ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) in the ST

The point is that Luke felt responsible. You and others have been saying that the reason Luke runs off to hide and doesn’t do anything to help the galaxy or to bring back the fallen students is because this is the first time that Luke felt responsible for something terrible happening, and it isn’t. Luke himself said that he was going to bespin to try to rescue Han and leia because they were suffering because of him.

Luke really isn’t responsible for Kylo’s fall either. He is responsible for having a bad thought which simply caused Kylo to act sooner rather than later. The fact that kylo immediately killed half of his fellow students and turned the other half dark, proves that what Luke saw in his ill-advised reading of kylo’s mind wasn’t wrong. So, Luke was really no more responsible for Kylo going bad than he was for Han and leia being captured and tortured. But he felt responsible for both, hence why the claim that the event shown in TLJ was the first time that Luke ever felt responsible and that’s why he acted as he did is inaccurate.

Luke would not run off like a coward and hide on an island for six years. He would try to redeem those lost students, and he would help Han, leia, and the resistance. The Luke characterization in TLJ is simply unbelievable for this established character who has been known by many for two, three, and four decades. It’s simply wrong for the character.

 

I would have actually bough the characterization more if we had seen Luke try to go and redeem the Knights of Ren and encounter Snoke and Kylo, possibly killing some of his former students in the process and failing because he thought he was the great Luke Skywalker this could have come a few years after coming to the island to regroup and learn yet still failing it would have made the arc far more believable IMO while enhnacing the menace of the villains. Not saying that's what I wanted from the story it just would actually have kept Luke in character and provided what I think would be a more believable reason for him being the way he is.

There are a great many people a lot of them fans of TLJ that strongly disagree with the Saturn Award having gone to RJ. Awards are not often the best judge in terms of film quality. You can just examine the Oscars and some films that have won best picture but have been completely forgotten not long thereafter. We also have no idea how the vote went was it 49 to 51 or was it split amongst many films. With Blade Runner 2049 having come out the same year I was absolutely shocked that it didn't win the award as that film is just excellent in all aspects.

 

This is why I value discussion! A couple of you now have presented an example that’s closer to the unprecedented scenario Luke finds himself in during the ST time period and I’m glad that you have because it allows us all to zero in on what the key differences are between both and more importantly show why the state that Luke arrives to in the ST is simply the development of previously shown traits of the same type earlier. This discussion has actually inadvertently lead me to see why he comes to this conclusion as more logical than I even thought before so thank you for some of these reminders on where Luke was so worried about how his presence could have a negative impact because I had forgotten briefly how this awareness that he might be hurting more than helping grew in him over time and how someone could interpret that as something that might continue as the bad news around him persisted. Wow. That really is a big part of what gets him there, isn’t it? He’s slowly been working up to this by the end of ROTJ. Seeing the impact he’s causing others. I had actually not been as focused on that aspect of his personality as some others but it’s absolutely conceivable that notion could grow as tragedies around him grew.

His final words to Leia show a man who’s coming to realize that if his presence puts others at risk he must go. He says:

As long as I stay, I'm endangering the group and our mission here.

This selflessness of considering where what he’s doing may jeopardize others is one of the biggest reasons he becomes misguided on the value of himself and the Order. It’s the continuation and evolution of this mindset. Instead of saying what he says there he could have just as easily said this in VIII:

As long as the Jedi exist, we are endangering others with our teachings.

He’s wrong of course but thinks he’s making the same kind of sacrifice that others won’t understand. You guys nailed it! This is the final piece of the puzzle that bridges Luke’s progression from there to what he’s doing in VIII. I wish I’d seen it sooner but this is why healthy back and forth is good.

Let’s get into those differences now on guilt.

OT Luke guilt:

- Stems from knowing Vader is coming for him and not the others more than any real mistake he could have made and had serious control over.

ST

- Stems from personal shame that he let the Dark Side in again briefly that lead to his own nephew thinking he was under attack and striking out at all at the temple with weapons he provided him in the form of Force training.

OT

- There’s nothing Luke could have done to stop the Troopers from coming to his home. C3PO was purchased by his uncle regardless.

- There’s nothing Luke could have done to stop his friends from being used as pawns. He didn’t choose to be Vader’s son or for Han to go to a place where an old friend would betray him.

ST

- He chose to look into his mind.

- He allowed fear of loss to lead to anger and hate and the dark side briefly.

- He taught how to use the force and how to build weapons that were then used on innocents.

OT

- We don’t see him as visibly upset.

ST

- We can tell from his face that this was the final straw after a lifetime of uphill battle.

So, on the guilt side I’ve again yet to see a situation like what he feels after the temple.

