ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

I've recently seen some close-up shots of the Praetorian's arm in the throne room battle that suggest that it's perfectly aligned with his red armor, and that's why it isn't seen, but a close-enough zoom still displays the glowing cutting edge. I can't tell for sure, but I find that more likely than them editing it out for no reason. Whether the weapon is there or not, the fact still remains that the guard is toying with her. If he had his blade, he could kill her, and even if he dropped it, he could still use that free hand as leverage to press the blade into her face or neck.

As for Anakin's style, the first time I really noticed him being distinct from everyone else was during the Geonosis arena battle. Everyone is getting ready to get killed by a barrage of gunfire and he assumes "daijodan" posture, which is basically saying, "bring it, I have zero fear of you".

 

And the fact that Obi-Wan's style had shifted focus dramatically just foreshadows their later estrangement.

 

Very interesting. I never thought about Anakin's style being a more "reckless" version of young Obi-Wan. That would definitely be true given their rivalry in AOTC.

"Besides, your senses are not as attuned, my young apprentice"
"And yours are?"
"Possibly."

Would make sense Anakin wants to 1-up Obi-Wan in skill.

Really interesting note too: I know for the ROTS videogame, they brought in Hayden who showed the developers the moves he wanted Anakin to have in-game. The developers noted how Hayden slumped his shoulders and was arrogant about blocking people to show Anakin's overconfidence in his skills. By the time of ROTS, Anakin is twirling the blade behind his back as if he's trying to let Obi-Wan know he doesn't have to look at him to strike.

 

Kylo was in a choke hold and doesn’t use the force to get his lightsaber. Funny thing is soon after he uses the force to fight Rey for the saber.

 

Because the Force is only used in the ST when the script needs a deus ex machina to further the "story".

 

I think what it's really showing us, maybe unintentionally, is just how badly the ancient forms of combat have deteriorated without constant practice and reinforcement over time. The Jedi and the Praetorian are sloppy and unrefined, because of 2 things in my mind: For the Jedi, I believe it was Luke's choice to really eschew combat in favor of a more philosophical approach to Jedi life. Call it the "Yoda" approach- the idea that Jedi should be beyond petty things like lightsabers and focusing instead on understanding the nature of the Force and working more as diplomats and teachers vs guardians/warriors. Even in TFA, in the flashback showing the fall of the temple, the one student we see being killed has no means of self defense. In fact, it seems like the group that was killed was only fighting back with staves. It seems as though Ben was the only student to even build a lightsaber, which could be seen as a big hint to his more violent nature compared to the other students- he feels naked or afraid without a weapon. However, since we assume Luke avoided teaching combat as part of his new temple, Ben had to try and learn things on his own. His natural strength in the Force probably gave him an edge, and Luke surely would have given him pointers if asked, but as we can see in the Crait 'fight', when placed up against someone who has real experience and knows what he's doing, Kylo Ren is nothing more than a blundering novice with a blade.

That takes me to the issue with the Praetorian. I believe that they were probably excellent fighters. In all likelihood, the cream of the First Order's army. What I have my suspicions about though, is that they don't seem to be particularly good with their weapons either. They're all using some really exotic and different arms vs the standard issue gear that most soldiers would train with. And given how they never get out in the field to fight with regular troops, it makes sense that they would be very rusty when confronted by 2 enemies that fight with very exotic weapons and are pumped up from being in a lot of major fighting/high stress situations in the last 48 hours. Not to mention the guy that was stronger than the lot of them put together just got bisected by his top enforcer. When you watch that scene with the idea that these guys, as threatening as they look don't actually know how to fight and are there primarily for intimidation factor, it at least becomes a bit more palatable for why the fight is so out and out bad. You've basically got a whole room full of padawans just desperately hacking away at each other hoping to get out alive.

 

I thought the duels in the PT were a bit too choreographed to look like they were dancing around. It was like the equivalent of seeing too much flashy wushu in fight scenes back in the 90s and early 2000s. Nowadays hand to hand fight scenes in film resemble more realistic MMA style fighting (boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling).

