ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

//ducks head into thread

When I watched TFA, it never occurred to me that the New Republic’s capital city-planet that gets destroyed was not Coruscant. I was already calling Jakku not-Tatooine, however. And wondered if the presence of snow meant the forest Kylo was in during the trailers couldn’t be Endor. I’ve never heard the names of the Maz planet or Rebellion base planet until your post right now. The ST is *astonishingly* uninterested in world-building and scene-setting, and would be even for a non-SW film.

//resumes lurking

 

Now after a year of thinking back on it, I actually hate this movie far more. On initial viewing I just felt numb and disappointed. However, one thing I was from the very start was bored. The movie didn`t feel fast-paced to me at all. I thought it really, really dragged and I checked my watch all the time.

 

I actually like it for the reasons you describe. Yes, it's painfully obvious, but I like that. I knew it was coming, I wanted it to come because he's such a joke, and I enjoyed the short set up and pay off. Simple. Here it comes. Yep, it's coming. HA! He's dead. What an idiot. Bye, Snoke. Never liked you, anyway. I do think this was intentional by RJ.

Now if we can get one of those deaths for Kylo, that would be great.

lol no Snoke was Palpatine 2.0 in TFA, that much was very clear. Rian could have turned him into something more, but he definitely already was Palpatine 2.0, we all mocked him as such long before TLJ came out.

I get what you're saying.

When it comes to watching the movie for the first time, there can be a sense of fun in actually watching it play out for the first time, even if you're pretty sure you know what's coming, or are pretty sure certain things simply aren't going to happen because they are too crazy. There's knowing, and then there's seeing. That's true of any movie, I guess, but TLJ's many "twists" and "subversions" made it seem like crazy options were possible. I've mentioned the glee at wanting Rey to choose the dark side ending in the throne room, just to get crazy silly, even though I knew it wasn't going to happen.

 

Snoke was mysterious enough in TFA that you could have made him into pretty much anything going forward. So him being nothing more than "Sheev 2.0" yeah that's all on Rian.

 

I thought RJ was going to make Snoke more interesting. I liked the spoilers of him having a white marble throne room. I liked the indications that he was swimming in opulence and looked like a weird Hugh Hefner-inspired villain. With Canto Bite, they could have made him representative of the worst of capitalism or something. That would be a very new type of villain. I think JJ started him as Sheev 2.0, and RJ had a chance to make the guy that totally destroyed our heroes something interesting and impressive. Turning him into a joke was just the worst. But in that light, yeah I can appreciate appreciating that he's dead.

 

Besides, RJ reducing the number of swipes significantly, he said while editing he found that taking longer in Canto bight and with the Holdo/Poe situation after Rey leaves the island picked up the feel of the pace of the film. Go figure. However, if you watch this movie side by side with the other six visually the pace is considerably slower than the PT or OT.

 

Yes, I agree with both of you. I walked out unhappy but not angry. It was a crazy, wild ride on first viewing, and it definitely kept me guessing. Upon repeated viewings, everything unravels and despite the defenders (who have legit opinions) this movie was a disaster for the franchise. I'm not sure it would've been possible to damage a franchise more than RJ damaged this one. RJ not only took a piss on the Mona Lisa, the reverberations wound up dooming the Solo franchise as well, which was, IMO, a great movie and should've lead to at least two more sequels. That looks like it won't happen, because TLJ left so many people unhappy they skipped Solo. As for the pace of TLJ, I remember seeing in the making of RJ telling Carrie Fisher, I'm going to actually ask you to do it "slower, less intense" as a cute little way of saying he's doing it differently than George...it made me want to vomit. Now I get to see RJ tweet out individual tweets of fans who "loved" the movie. Every single tweet always says, "I don't care what people say, I loved TLJ" or something like that. I mean, I can't remember ever seeing a director defend his film against the very fan base it was made for...it's ridiculous. Sorry, but when you have to tweet out positive reviews to prove your movie didn't suck, something went very wrong. It's as if he's defending himself by saying, hey, not everyone hated it.

 

Well, RJ’s defensive attitude sure doesn’t help but hey, nobody’s perfect.
At least he’s an accomplished director with an eye for striking visuals. I still haven’t seen any of his other films, but I might have a peek at Brick or Looper.

 

Perfection is not needed but professional bedside manner with dealing with fans who have real concerns and legitimate questions would be helpful. Also knowing how to work and incorporate the opinions of your actors like Hamill would have helped guide RJ with his characterization of Luke. Again, that is a level of professionalism I don't believe RJ has yet attained.

 

The Kylo Ren bit is the tell. I have yet to see any of these articles about how great TLJ is without some variation on how great a character Kylo Ren is.

I’m so enjoying the same commentators who’ve yelled about how it’s been X months, why are we still complaining, coming in at the anniversary to tell us again why we’re wrong. My favorite was a Twitter thread that said that TLJ is “objectively” better than Empire. Really. So I’ve been told for a year that I can’t say TLJ is objectively bad because art but it’s objectively better than Empire. I need a GIF of Han saying “I’m glad you’re here to tell us these things.”

 

I wouldn't call it ingenious, but they don't need to convince you in order to have a valid opinion on the matter. They wouldn't have needed investment in the character, only where the story was going (Snoke would be the big bad at the end of IX) in order for it to be a successful in their mind.

