Lit Let's discuss Dawn of the Jedi: Into the Void. It made me sympathize with a mass shooter.

I just read this novel recently. I'm going to start by referencing the one thing I remembered about the novel's existence. It was a comment by s65horsey in the One Sentence or Less thread.

It was a pretty tempting teaser, I never forgot it, and that comment was made about 5.5 years ago. Now that I've read it, I'm not sure how well it translates to Jacen and Jaina, but it was enough to keep the novel's existence in the back of my mind for five years. I guess Jaina could have used the basic structure of DOTJ, diving into her past with Jacen while building up to their confrontation.

Warning. I'm entirely unfamiliar with the comics, I never touched them. I didn't know anything about the setting or the basic premise. It made for a bit of confusion for a couple dozen pages, but answers came well enough eventually. I was a bit confused by the lack of hyperdrive combined with traveling from one planet to another in just five days, but it didn't really matter too much, even though being bound to the system was a major part of the story's setting and premise and important to understand. Was a bit confused how a hypergate or leaving the system could be a threat, but I picked it up eventually. I had no idea what the hell a Tho Yor was, I had to Wook it. I didn't bother trying to incorporate the TYA dating system into my brain, so it didn't work for me at all, and I had no idea when anything using the TYA system was supposed to take place. I didn't put any effort into it, because I didn't want to. Just use BBY.

Right away, there's some really solid world and story building/teasing in Chapter One. I was confused because it was new to me and very different, but that's not necessarily bad. In later chapters there's a lot of planet hopping to polluted planets, and places called Sunspot and Fury's Gate, hitting seedy bars and underground fight pits, along with the unique training temples on Tython. All great worldbuilding.

Let's start with Lanoree's character building in the present. Right away, we get placed in her ship, and the ship mods, upgraded weapons, customized droid, exercise equipment, Lanoree's affinity for solitary travel, and a reveal that she had never actually had a religious epiphany (nor did she seem like she had much desire for one), all define her character pretty well, I think. This is a physical warrior. She almost sounded like a bounty hunter or soldier character, but all things considered, I believe Lebbon is describing the Je'daii Ranger archetype. It's effective. Later we find out that Lanoree once spent 200 days on her ship tracking a Special Forces cell gone mercenary, and Tre finds her ship's amenities (food, fresher, smell, lack of space) very poor. I like this. My kind of job.

Page 11 (paperback) reveals that Dalien is dead. This coming after the earlier flashback of their childhood is, again, a great plot tease. It's a good set up that draws you in. Of course, it's revealed that he's not dead just a couple pages later, but these hints of history urge one to read on.

Page 14 reveals that it is bad manners to invade another's thoughts. Interesting.

Referring to Dalien as a dreamer in the DP, and then Dalien's diary entry to start chapter one:

Made for a sympathetic start. Maybe a bit of sibling envy, or resentment, and feeling like a burden, pushed around, worn away.

There's an introduction to a certain recurring behavior in the opening chapter that makes Lanoree look like a horrible sister who repeatedly abuses her little brother.

She tried to probe his mind, he objects angrily, and it's made clear that this is an old argument that has led to physical fights, yet she continues to do it, anyway. She repeatedly violates his mind, even though she knows he doesn't like it. This is a terrible abuse. This dark tendency reveals Lanoree's and the Je'daii's darker aspects, there's a bit of Jedi speculative fiction throughout with the temptation for Jedi to read minds and abuse their powers just because they can.

But let's go back to the first epigraph, right after the title page, before chapter one:

Okay, I'm cringing at this religious arrogance. Right away, I'm turned off the Je'daii, and sympathize with Dalien. But this is just the beginning.


THE JE'DAII SUCK - and I think Lebbon agrees

There has been a lot of criticism of the PT Jedi for being too fearful, but the Je'daii are afraid of someone leaving the system. They call it a danger and a threat equally severe as a black hole swallowing the system. It made them look rather weak.

Lanoree refers to her personal involvement with Dalien being her greatest asset, even though they want Dalien stopped by any means possible. I mean, they basically want her to take no chances and kill him ASAP, so how are her personal feelings an asset to that mission? The contrast with the PT Jedi's non-attachment is obvious, and I have to say I side with the PT Jedi here.

