

I love pics like that. They emphasize what a joke I personally find that scene to be. And of course the pecs came up. You tried to make a point about me thinking Kylo was portrayed as angsty-hot. Yeah, shirtless whiny Kylo is certainly relevant to RJ portraying Kylo as angsty-hot.

 

Just because I don't want to get too far afield here, because I'm interested in the implications for IX, the point here that I believe @IncessantRamblings is arguing with is my opinion that RJ and JJ portrayed Kylo differently, and the Resistance episode to me indicates a return to JJ's approach to the character for IX. Rey's lack of a pov in concluding that Kylo is a sympathetic figure is my point about the narrative ignoring his crimes. Rey's non-existent thoughts on his crimes against her and Finn, coupled with Luke's non-emphasis on any personal human lives lost or what Kylo did to Leia, go to the narrative ignoring the fallout from his crimes in order to instead focus on how mean Luke was to Kylo. The Resistance episode didn't provide any pov for Kylo. It only gave a pov to terrified children he terrorized. That's how scary villains are portrayed. And not-too-coincidentally, JJ ended TFA with Kylo being belligerently scary.

 

You don't seem to understand that Resistance is a prequel to TFA, not a sequel to TLJ.

It suggests nothing other than characterization has moved on after two films. Where Kylo Ren was under Snoke (his emotional state and his belief in Snoke's guidance really changed at Han's death, though the conflict tearing him away from his path began when he met Rey) is not the self-loathing, broken mess whose flimsy, cracking grasp on power is nothing but a poisoned chalice where it's lonely at the top and not what he really wants after a combination of TFA and TLJ, which are entirely consistent with each other. Ben Solo is the character with the most growth to undertake and he's already had the most character work of the trilogy.

J.J. loved the direction Rian took the story so much that he wished he had directed it himself. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think the executive producer of TLJ is going to undo what he loved and you didn't like.

Well-written redemption stories don't pull punches about the past even if in the process of showing the gradual shift (it's not always just after they're at full-blown hero status, as sometimes the past reveals are placed there as setbacks). Again, this tells more about what we've watched in our past fandoms. I've watched too many redemption stories to know that flashbacks to the past are often doubled down on in darkness (sometimes even worse than initially told--the redemptive character often feels shame and insecurity, and so avoids telling too much to people he loves until he has no choice) to contrast what has become of the character in the present who might even be the hero protagonist. The past is often used as a way to have the character face who they used to be and have them struggle as the past comes to bite them in the ass in their endless atonement. Yes, sometimes even the victims end up having morally ambiguous vengeance against the former villain/redemptive hero, only to find themselves destroyed by it. Redemptive characters often fall down, relapse and have setbacks.

Ben Solo is well on the path to being such a character who faces that sort of thing. He's not Palpatine or Vader and I sincerely doubt they're just going to change course to please people who don't understand the trope he's already following. He was further along already in TFA in having doubts than Vader was until the end of RotJ and was already past what Vader achieved in TLJ (Vader didn't survive killing his abuser). Unlike Vader, who was an old man more machine than man who was barely being kept alive (and had done far worse for far longer with far fewer conflicted feelings), Ben has the chance to have to live with what he's done if he has the strength to survive it and learn from it.

Some of the most interesting antiheroes were characters who were REALLY bad in their backstories. It gives them even more motive to atone when it's hard and gives them endless empathy for others who are also struggling. They make great teachers, because they know what it's like to have failed and are less judgmental. Ben Solo would be the ideal mentor in a fourth trilogy.

 

This movie didn't 'blatantly ask the audience to sympathize' with Rey's compassion for Kylo. It just showed it, just like the same Rey showed compassion to BB-8 in TFA & accepted Finn even though he had lied to her. That's an aspect of Rey's character, simple as that. It didn't ignore what Kylo had done to Rey personally (or Finn or Han, etc.), I'm pretty sure that's why Rey was so angry at him during their first couple of Force connections (even going so far as to try to shoot him). It ignored the dead students? The ones that the film showed and Luke explained what happened to? And their destruction was part of the reason Luke went into exile in the first place? Luke looked like someone in mourning to me. But again it seems you wanted Rey to list Kylo's crimes that we'd just witnessed instead of calling him a monster. I'm pretty sure that would be a first for SW films anyway.... I don't recall when Luke faced Vader in ESB him listing all the things Vader had done since ANH.