 

I don't even view Snoke as Palps 2.0. Other than dragging Hux across the floor while talking via hologram, there was nothing remotely scary about him. Palps in the OT had way more menace in his voice and the black robe with the hood hanging over most of his face was sinister. Even in the PT while parading around as a friend to Padme, Sheev just reeked of manipulation and shadiness. I wasn't particulary scared of Dooku or impressed by his persona as a villain but I would still take him any day over Snoke.

Anyone willing to check out other films by RJ I give props to. I have never seen Brick or Looper and don't ever intend to. After TLJ he is a director/writer that I will absolutely avoid giving my time and money to.

 

That’s not a good gauge for whether writing is a success. There was lots of speculation before TLJ about Snoke dying early. I wanted it because I liked JJ’s idea of Kylo growing as a villain in a reverse hero’s journey. I thought that sounded super cool. My investment in that story done well was in the story telling, not in whether I was subverted. Subversion isn’t good story telling in itself. It can be a piece of a good story, but if that was their only measure of success, they’re bad at their jobs.

 

It's all subjective. We aren't talking about my opinion on the matter (I didn't mind it but I wouldn't call it genius) but how the article author got to the conclusion they did. I can totally see how someone who thought snoke was going to be the big bad at the end of IX thought the moment was great. I don't believe they need to justify it beyond that. They aren't saying it's the only moment they liked - just that they really enjoyed that twist.

 

Then I guess we might be partially in agreement. To me it shows very low standards, if one defines success by whether the expectations were subverted. I mean, if Snoke removed a certain kind of a mask or disguise and was revealed to be Jar Jar Binks, that would have been a much crazier subversion, but that would not make it good storytelling or a success. Then again, I would be at least somewhat emotionally invested in that, so I might have personally preferred it over what happened.

 

Man, talk about a missed opportunity. @Darth Chiznuk

 

Spoiler

Bloodline indicates that Ben was simply never told Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker. He then has to learn about it when it is reveal to the rest of the galaxy. I can understand him being upset by this, but I cant understand that leading to an adulthood defined by murderous intent.

Regarding what it is that Vader started and Kylo intends to finish, I suspect JJ's initial intent was this would tie back to Darth Plagueis and the ability to influence the midichlorians to create life and/or prevent people from dying. Whether or not this ends up leading anywhere meaningful is anyone's guess. Following TLJ, I suspect this "mystery" will end up like all the others - it's a nothing burger.

So you're saying that we are lucky they gave us nothing, because they could have given us something? Good grief.

While I agree that TCW did a great service for the PT, there is an air of dishonesty in the way that Disney is playing the ancillary material card. TCW eventually set right some unintended wrongs (Sifo-Dyas) committed by the PT. The ST seems to want to intentionally build in wrongs (more mystery boxes than should ever be counted) so they can sell us on the ancillary material.

The worst part is, I actually liked the interrogation scene the first time I saw it. I thought she found talent she didn't know she had, and was able to peer into Kylo's mind. That, to me, played into the idea that she is "untrained, but stronger than she knows" aspect of her character. That was pretty cool to me. When I heard that she was suppose to have actually gained skill and training from Kylo and that is why she doesn't need training (quickest/easiest path of which I've ever heard), it completely ruined it for me.

I too know nobody in real life that praises TLJ. There is one co-worker who said he enjoyed it, but he probably won't ever see it again and doesn't think it was anything particularly special. Outlets like ScreenRant show their cards by protesting much too much. I honestly think if they believed the narrative they push they would have moved on by now and wouldn't feel such a need to go on an education crusade to browbeat and lecture the Internet as to how to properly enjoy a movie.

I did notice recently that Tatooine is not mentioned by name until the end of Empire. Other than that, I believe you are correct.

 

I can't speak for the author, but I don't think they just liked it because it was a crazy subversion, but because it was a subversion that worked for them.

 

I disagree with the posters conclusion. Jar Jar makes everything instantly better.

 

I can't speak for the author either, but I think that they did not even like it, and they are saying they liked it, because they are pushing a specific narrative and an agenda. I am sure that if I said that though (which I am, and I honestly believe it), you would tell me that I cannot just assume someone's else's perspective.

 

I said it's a silver lining that at least the motivation can be filled in later and isn't something ridiculous. I'd rather something that can be filled in later by someone else to something bad.

How do you know they are intentionally building in wrongs?

 

They should at least define Snoke before killing him off. There was a rumor that "the main antagonists are an older student of the Emperor, and his apprentice. The apprentice takes control of the power dynamic between the two pretty quickly…" and "Luke saves the day at the end, but in a bad way; he has changed" since March 31, 2014. Many of those bullet points were similar to or met by TFA and later TLJ whatever we think of it.

 

Tatooine is mentioned by name in TPM also.

 

Why it is that hard to believe someone else liked the movie? I 'liked' it (although I like most other SW films more). Am I under some delusion? Imagine if someone said to you that you don't really like the PT, you're just 'pushing a narrative'.

You said you were upset that the author couldn't understand another perspective and was dismissive of other opinions. Arent you doing the same?