You just don't understand the Force, Dalien. You're confused. It has to be a lack of understanding on Dalien's part, not anything else...

People thought the PT Jedi were arrogant? At least they understood that the Force/Jedi path wasn't for everyone. The PT Jedi wouldn't have wasted ten minutes of Dalien's time. This kind of arrogance is repeated about a hundred times throughout the novel, and eventually Lanoree herself sees it.

Lanoree, Dalien, the Je'daii, all receive a great deal of characterization in chapter one alone. The hints at the setting's history continues in chapter two with a mention of something called the Despot War, which is later explained. I like this hinting, it's very Star Wars, and of course Despot reminds me of Xim.

Dal's parents kinda suck. They call him weak. They know the Force isn't for him, but for some reason they send him on a dangerous Great Journey to become a Je'daii anyway, even though they know it's going to go badly. Way to guide your kid. Way to accept his differences.

The Je'daii equally suck, with their religious narrow-mindedness, thinking everyone is lost without the Force. Reminds me of Christians who think the absence of God is hell/torture. And people thought the PT Jedi were elitists?

Page 46 uses the word "b****". I don't mind, but I was pretty shocked to find that word in a Star Wars novel. A couple pages later the word "piss" shows up. Later I found out that shak = crap/****, in the central sewer under Greenwood station, which was a great, nasty location.

Master Ter'cay communicates with Dalien telepathically.

MAYBE HE HAS. He's told you this over and over, yet you still don't get it. Over and over, this novel shows Dalien's developing resentment, but he has a very legit complaint: people keep invading his mind against his will. He's not wrong, the Je'daii are, and he's their victim. To be fair, I think Lebbon is fully aware of this, and it's part of why this novel works for me. If this sort of abuse was glossed over as innocent, if the writer had no awareness of how wrong it was, it would be infuriating.

They train in the Silent Desert. Lanoree thrives. Dalien doesn't even want to try. He hates all of this. So Lanoree has a bright idea to cheer him up.

She knows he hates it, but she does it, anyway. Great idea! For some reason she doesn't understand that there's just cause behind his growing anger. She absolutely deserves his venomous gaze and more. She continually violates him, over and over, even after he's physically struck her over it. This is terrible abuse that he is powerless to stop, it's the kind of abuse that makes a person feel impotent, which can cause a person lash out. If punching someone isn't enough to get an abuser to stop, what is? She's just asking to get killed, imo. He'd even have a decent battered wife/child defense, imo.

More ignorance:

Poor Lanoree and her silent tears, scared of her brother. If your brother feels so oppressed that he'd rather risk death because at least he'd be free, this is a huge warning sign, and it's not of sociopathy. She wasn't listening, but she saved you, dummy.

Lebbon is building a school shooter here, and what I love about it is that he places a lot of responsibility on Lanoree, their parents, the Je'daii, and their society. They created him, but they were completely blind to it.

The first four chapters do a great job of making me flat out hate Lanoree and the Je'daii, though I'm not sure if that's really a great thing.

More of Lanoree being an absolutely terrible sister, right after Dalien is the only one to land a hit on Master Tave:

Couldn't let him have that one win, huh? Couldn't let him feel good. Couldn't let him have that confidence. Had to crap on his moment. Terrible. What's great is this is exactly the kind of petty thing siblings do to each other.

Dal is right about strength not only coming from the Force, but they look down on him for it and treat him like a wretched creature. He couldn't make it any more clear that the Force isn't for him, and he's always been clear about that, but no one seems to care about him being forced down a path he doesn't want.

He refuses to use the Force even while blindfolded, with plugs in his ears and nose, taking away his senses during the remote/Darrow Sphere test, but for some reason the Masters don't put a stop to his training right then and there, even though they know he's on his way to becoming a school shooter. Imagine if a Padawan continually refused to use the Force in the PT Jedi Temple, and repeatedly expressed contempt for the Force; their training would be over and they would be sent home or wherever was best. That would be a good thing. The Force isn't for everyone, and the PT Jedi wouldn't force it on anyone like that, imo. A huge difference between Anakin and Dalien is that Anakin badly wanted to be a Jedi, he just wasn't good at it. Dalien never wanted to be a Je'daii.

I just find it really ironic that the early Jedi/Je'daii are worse than the PT Jedi.