Nope, that wasn't my point at all, I thought you were suggesting perhaps there was something significant about those particular children (in other words they were who he was targeting & the village was an afterthought). Wow, none of that was portrayed in the episode actually, all we know is Kylo & the FO destroyed the village and those children escaped; Phasma & Pyle then were hunting them down not Kylo. And there was no scene showing Kylo Ren's premeditation to murder everyone in the village.

Don't blame me for you bringing up Kylo's pecs! Did you find these scenes a joke as well?

Rey has seen inside Kylo's mind through the Force connection, so she sees firsthand his fear, doubts, conflict, etc. Who said anything about her calling him a monster resolving something? She calls him a monster because at that point all she sees is his monstrous actions; which makes my point that she hasn't forgotten what he'd just done to her, Finn, Han, etc.

Not sure why you're making a post about the discussion we've been having for the last few pages; but the point I was making is clearly by how Rey treats Kylo she hasn't forgotten nor is ignoring Kylo's crimes. Luke also seemed pretty upset about how his actions affected what Kylo later did to Leia. He feels guilt over failing his sister. And here we are discussing TLJ in the IX thread again.... BTW; here's how JJ ended TFA w/ Kylo:

 

Well-stated and I couldn't agree more. I feel like Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is by far the most interesting character in the ST and he certainly has the best character arc. I love Rey in TFA but TLJ ruined her for me whereas it made Ben/Kylo a much stronger character.

 

You're "pretty sure that's why Rey was so angry" but you don't know because there was no narrative emphasis. She was vaguely angry, and the only crime she brought up to Kylo was Han's patricide. All the rest was ignored by the narrative.

Luke talked about the dead students factually, but the point of the conversation was on his relationship with Kylo. The equivalent would be if in Resistance, instead of traumatized children recounting the deaths of their village and parents, the Resistance heroes simply learned of deaths that factually occurred. Narrative emphasis is made with emotion.

I don't even... what...? He was targeting the village. That's why the village was slaughtered. That is what was portrayed in the episode. It's what matters. I don't need a scene showing Kylo Ren's premeditation to know that the village slaughter was an intentional choice. We now know of three villages Kylo Ren has slaughtered: LST's, Rey's vision, and these children's. It's kind of his thing to mass murder innocent people. What a charmer.

I didn't blame you. I'm just pointing out that if you think it's absurd for me to conclude that RJ was depicting Kylo as angsty-hot, I'm going to respond with the ridiculous scene of Kylo's bare chest.

As far as those pictures, no, those weren't jokes. They were appropriate in the context of the scenes. Shirtless Kylo was out of nowhere. It was cheesy and shallow and clearly made for teenage girls to squee over. It didn't belong in a SW movie. I definitely want to emphasize that scene with Anakin and Padme. They were a married couple. Anakin was shown having nightmares about his wife, which terrified him to the dark side. That was a very adult, intimate scene, one of the few Anakin/Padme scenes that absolutely worked for me.

This was a great girl power moment. Our heroine defeated the evil monster that abducted her, tortured her, assaulted her, stalked her, and maimed her bff. Good stuff. JJ isn't the most feminist writer of all time, but he does like girl power moments.

 

I do know, that was a 'sarcastic' 'I'm pretty sure'.

You claimed the episode of Resistance showed Kylo's premeditation to destroy the village I disagreed it did; now you are claiming you don't need a scene showing his premeditation.

Wait, earlier you said;

now it sounds as if you're saying it was a joke. The shirtless Anakin scene I shared above is not from ROTS; it's from AOTC when Anakin was dreaming of his mother. So not the scene you're thinking of.

What does that have to do with your claim that JJ " ended TFA with Kylo being belligerently scary"? Oh yeah, JJ likes girl power, like when Felicity chose to stay with the guy who cheated on her and got another girl pregnant....

And yet plenty of people did. And find her relatable; as well as find her story easy to follow & accept.

 

Uh well you actually don’t know. You’re assuming. Rey never says she’s mad for any reason other than Han. She certainly never acted mad about anything else given that she befriended Kylo without his other crimes coming up.

Yeah by showing that the village massacre occurred, I already know it occurred with premidation. All that means is he intended to murder the entire village. This isn’t calculus here.

I think it’s a joke. That obviously doesn’t mean it was intended to be a joke. I think it was intended as a serious scene.