 

Initially after seeing the movie I really tried to talk myself into if not liking at least being okay with it. I mean the Luke scenes on Ahch-To are worthless either way, especially the horrible Rey stands smugly and self-righteously over him because he couldn't even put her in her place.

But I did try with Crait, building it up inside my mind as something meaningful. This has stopped working for some time. I'm pretty convinced that Luke's general legacy has been ruined completely. And episode 9 will cement that by just making him a pointless cameo here or there. He won't even be this goofy legend that inspired the galaxy as TLJ tried to peddle. JJ is in no way beholden to this nonsense and I'm sure he'll ignore and/or retcon it. Come on, he is not gonna give Luke a legacy that counts for something.

So Luke fictional life has been a big waste of time when all is said and done. Which, after 40 years of pop culture relevance, is really sad. I have "only" been fannishly invested for close to 30 years but having that be a waste of time because of a really bad ending to the story? That bums me out probably most of all.

And it is really why the literal only option for me is to ignore the ending.

 

I see it as a new beginning for him so I’m choosing to heed Yoda’s words on that front.

“Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.”

- Yoda

I’m looking forward to seeing him with increased peace and purpose and the hope that they have some terrific colored milk.



Even though she doesn’t need help with a saber or some force abilities we’ve seen perhaps they will craft a larger force moment for her that she does struggle with in IX?

 

I hated that line, it encompassed on some level why those PT Jedi were doomed to fail. To me that line makes them sound sociopathic.

As for "new beginning", what is gonna DO as a FG that is meaningful now in terms of storytelling? That he just IS a FG couldn`t matter less to me. He is not gonna build up a Jedi Order or anything like that from the great beyond.

 

I don’t know what he will do but I can’t wait to find out.

 

Even trying to ignore the ST doesn’t work for me. I can’t unsee what I saw in TLJ: the Luke and Kylo rashomon scenes; the creature milking; the lightsaber tossing; the Luke in the mud scene after Rey defeats him; the Luke and yoda scene where Luke looks like a stupid schoolboy; the silly idea that Luke espouses that the Jedi should end and that by Luke doing nothing, everything will be fine; Luke’s gruffness and rudeness with Rey; the meaningless dodging in the force projection; Luke’s ridiculous death by using the force; all of it. Sadly, this makes it impossible for me to even watch the OT films that I used to love. They are now pointless and irrelevant, and it would be too difficult to watch the beloved heroes, Han, Luke, and Leia, knowing that their accomplishments turn to dust and their happy endings turn to misery and terrible tragedy. Star Wars isn’t happy, optimistic, magical, or fun anymore.

Edit: @Ender_and_Bean , I sincerely doubt that Luke will do much of anything. He is dead, and dead characters don’t do much except talk in Star Wars. Plus, from what I can tell, Mark Hamill didn’t seem to spend much time filming, so I am not expecting more than a couple of minutes of Luke in the next film. Since comments by Hamill didn’t give an indication that he was excited, happy, or pleased about his role in ix, that seems to be another indication that I am not going to be pleasantly surprised by Luke in ix. He likely will smile at perfect Rey, whom he had no real relationship with, at the end; and have one flashback scene, and that’s probably the extent of it.

You will likely love whatever happens, as you have thus far. I will likely not once again, which is why I won’t be seeing it.

 

I totally get that. I would prefer is someone deleted the knowledge of TLJ from my brain, too. Or I could go back in time and never see it. Would take less work to enjoy the OT then. But I still can, thankfully.

So far in the Saga, FGs haven`t really done anything anymore, per se. Give some exposition and I guess that thing with Yoda was supposed to be a pep talk. But I don`t see it fundamentally changing that they don`t really impact the action of the story anymore. Which really is the only way for a character to remain relevant in my eyes.

So unless they introduced the idea of exploring the ghost realm and that there are important battles to be fought there - kind of like Doctor Strange is covering that aspect of danger in the MCU - I don`t see that changing.

Incidentally I would prefer for Luke`s essence to be put into another body so the character can have more stories. Transport him into the far past, you can then have a different actor but have new adventures.

Never gonna happen, though.

 

The same for me, I have all the legends books, but did not read anything since the cinema desaster. I also did not watch any of the PT/OT movies since then and just switch the channel when they are run on tv. I'm now much more attached to MCU and even if some of my beloved herioes there may find an end in Endgame, I'm 100% sure they will get a satisfying last stand worth of the character.

 

The whole "Luke was partially responsible for creating Kylo" is not only a TERRIBLE way to take his character, a lazy rehash (because for all of their bragging to the contrary, the people who make the ST seem to have not one truly new or creative idea in their heads), but they don't bother to explain WHY? How are we to assume that this tragedy was so much worse than the other tragedies in Luke's life when they refuse to properly explain how it happened or give context. It's all head canon by TLJ defenders at this point.