Ah, the epigraph to Chapter Nine.

I see the same ol same ol anti-Jedi sentiment exists even this early. Were they ever not arrogant jerks according to the public? Were they ever not viewed with suspicion? What's ironic is that I've never found it more fitting than in this novel. I've never, ever gone for the anti-Jedi sentiment, until DOTJ. The Je'daii deserve this. It's just...man, so much for the early Jedi being more pure or whatever. Turns out they were worse in the past. Can't say I really enjoy it.

Speaking of smug, we're back to traveling on the Great Journey...

Not using the Force? Must be a void in him. Not conforming to your expectations? Must be sad and jealous. He's jealous and holding you back! Can't be anything else. Dal is happy to find his path, but Lanoree is not happy for him.

Dal has a pretty compelling point about the Force, freedom, and the way Lanoree behaves when she uses it. I thought it was compelling, anyway.

She still pities him, even though he couldn't make it any more clear that he doesn't want what she wants for him. So he spells it out again when they meet up in Pan Deep.

It says something about his family and home when he would rather they thought him dead.

Alright, I've hit this anvil enough.

Finishing the plot, the story comes to a crappy, letdown ending. I balked at Lanoree surviving a point blank shot to the chest, and I groaned HARD at her shoving an image of a happy memory in his head (way to abuse him one last time, sis) to get the drop on him (I guess it's an interesting reminder of Jacen-Mara) before burying a blade in his skull. I guess that's the answer to a mass shooter you created, just slam a sword into his head. It's awful, but this is the character Lanoree was building up to.

In a way, I think the novel does a better job of demonstrating society's responsibility in creating monsters than the PT did. I think the Je'daii and Lanoree were far, far worse to Dalien than the PT Jedi and Obi-Wan were to Anakin. Lanoree actually eventually recognizes how unjust she had been to him. It's much clearer that the Je'daii were responsible for Dalien, though the PT was much more subtle and deeper, with far more ambiguity.

I guess it felt nice to be back in the Star Wars (Legends) galaxy again, even if the setting is completely unfamiliar and the Jedi/Je'daii are worse than ever. The unfamiliar setting may be a strength...but I can't say I think the Je'daii are. Okay, they're different, they're really dark, playing with flesh (the experiment tease was effective, I wanted to know what it was, but was a bit let down by the reveal) and decapitating people left and right, but I didn't enjoy it all that much. I especially don't care for the Je'daii notion of balance, I'm glad the Jedi as we know them abandoned that crap. It would be nice if the Jedi were actually truly great for once instead of just continually deconstructed in every era we see them.

It's too bad the plot is such a letdown in the end, because Lebbon really had a great thing going developing the past and present side by side and switching up the tense. But, really, it was pretty clear where it was going, I shouldn't have hoped for anything else.

Still, Lebbon made me strongly sympathize with a school shooter and blame everyone else for him. That's quite a feat on its own, and it was well worth the price of admission.

Questions: What do you guys think about Lanoree and Dalien? Do you agree with my view at all? What do you think of the Je'daii? Did you enjoy their darker, more arcane aspects? I got something out of it, but it wasn't very inspiring. How easy was it for you to follow the setting and premise? I usually find it very easy to jump into Star Wars novels, they usually do a good job of providing necessary background info in a timely fashion, but I thought DOTJ: ITV was a bit slow to inform and confusing because of it. What did you think of the run up to the end and the climax? Anything else you found of interest?

(btw I still think a Legends tag for Lit would be useful)

 

An interesting review, I haven't gotten around to reading DOTJ ITV yet but I will at some point.

Regarding the Jaina Jacen relationship-I don't get that at all-Jacen was always entranced by the force and the mystical-if anything Jacen and Dalien are as opposite as can be possible.

Regarding the mental violations-I suspect it's not so much in and of itself abuse as it is unwarranted and unasked for. Telepathic entrance could just as easily be used for therapy, comfort, and healing-among other things. But that isn't what's it's used for here-Dalien doesn't want to have his mind continuously violated but his sister and others do so casually without regard to his feelings on the matter. It isn't consensual essentially.

