CT Why does Sidious TELL Vader that Luke is his son?

This also does not work, if Luke looses then he has shown himself to be weak and Palpatine would order that he be killed.
The logic is very simple, he keeps the winner and kills the looser.
That is what happened with Dooku and what would happen now.

Well in the original version of ESB, Sidious first impulse was to want Luke dead.
Vader was able to convince him otherwise. With no rule of two, then Luke could be brought along and be a third member of their group, below Vader and Sidious but still a powerful ally.
Vader then tried to get Luke to join him and saying that they can get rid of the emperor and rule as father and son.
Either Vader was just lying and he had no such plans. Or he only got that idea after Sidious said that Luke could destroy them and now he sees a chance. Or Vader had that plan all along.
In RotJ, Vader has seemingly lost any goal to get rid of Sidious and is the obedient servant.
And now Sidious is keen to replace Vader with Luke.
One possibility is that Sidous found out what Vader said to Luke and realizes that Vader is getting too ambitious and so he want him gone for that reason. And thus he reasserted his hold over Vader and keeps him close and not letting him leave to find Luke on his own.
Or Sidious wants Luke because he is younger and has his whole body, while Vader does not.
Or Sidous has no preference either way, he will simply get them to fight and keep the winner and discard the looser.

As for Dooku and what Vader knows, once Palpatine reveals himself as the other Sith he knows that he was Dooku's master and the whole kidnap and fight was all staged. Palpatine planned the whole thing and the goal was to pit Dooku vs Anakin and keep the winner. Vader is also very aware that Palpatine talked a lot about his potential and how strong he could be. He talks about Luke having great power as well.
So not hard for Vader to figure out what will happen.

Sidious killed his master when he slept, so he took advantage when his masters defenses were down.
He didn't challenge him directly.
Anakin's turn in the PT is very different from Luke's in the OT. Anakin joins willingly as Palpatine offers something that he wants. With Luke he offers him nothing except slavery.
So his plan makes no sense unless he could somehow "control" Luke after he turned.
As for Luke and Vader, if Luke is turned by Vader then Sidious has no control over him and if he is forced to focus his power to keep Vader under control then Luke could kill him. So he could not keep both Luke and Vader under control.

[/QUOTE]

But this makes Sidious in RotJ into a total idiot and his plan makes no sense and the OT came first so it was up to the PT to be consistent with it. The OT makes it pretty clear that killing once in hate is enough to turn someone. Anakin is able to kill multiple times in hate and not turn.
Anakin's turns because he gets something he wants, or so he thinks. Anakin is more then a little gullible there. But he willingly joins. With Luke it was never about having him willingly join, it was about turning him regardless of what Luke wanted.
And Luke said "You wont turn me as you did my father." Implying that Vader did not turn willingly either.

No Vader said that, not Sidious.
Vader in both ESB and RotJ is trying to sweeten the deal, in ESB he offered Luke a chance to rule and to end the conflict. In RotJ he offers to save Luke's friends.
How Vader could know that they were not dead by now is another matter. And his offer has to get an ok from Sidious first and he was all about letting Luke's friends all die and letting him suffer.
But Vader is trying to get Luke to join willingly, Sidous does not need to.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

When Anakin kills the Tuskens, that puts him on the path towards the dark side. There was no turning back for Anakin, just going forward. Even without turning then and there, he was destined to be Vader at that point. That is what Sidious is referring to and Yoda doesn't dispute that either.

YODA: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

At the point that he finally turns, Anakin makes the choice to be Vader. So it goes with Luke as well.

Anakin kept refusing to be a Sith until he was left with what he felt was no other option. So it would be with Luke. Palpatine kept goading both of them into embracing the dark side, with the promise of power and knowledge that the Jedi path would not offer.

 

Really? I think the opening of ROTS was supposed to be a "point of no return" in that sense. Anakin could have refused to kill Dooku and insisted on taking him prisoner to be tried by the Senate. The whole point of the scene is to contrast it with Luke's refusal to kill his father in ROTJ.

 

There is a difference between current power and potential power. Luke was young and had only one prosthetic limb, so he plenty of room for growth.