Also I STILL don't buy that Luke's reaction would be "well I know that my murderous nephew is running around free and there's a power Dark Sider pulling the strings, well screw that. I don't have to do a freaking thing, I'll just let my nephew run around the galaxy killing people while I go chill out on some island somewhere. Who care how many people die because of his actions, not my problem anymore"

The more that I think on it, it makes Luke look not just selfish, not just callous, but a borderline terrible person. In other words NOT LUKE SKYWALKER!!

So either:

A. Luke is the biggest moron in the history of the SW galaxy.

B. He's a terrible, selfish, cowardly, callous, despicable person.

C. Both.

Yeah this is such a "grand and interesting" way to take his character, truly an "inspiring hero" here. Rian, JJ, KK, LF, you are all truly grand visionary geniuses. Ugh it makes me nauseous even to say that sarcastically.

 

Nope. I'd be sitting here saying Lucas had betrayed his own creation, frankly.

I was there. I saw it at least 10 times that summer as it stayed in the theaters week after week. "Divisive" based on a couple of reviews and letters in Starlog versus audiences in theaters and a full house when I saw ROTJ on opening day. It's a myth.

That's fine. But you missed my point - Han and Leia have a bickering "angry" relationship up to ROTJ. TFA makes us think it stayed that way and they could never be together when ROTJ is the complete opposite. That is the point I was making, not that they never fought - it's that TFA makes it as if that's all they did, the better to sell their poisonous narrative about Poor Ben and his "bad" family life. JJ going on about how he thought Han and Leia would never make it. Whereas, if we're going to go by George's wishes, as everyone seems to do for this narrative of "George thought Luke would do this!" - George also didn't break up Han and Leia.

Exactly.

Once again, you're writing the screenplay for them.

If they give us more than five minutes with Luke, I will be shocked.

Really? The villain said it? I think you mean Rian's "co-protagonist."

When Luke and Han are dead, the Jedi Order and New Republic are gone, Leia is all alone, everything they tried to accomplish is in ruins, Rey stepping over their dead bodies to claim the Falcon, saber and restarting the Jedi Order - I don't know what that is other than Kill the Past.

What I meant was Han and Leia's relationship ripped up and thrown on an ash heap - they are the only relationship in the main movies just tossed away. Oh, wait, I found one more - the friendship of Luke, Han and Leia, that drove the OT, just sundered because a bunch of overpaid screenwriters can't come up with a plot that isn't a rewrite of the OT.

If the ST's theme isn't Kill the Past then what is it? Because I sure as hell don't know.

 

@Thrawn082 , that feels gross because if he actually saw the First Order and the Knights of Ren and was like “Screw this! I’m outta here!” it would fit that completely negative and cowardly perspective.

The fact is that we need more info because what we do know from other materials is that not only was the state of the galaxy very different 6 years ago, Resistance snows it was very different even 6-8 weeks prior to TFA.

All we know right now is very limited.

Did Ben Solo awake and face questioning from people who believed he tried to kill Luke randomly and who didn’t believe his story and challenged him? Did he slaughter them in combat? Did it become him and his buds versus another clique?

What did he even know of Snoke at all at the time? He tells us in VIII he disagrees with Leia and that it wasn’t Snoke. He tells her that it was his own actions.

Does he even know where they are? Does he think it was a battle and that was the end of it? This group went off together as friends?

Did he initially go to the island for more noble internations or answers and then unpack more of what happened and come to the misguided idea after arriving that it’s better he stay away and retires not only from teaching but also anyone teaching this kind of thing again?

We deserve more info and I hope we get it.

 

Yes to all of this. 100%.
I am not saying others are wrong for viewing Luke’s situations differently. It’s just that this is where my head is at too regarding how Luke was portrayed from the OT to the ST. People argue, “That’s not what Luke from the OT would do or how he’d respond.” You are right. Guess what? He’s not Luke from the OT. When you see him in the ST he is a shell of his former self. You might not like (or accept) the how/why of it, but that’s what is presented in these films.

 

People don’t change that much for such little reason, especially when they are people who get going when things get tough, as Luke has always done. And yes, I hate that the filmmakers decided to destroy this iconic character and his personality and core traits in order to tell their lesser story with less engaging and less interesting characters. Established characters do not need to be trashed in order to introduce, develop, and raise new ones. In fact, that often backfires when beloved characters are ruined in order to make new ones seem better. AND damaging Luke beyond repair didn’t even make the new characters better and more intriguing. Instead, all of the new characters were diminished in TLJ, in addition to Luke. There were terrible characterizations all around.