Oh my bad on Anakin. I didn’t remember him being shirtless in AotC, but I’ve definitely seen that movie less. It certainly didn’t stand out to me as something mockable though. Some guys sleep shirtless.

Kylo stalked and attacked Rey and Finn like a madman after he gutted his dad. That’s what I was referring to... obviously. Why are you bringing up Kylo’s moment of defeat? Is it to argue that he was a poor little victim there?

Do you really want to talk about Felicity now? Lol

 

Huh, what's this double standard for Rey that the other characters didn't have? When Luke confronted Vader I don't recall him bringing up Vader torturing Han & Leia, or killing all those Rebels on Hoth, or being part of the Destruction of Alderaan. And Rey was mad before she brought up Kylo's killing of Han, so what's more likely here that she's angry about all his evil acts or just the one she spells out? She only went to him once Luke refused to help her and the Resistance and had the Force vision where she saw him turning back to the light; but she did double check w/ Luke one more time before going.

Never once have argued that Kylo is a 'poor little victim', so nope.

I'm not the person who brought up that JJ likes 'girl power moments'.

What I said to an earlier post was;

It's up to individuals to decide if that works for them or not, but the story & film stands on it's own. When I said plenty of people did 'buy into it' or find Rey relatable it was in response to your comment here;

it wasn't a comment on my earlier post.
RJ did show the same compassion that JJ showed in TFA and that they've shown in the FoD shorts. It's just that some see some of the beneficiaries of her compassion as more worthy then others. Rey also had compassion and love for the parents who abandoned her, who certainly didn't deserve it.
No, I never said that finding Rey's 'compassion relatable and easy to buy into, is the entire point of her storyline in the movie'. Her point of her storyline is to realize that she doesn't need Luke, or Kylo, or her parents, or anyone else to be the hero and move forward. But then this isn't the Rey thread.
Nor did I suggest that 'those of us who did not find her compassion relatable, are the ones with the problem'. But clearly it was a problem for some as it made the film less enjoyable for them.

 

Vader was Luke’s dad. They’re entirely different stories with entirely different contexts. Luke had a very deeply personal connection to Vader. Rey’s only connections to Kylo are the crimes he has committed against her and her friends.

But this is off topic. The point is what the narrative emphasized. By Rey not being shown to care about Kylo’s crimes against her or Finn or Leia or Luke’s students, the narrative told us we shouldn’t care either. And that’s exactly what GL did with Vader. The OT narrative ignored a lot of his crimes after ANH because it was building to redemption and they wanted the audience on board. My entire point is exactly this - narrative emphasis indicates story. Absolutely that includes Resistance’s recent portrayal of Kylo as we build toward IX.

It was an honest question. I’m not sure what other point you were trying to make by showing our evil monster villain in his moment of defeat.

I brought it up because that was an example of a girl power moment. I didn’t realize that you would try to use one example from a different franchise to imply JJ doesn’t do girl power moments. I could point to many, including in Felicity, but again, I don’t really think you were trying to start that conversation.

 

These posts are getting way to long to read lol. I hope Ren looks cool and fights with his lightsaber, maybe uses force lightning.

 

My take on the whole compassion thing is different that the one some fans are using to justify Reylo. Anakin explains what Jedi compassion should be in AOTC. I could see Rey feeling compassion for the last Skywalker in the sense that he was expected to be something he ended up wasting. He had it all but screwed it all together. He wanted to be like Vader but never got there entirely, he wanted to rule but was no Palpatine, he was not able to kill his mother and complete his dark journey... In the end, that's why the Vader way is the most appropiate for Kylo, they both can end with a powerful act that at least serves the main hero to say after all the bad things Vader and Kylo did, there was a small piece of light side inside them that allowed to end it all.

And that's why the lonely end for Kylo does not sound too good to me. It serves like and excuse to have him return at some point, let alone the expectation of him having kids in his exile.

Got to love how the fans who seem to base it all in their pet theory always act like Rey Skywalker, Reylo and whatelse are theories so complex and profound the fans who do not share them simply do not understand them. Maybe, just maybe, we perfectly get them, but simply don't see them happening, or just don't like them at all.

 

JJ depicted Kylo as conflicted, volatile, impulsive, dangerous, torn, and damaged. Rian depicted Kylo as conflicted, volatile, impulsive, dangerous, torn, and damaged. The characterization was completely consistent between the two films.