Regarding the matter of his own destiny-it's the pre republic era and interstellar travel isn't so easy. The Rakatans are also in charge(are they mentioned in the story?) and a human male alone with force sensitivity is most definitely a target for them. Perhaps his family know that if he goes out on his own-his life will be at far greater risk? If the Rakata get a hold of him-his fate will be far worse than participating in a religious organization he doesn't want to be in.

As for the PT Jedi-there is no way Dalien would have lasted past a youngling-though they had the luxury of a galactic civilization as opposed to an isolated system in the deep core. So Dalien could be sent home or wherever

I do get some similarities to young Ben-afraid to open up to the force and needing Jacen to help him embrace it. Dalien seems like someone though that never would have that warming up experience.

I think in the end though-this shows the Jed'aii and their successors the Jedi aren't perfect and have and do make mistakes. Sometimes terrible and tragic mistakes. Dalien Brock is an example of their hubris and bad judgement coming back to hurt them.

 

Into the Void take place before the Rakatans have discovered the system and are completely unknown to anybody in it.

 

Wait? The inhabitants of the system aren't aware of the Rakata? The Rakatan infinite empire as I understand it has been around at this point for ten thousand years. Or is the system that isolated?

 

You can check Wookieepedia or the old Dawn of the Jedi comics, but yes, this is really really really early in the old EU. Basically, about 36,000 years before the Battle of Yavin these mysterious ships gathered up Force-sensitives from across the galaxy then dropped them off on Tython in the Deep Core. They developed a civilization but never made it outside the system. Also enough generations had passed that a sizable non-Force sensitive population had developed too (whereas in any other era, a Force-sensitive having a non-Force sensitive kid was very rare).

I haven't read the first post through yet, and I don't remember the book in detail, but that makes for a drastically different setting than just about anything else in the old EU (about 26,000 before Yavin).

Also remember that the Rakata hyperdrive didn't simply fly from place to place like the later regular hyperdrive did, the Rakata hyperdrive traveled to worlds strong in the Force. And even then Tython was very distant and isolated. Or maybe some other species hid it, Dawn of the Jedi hinted at things but it had a really rushed conclusion, partially due to the Disney buyout. The DotJ comic itself was so-so, after their Republic and Legacy runs, the authors were kind of recycling ideas and characters and designs. Which is why the novel, by someone different, felt a bit more fresh as it took more advantage of the era's unique setting.

 

I'm generally familiar with its premise.

My point was that Dalien venturing off on his own was dangerous becuase the Rakata are like to enslave force sensitives and have enslaved humans as well.

As for other plans-it always seemed to me that the Tho Yor were a celestial plan or plot of some kind. And the creation of the Jedi order was a conscious policy-either of the celestials or some other power with an agenda.

In any case I stand corrected. It seems to me that the Jed'aii screwed up badly with this whole situation.

 

@Darth Invictus, the DOTJ comics show that the Tyrhon system has been completely (and I mean completely) isolated for 10,000 years. They only become aware of the Rakata in the comics, when they attack. This book ends shortly before the comics begin. They have had no contact beyond their solar system for 10,000 years... they don't know if there's still even sentient life elsewhere in the galaxy. They are closer to modern Earth than what we usually imagine as GFFA... a futuristic Earth with droids, gene editing, and colonies on the other planets in the Solar System... but still very much based in one system only.

 

Ah I see, so it's that level of extreme isolation from the rest of the (still forming) galactic civilization.

 

From Supernatural Encounters:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I've made my opinion on this material very very clear. Anyway that just seems like what I said but more defined and less mysterious.

 

They're at modern-Earth levels of isolation.

 

Have to disagree here, they seems to be of Firefly level of isolation

 

In any case I can certainly understand why Dalien is so resentful and angry towards his sister and the Jed'aii.

 

Good synopsis of what was sort of a weird (not bad, but weird) book, @CT-867-5309

It's been a little while since I read this, but I remember thinking the ending reminded me of two other entirely unrelated stories: Fight Club and The Golden Compass (although TBH Fight Club and the Golden Compass sounds like a pretty rad title).