 

I would go as far to say they shouldn't do anything, and that I don't want Luke to do anything in IX. I don't want this whatever that would supposedly make Luke look better. I don't want it at all, I have no interest in it. It would likely just make it worse. My biggest preference would be for Luke to not be in IX in any way, but since he apparently will be, I'd prefer it if it were a small, quiet, and dignified cameo, having nothing to do with Rey. I don't even want Rey to see him, and I don't want Luke to see her. I won't get my wish, of course, I know that.

I'm dreading whatever they've done with Luke. I think its likely that it will be embarrassing, or at best, completely lame; which, for such an iconic character, just showing up and being super lame is an embarrassment and indignity in itself.

I've heard people talking about Luke coming back to life in the flesh, but god, that would just be so awful.

I can see this going very, very badly, especially with JJ in charge. I can see it just being completely, wildly ridiculous. Total nonsense, completely out of left field and out of place in a Star Wars movie. Basically, a joke.

Maybe it could be done well with someone competent, but we don't have someone competent. As CoW said, if this had happened, I think we would have heard something about it from Mark Hamill, good or bad.

This is all exactly the kind of embarrassment that Mark Hamill was worried about.

 

Yeah Luke's utter lack of sadness of compassion for his other murdered students, and being so cold when talking about Obi Wan, and throwing him under the bus basically, also feel super-OOC for him.

The problem I have with the "wait and see" stuff is:

1. Luke is DEAD, so there's no chance for him to fix his own mess now. So explaining said mess, means very little at this point.

2. People kept saying after TFA "well wait until Episode VIII, they'll explain things better." And then TLJ, didn't. Now it's "well wait until Episode IX, they'll explain it better." And if that doesn't happen, it'll be "well wait until the comics, TV show, whatever, they'll totally explain it there." Are people supposed to have unlimited patience, to give LF unlimited time and chances to explain crap? Still trust them even after being burned repeatedly in the past?

Trust has to be EARNED, and LF sure hasn't earned it for many people. And their responses/attitude towards any kind of criticism/critiques sure as heck don't make many optimistic either.

 

Is it "such a little reason"?
The ST says it's massive to Luke.
Luke views himself as responsible for the fall of Ben Solo, the death of Luke' students, and the breakup of his family (Han/Leia, etc.) Again, is this a little reason? As has been posited many times: This is the worst thing Luke Skywalker ever had to go through. You may disagree, but there is no evidence in the OT or ST to suggest otherwise.

Yes, it is weak (and to the detriment of the ST) that it is mostly shown off screen and with flashbacks. It may not do it for you, but that is the story being told (successfully executed or not).

 

I don`t think anyone is seriously debating that this is the story being told. It obviously is. But that has no bearing on if it`s working for the individual viewer or not. I think TLJ is a badly written script and not just for Luke. It just so happens his character gets the worst trashing in the Saga.

 

Well you've just acknowledged the problem. The ST doesn't actually tell a story about Luke's failure and depression, it just claims that the story exists and then hopes that fans will make it up for themselves. The problem is that many of us have highers standards for Star Wars than that.

 

In terms of what actually happened it may not be "such little reason" But the amount of time it's given in the story by the film makers do make it come off as such little reason as it's dealt with in the same way as many other struggles in the OT and shown as bump in the road. Luke never once talks about what the event did to him never once express guilt over breaking up Han and Leia and we know nothing about his other students. It was RJ's job to convey what these people meant to him and how responsible he felt. Besides feeling responsible for his action in the Hutt I get very little sense as to how Luke feels about the rest of the incident. Luke has suffered things that can be argued to be just as traumatic and he didn't give up this time he just gave up....

It is completely debatable as to if the Temple event is the worst thing that has ever happened to Luke it's definitely not strictly depicted as such in the films due to how little information we get on the event besides the Luke and Kylo of it all. Your completely entitled to view it that way though. I won't do the work for the writers.

The point that everyone here makes but I have yet to really see recognized is that we do accept that it's very traumatic what happened to him, many accept that it would take him years to recover. TFA implies that he went on a quest of recovery and self discovery instead he is hiding out waiting to die..... Those that have the biggest issue with Luke's story here over the past few days have not once said over he should have just gotten back up the next day and dealt with it. Everyone accepts him going to the first Jedi Temple for his own reasons the reasons presented in the film which are to hide out and die based on the character we got in the OT in the opinion of many is ludicrous heck it's even ludicrous to Mark Hamill who says yes Jedi go away they regroup but they don't just give up.

People don't like Luke ending up on the island in TFA but I have yet to see arguments where people are vehemently against him going there and staying there for a long time. People reject the reason that he is still there and what he has been doing there.

You admit that it's week and that the story being told may be being executed badly we should just accept it. That doesn't make sense as that just leads us down the path to even worse stories in the future.

 

Didn't you know? If TLJ defenders don't write at least one thousand words a day about how its critics don't exist then they won't be admitted into Rian Johnson's sarcophagus.