My understanding of Sidious's personality is a lot more decisive than that. He's not going to sit back, watch a fight, and take *whoever* ends up willing. He knows who he wants and who he doesn't want. He can see their potential.
The purpose of the Anakin vs. Dooku fight in ROTS was not to see who wins. It was to get Anakin, who was stuck fighting in the Outer Rim at the time, to come back to Coruscant so he can convert him. This is Sidious's worried look when they start fighting:

And when Obi Wan gets knocked unconscious, he frowns and then looks toward Anakin:

If his goal was just to watch a duel between Dooku and Anakin, then having Obi Wan out of the picture should be a good thing. But his facial expression tells me that he is worried about Anakin's safety. He was betting on Anakin and Obi Wan together being able to defeat Dooku, but with Obi Wan knocked out, the chances are slim.
When Anakin arrives back in Coruscant after the fight and reunites with Padme, he says, "It feels like we've been apart for a lifetime. And it might have been, if the chancellor hadn't been kidnapped." When Vader later thinks back to that fight, this should come to mind.

I agree that there seems to be a discrepancy between the OT and PT regarding how people turn to the dark side. But the first 6 movies are all canon, so I try to find an explanation that can cover everything. Sidious's body was clearly getting old in the OT, he needed a cane to walk now. So I wouldn't say it's too too far fetched to say his brain might have been deteriorating also. Neither Yoda, Obi Wan, nor Luke know the details of how Anakin turned to the dark side. But we know from ROTS that it was a conscious decision to surrender to Sidious, not accidentally turning to the dark side and getting stuck after one outburst of anger.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm going to list out all the conditions of the command power you suggested. Please let me know if I missed or misunderstood anything. Let's call the person controlling others with this power the "User," and the person being controlled the "Subject."
1. This is a purely dark side technique. Both the User and the Subject must be dark side force users for the technique to work.
2. It takes constant energy to function. The User can't just turn it to "on" mode and keep it on during sleep etc.
3. It takes focus. One User can not use this technique on two Subjects simultaneously.

If we ignore the PT and look only at the OT, it appears that the condition for turning to the dark side is killing once in hate. So that's two things, hate and killing, and not just randomly; the latter has to be the result of the former.

With the above conditions, I still can't make sense out of what Sidious was doing even if he did have the command power. This technique only works after the Subject has already turned to the dark side right? So Luke had to kill Vader before Sidious can use it on him. But by telling him to kill Vader to take his place, Sidious disrupted Luke's flow of anger. He brought him out of his blind rage back to reality. And even if Luke stayed angry, well, by speaking up and saying something so mean, Luke's anger toward Vader would transfer to Sidious (Luke might even feel more compassion for Vader now after seeing how Sidious treats Vader), but obviously Sidious isn't going to allow himself to get killed by Luke. So... how is Luke supposed to turn to the dark side?

For ROTJ you're talking about this line right? "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends." I didn't interpret it as a "We'll make a deal with you, join us and we'll spare your friends" kind of thing, but more like "Use your anger and you will have the power to defeat us and save your friends." But of course, even if Luke does use his anger, he still won't be able to defeat Sidious. So it's a false promise.

 

I see these two scenarios getting compared a lot, but I really don't see how they parallel one another. For Anakin, Palpatine was a mentor and friend, while Dooku was the monster behind the war. He had reason to trust Palpatine and hate Dooku. But for Luke, Sidious was the number one evil in the galaxy, while Vader was clearly just Sidious's puppet. In addition, Vader was also his father, and it's clear that Luke has compassion for him. Why would Luke listen to Sidious and kill Vader?

 

I honestly don't see any causality between killing the Tuskens and chopping off Windu's arm in hopes of saving Padme. The loss of his mother yes, but not the killing of the Tuskens.

He offered Anakin the power to save Padme.
He said to Luke that he will become his "servant" (yes, that is the term he used).

 

I see Sidious as very utilitarian and he is a "user" in that he uses people as long as they are of some value to him. If they cease being of value or if something better comes along, he will have no problem discarding anyone or anything.