For the most part I liked how Dalien was built up as a villain, by trying to protest -- and physically escape -- the power of the proto-Jedi, but the ending was super depressing and even... unsatisfactory? At the end Dalien reminded me the main character's father Lord Asriel in Golden Compass (book more than movie, because the movie was really only 2/3 of the first book anyway), where he's willing to kill even children so he can open a portal to another dimension. His main goal is to take on God, not so different from Dalien countering the Force users. The ending of DotJ: Into the Void would be like the end of the Golden Compass book if Lyra shot her father in the head before he entered the portal (and then the portal closed, so Lyra never finds out what's on the other side). There is no closure between the family members in both scenarios. Lanoree and Dalien were separated for years; there was no closure when they met again when she killed him before trying to escape the system. In a way that's almost realistic -- in real life, more often the story ends when the criminal dies. There is no closure. We can't reason with them after the fact.

Then there's Fight Club. Something about Dalien toward the end of the book reminded me of the main character in that.

Spoiler: Fight Club spoilers

He's been fighting against society's norms and what he's supposed to do in a passive-aggressive way for so long that he's gone a bit batty. He's got two different personalities by the end. But here rather than have him try to shoot himself at the end, Lanoree does it. He's built up this crazy conspiratorial cult to fight society that goes nowhere. Fight Club at least ends with "what happens now?" (although I didn't read that book, alas, in which case I could be wrong the novel ended the same). I rather liked the ambiguous ending. Killing the antagonist seems too... immediate. But again, it's more realistic.

So yeah... for some reason those two stories strongly came to mind when I read Into the Void, and wasn't so happy with the ending. Not that it was a terrible ending; it was a realistic ending (besides Lanoree's superhuman survival skillz), in that criminals usually die fast and there's no closure.

 

Speaking of the rushed conclusion of DOTJ, has TOR ever hinted at stuff from the comics or continued it? I know the DOTJ comics had crossover with the vanilla TOR (mainly Ravjivari from what I recall) but I'm curious if the TOR writers ever decided to drop hints about what happened to the DOTJ people after the comic ended.

 

Questions: What do you guys think about Lanoree and Dalien?
I don't really remember my thoughts regarding the siblings overall but here is what I wrote about them in the The JC Lit Reviews Special: DAWN OF THE JEDI: INTO THE VOID (spoilers): "Lanoree is naively self-righteous in her mission and arrogant in her abilities and control. Her inner conflict about Dalien is well made – she know that he could be endangering the whole solar system and use evil methods but he is still her brother: her brother that Lanoree feels she failed.
[...]
I am a bit disappointed in Dalien, mostly because we are shown that he was not just troubled before he disappeared but actually twisted. I lost most of my sympathy for him when he draws his gun while blindfolded on Stav Kesh. I would also like to know what he promised the Stargazer Sect members to make them so fanatic. "


Do you agree with my view at all?
Yes

What do you think of the Je'daii?
Personally I don't like them. There are two main reasons for this 1) I liked the description in the Phantom Menace novelization that the Jedi begun as a meditative introvert order that decided that they could do much more good by being a worldly one, and the Je'daii are noting like that; 2) DotJ take place long before the movies or even TotJ but the Je'daii are shown to more or less know all the standard Force powers + some more that the Jedi know and they are able to do them more or less as effortless as the Jedi. I don't like that, I would have liked to see the proto Jedi to be either less knowing in Force powers and less good at using them. If it was up to me (and the story took place after they hade become a worldly order) I would have them rather similar to the Kai-order (from the Lone Wolf solo adventure books) when it come to what they could do, maybe with some kind of "Force weapon" power.

There is also that their concept of balance feels very strange (and somewhat stupid) to me but I can see a philosophy having that concept.


Did you enjoy their darker, more arcane aspects? I got something out of it, but it wasn't very inspiring.
In a way, yes. At least as they were presented in DotJ but as said above so would I have preferred them as less militant and powerful


How easy was it for you to follow the setting and premise? I usually find it very easy to jump into Star Wars novels, they usually do a good job of providing necessary background info in a timely fashion, but I thought DOTJ: ITV was a bit slow to inform and confusing because of it.
Not that easy. When I originally read the book I did it without any foreknowledge about it beside that it took place before the creation of the Jedi and the Republic so I was rather confused about the species appearing who's homeworlds were not near each other or what I had come to understand as the area where the Jedi had begun to develop. It also took me some time to realise that there was no FTL travel and the whole story took place within a system with rather many living planets. I'm actually disappointed that DotJ did not really use any of the species that has been established as among the older spacefaring ones nor did we see any of the TotJ species.