I hope in IX we see a balance between the slow lightsabre battles in the OT and the fancy ones of the PT.

Something like the Game of Thrones sword battles. Ever see those Game of Thrones videos on youtube where the swords are edited to look and sound like lightsabers? Those are awesome....especially the Mountain vs. the Viper (weilding a Darth Maul double bladed lightsaber).

 

I'm no fan of the prequels, but Duel of the Fates is my favorite lightsaber battle by far, and one of the most exciting moments of the entire saga. The lightsaber battles in the Original Trilogy are not as acrobatic, but carry a lot of weight because of their significance more than anything. There is a lot of drama going n in those confrontations. I especially like the cinematography and sets when Luke meets Vader in the carbon freeze room in The Empire Strikes Back. Then we have Attack of the Clones and Return of the Sith. Yoda's scene is too comical and I don't like any of the explanations as to why he walks so poorly any other time. All those Jedi fighting in the arena look like chopped up clips from fan films edited together. I've seen a lot of praise for Anakin vs Obi Wan, but to me it looks too choreographed. I feel like I'm watching synchronized swimming without the water. It is almost comical as well, as they are jumping on platforms above lava like a Mario Bros game. It takes me out of how emotional the scene is supposed to be. The Anakin vs Dooku scene is a pretty huge moment, and this one was executed much better.

Rey vs Kylo in the snow on Starkiller from The Force Awakens is absolutely gorgeous and impactful. The scene reminds me of Lady Snowblood and Kill Bill. The throne room scene from The Last Jedi is a lot of fun. Those guards look so cool, pr should I say they did.

I'd rank them like this:

1. Duel of the Fates
2. Luke vs Vader (TESB)
3. Rey vs Kylo (TFA)
4. Snoke's throne room (TLJ)
5. Luke vs Vader (RotJ)
6. Obi-Wan vs Vader (Star Wars)
7. Anakin vs Dooku (AotC)
8. Yoda vs Dooku (AotC)
9. Jedi arena (AotC)
10. Anakin vs Obi-Wan (RotS)

Anytime people want to swing lightsabers at other people though, I will happily watch.

 

I've never understood what that is even supposed to mean. Of course they are choreographed. That is why they look so real and like actual thousands of years old ritualistic battle. It is "dance." The deadly dance of the Lightsaber. These aren't people who are stumbling around not knowing what they are doing.

The entire point is that the combatants are seeing their opponents next move coming. They are blocking the next move before it happens. That is the dance. It all works until someone blinks and the next move isn't blocked and gets through.

Again not sure what that means as how less "fancy" are the OT duels really? Only in as much they choreography wasn't as strong because the swordsman were not as skilled (AG, DP and MH) and the duel on Bespin had a lesser skilled opponent. Between Hamill's training and Luke's abilities in the story then the duel became far fancier.

Add in more speed and opponents actually trying to kill each other then we get to the PT.

Sorry but while that would be an improvement on anything the so called "ST" has done that has nothing on anything from the PT.

Ren vs Ren is pathetic and rather embarassing that something that weak made it into a Star Wars movie. The entire concept of it makes no sense as Ren should have disarmed Rey in seconds and entirely defeated her.

Entirely disagree. Best complete package duel ever and I have no hesitance in saying it will never be topped by anything Disney is every likely to do. What they have against duels I don't know. You'd think that they'd look at what came before and want to try to top it. Instead they seemed to say to themselves "Well we can't top that so we won't even try."

Great emotion, great action, great impact of course as Anakin completes his transformation into Vader from this duel. Again no real idea what "choreographed" is supposed to mean. They are all choreographed. When badly done like Rey vs Ren with poor moves and edits it's very apparent they didn't think it out well. Most of it of course was cribbed from Anakin vs Dooku (which did it far better).