What did you think of the run up to the end and the climax? Anything else you found of interest?
From a narrative standpoint I think it would have been more interesting if Dalien had succeeded in activating the gate, jumped through it and it had closed behind him, leaving Lanoree to wonder if he is alive out there or if the gate killed him and if they can activate the gate again or if it was just a fluke that it did not kill them all.

I would have preferred that the short story Eruption had been used as a kind of prologue instead of being placed after Into the void since it shows Lanoree in her normal mode instead of the troubled one she is in the main story. Especially since the book (as I recall) repeatedly point out that she is not herself so would it been better storytelling to first see her as she usually act.

I also have some trouble with the short time it took for Knool Tandor to mobilize for war against Greenwood Station and that Greenwood was so surprised by the attack since it was not some small force that Knool Tandor sent

And I am also surprised that there seems to be unexplored parts on some of the planets. They have been in that system for over 3000 years, why have they not excavated every ruin and mapped every catacomb by "now"?

 

Regarding the Jed'aii in a lot of ways I think they are an interesting contrast to the Jedi of the prequel era. Their ideas on the force are the same but the emphasis is on balance not the light, the Jed'aii have a sense of religious assuredness and pride in their wisdom, while the Jedi of the prequel era are more cynical and detached and are more interested in secular concerns.

 

@Darth Invictus just wondering: what do you think of the Jed'aii's idea of what balance means?

 

I remember thinking/guessing that he would just stand there and take the hits and flail away trying to hit it with some kind of melee strike, refusing to draw on the Force. That's not what a school shooter would do, though, so I should have known better. I think the teacher (Kin'ade) was wildly irresponsible and had to know what was coming. She should never have put him in such a helpless position, knowing he would not draw on the Force.

I like this idea. Proto powers for proto Jedi. More limited, like Jedi in a world where the Force had only been just discovered and the limits had not yet been pushed. Perhaps keep it limited to running and jumping, extensions of physical abilities already possessed, which seem like the most primitive superpowers to me.

Then again, by the time of ITV, the Je'daii had been on Tython for thousands of years. Using the Force was no longer new. Perhaps it would have been more interesting to see the time when it was, though. What's the point of going back to the beginning if you're not actually going to start at the beginning?

 

I feel like the eventually endgame of Dawn of the Jedi was to show the Je'daii morphing into the Jedi. The dawn of the Jedi is the twilight of the Je'daii.

 

As I understand it-it's living and acting in the narrow line in between the ashla and the bogan. A Jed'aii must never stray too far into the dark, and must never stray too far into the light but must walk the line between them. Being in balance

 

Okey but what do that mean practically?

 

It basically means living stoically and in a disciplined fashion. Acting with neither too much softness or harshness, neither having rage or being too caught up in say pacifism, it means prudence and self control.

 

I have always avoided DOTJ for this reason, it comes off so mean-spirited towards the Jedi. Like I think Daneira makes a good point about it being the twilight of the Je'daii, but from the synopsis and the zero issue (which I have read) it seems to lazily structured to make strawman bad Jedi. I get what Ostrander was doing, and he certainly does get the flaw in the equal light and dark stuff.

However I feel like the execution was more of a sledgehammer than one of finesse. Like he did that concept so well in "Darkness" and with the later Quinlan stuff. I used to like things like the Legions of Lettow, but honestly I think a lot of early Jedi order stuff takes the understandable flaws of the order present in the PT, and just makes them into monsters. Its why the PT stuff and the TOTJ/KOTOR era stuff works better in that regard. The issues with the order are done not to condemn the Jedi or to strawman and make dark siders look good, but rather to discuss the nature of the Jedi and organizational flaws that are always prone to popping up. That and even when the writer does understand, like Ostrander, it is still easy for people to mistake that as reasoning for the grey Jedi or the like. There are understandable flaws, and then there are ones created solely to fabricate grey Jedi edgelord stories.

 

Stuff like this is why I don't like Jedi origin stories inherently as a concept to do.....Keep it vague, keep the mystique, go back and tell early Jedi stories but we don't know how they came to be...Sometimes the fun is in the vagueness and allowing the imagination to wonder.