Not sure why jumping on platforms above lava on a lava planet is a problem. That's like saying jumping around different levels on Bespin is a problem or the same on the Death Star.

 

One problem with an over choreographed fight is that that it looks like the fighters know every move thereby emphasizing what it truly is: a fake, predetermined fight. However, I wouldn’t say this is bad; the PT demonstrated it can be stunning and more importantly the choice fit in context of the characters.

The ST contrastingly is less stylistic, but feels real because there is not a constant back and forth. For example, at one point Rey is running from Kylo in the fight; it feels real because she is less experienced and doesn’t know how to counter the way Obi-Wan or Anakin would. She even slashes open a tree at him; this type of desperation makes the stakes feel higher and fits in the context of the narrative.

 

That's just staging though, it has nothing to do with how choreographed the fights are.

The ST is just as choreographed as the PT, it's just that the moves are intentionally sloppy instead of intentionally slick. You can have extremely choreographed fights that nonetheless feel as though the opponents are trying to hit each other, as seen in the following:



The problem is that to pull things like that off you need actors who are actually capable stuntmen, and Hollywood isn't willing to invest in the time it takes to teach someone how to do it.

 

Honestly the entire movie could be transported into the Star Wars universe extremely easily.

 

They do know every move though. That is the point. That is the training both in the combat and the point of it being Force users. The Lightsaber duel is specifically called being part of the Jedi Arts. It is an art form.

I don't see how they are higher. Far lower because none of it really makes sense. Ren should be defeating Rey in seconds. The idea that she would last anything more than seconds against Maul doesn't work. He'd do a move that she'd never had seen or practiced nor know anything about the form or know how to defend in any way, flail out, open her entire side and he'd slice her in two within a moment.

The back and forth is the reality. You need to know how to do every move and every counter move. If you don't then you are finished.

She isn't less experienced. She has none whatsoever. Desperation leads to failure.

 

The duels of the PT represent the Jedi and Sith at the peak of their art form. They're fast, graceful and able to fence the way other people play speed chess. They're not just in the moment, but looking ahead dozens of moves and anticipating what's coming. These aren't fake fights. These are fights between highly disciplined sword masters that aren't even remotely concerned with the physical sword stroke. They're busy engaging in a battle of the minds and just letting the Force guide them physically through motions they've gone through hundreds, if not thousands of times. It's winning the battle in the mind by out maneuvering your opponent that brings your victory into reality, not just swinging away like you're hauling around an axe or a greatsword.

 

No matter how much the prequel duels can be explained with internal logic doesn't change the fact that the fight doesn't seem real to some people... I thought the Praetorian fight (occasional clumsy choreography and crap plot significance aside) had just the fast paced action that still kept the weight of the swings and clumsiness of a real fight that they should have.

 

Fights don't have to look clumsy to feel real.

 

Didn't say they did, though it certainly helps when adding that human element to it. Prequel fights had no weight to the swings which lessens the impact for me.

 

So, eh, im aware of people exciting about lightsaber duel in TROS, but i personally set my expectations bar low enough to not be disapointed. Cause what they show in the D23 teaser didnt impress me.

I mean, there are many ways to do up-down-up-down swings.

In comparison to these precise, flawless, fast swings which screams of angry master of the duel:


Rey (or Kylo for that matter) looks like she doesnt really know how to fight other than just swing lightsaber around with maximum force like its baseball bat:


Not gonna judge the whole duel equence since i didnt watch it, but these particalural couple seconds didnt make me think "Yeah, both Daisy, Adam, choreographers and fence teachers really worked their asses off to make both characters and duel itself look competent and badass".

 

The impression I get from that gif is that both of them are putting serious muscle into their moves, really trying to hurt each other. There's nothing stylized or formalized about it, just grim intent to do bodily harm.

 

Wtf is this doing in this thread in this forum? Take it to the forum for IX.

 

Yeah, my bad. Id edit it or delete but dont have the Edit button.