Interesting idea but it does not work.
If Obi-Wan was awake and conscious when Anakin had Dooku at his mercy, would Palpatine say what he did? Tell Anakin to murder Dooku?
I very much doubt it. That would a) reveal himself as a villain to Obi-Wan and b) Obi-Wan would also tell Anakin no, don't do it.
So no, Palpatine's plan HINGE on Obi-Wan either not being present in the fight or being knocked out or killed during it.

Also, Anakin has to fly through a rather big fight in order to get to the ship. What if his ship was blown up before he could land? Anakin would be dead and Palpatine would have to keep Dooku.
Or if some Jedi came from Coruscant to free him?
Or what if the ship got shot at, which it was, and blown up. Then Dooku, Palpatine, Griev and Anakin would all be dead and the Force would be balanced.
To me, Palpatine's "plan" at the start of RotS makes very little sense as it has way too many random variables involved and only works if Palpatine had read the script.

But I think Palpatine was testing Anakin, if he got killed during the war or at Geonosis etc then he would keep Dooku as Anakin was not strong enough. Same if Anakin lost to Dooku or if Anakin proved himself unsuitable like not buying what Palpatine was selling.
He does not really need Anakin and would not hesitate to discard him.

He is interested yes and he is grooming and testing Anakin but if Anakin failed then kill him and keep Dooku until someone else interesting comes along.

I see the same with Luke, he wants to pit Luke vs Vader, if Luke is strong enough to beat Vader then have Vader killed and keep Luke.
If Luke looses then he is weak or he does not turn then he is unsuitable and so kill him.

But again the OT came first and the OT very much imply that Yoda and Obi-Wan knew how Anakin turned.
In ESB Obi-Wan said "I don't want to loose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."
And in RotJ Yoda said: "Luke...Luke...Do not...Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor,
or suffer your father's fate,"

And making Sidious into a total idiot weakens RotJ and it also does not work combined with the plan he had to lure the rebels to the DS2 to destroy them. If Sidous is an idiot, how did he come up with this plan, which makes far better sense than his RotS plan.

My reasoning for this "command" power is based on three major things.
1. What Yoda said in RotJ, see above. He warned Luke about some power the emperor had. It is very likely that Vader did not have this power.
So what was it? Force lightning? Well that is a special power but how would that cause Vader to turn? That is what Yoda said, that Luke would suffer his fathers fate, ie turning, if he didn't beware this power.
2. What Vader said on Endor, that Luke does not know the POWER of the Dark Side and that he MUST obey his Master. Plus Vader's whole presentation during that scene is one of regret. That he does not want to do this but he feels he has no choice, that he must do what he told to do.
3. As I've said, Sidious plan makes zero sense if he could not "control" Luke in some way after he turned.

The way I see this working is this;
Luke let his hate take over and uses the Dark side to murder Vader.
So hate and the dark side is flowing through his body.
Sidious, being a Master of the Dark Side, can use that hate and the dark side in Luke to bend him to his will.
If Luke gets angry and tried to fight it using more of the dark side, then he looses even quicker.
So before Luke gives in to his hate and lets the dark side flow through him enough to murder, then Sidious has nothing to use against Luke.
And Vader, when he let go of his hate and stopped using the dark side, again Sidious no longer had a hold over him and could not command him any longer.
And if Vader would ever get stronger in the dark side than Sidious, again the command power is of no use as Vader is now the stronger of the two.

Sidious killed is master while he slept, to me that implied that Sidious was not stronger yet but took advantage of his master having his guard down.
In ESB Vader is far away from Sidious so this power is weaker or not present. And if he turned Luke and both came at Sidious then Sidious is not strong enough to bend two of them together to his will.

Finally, in the first draft of ESB, a concept like this is present.
Vader is fighting Luke and he is letting Luke the dark side against him, knowing that Luke would eventually loose if he kept this up.
That if Luke use enough of the dark side, Vader would eventually use that to beat him.

and;

[/QUOTE]

But how would this work? Even IF we assume that Luke could kill both Vader and Palpatine, how would that stop the fighting?
If Luke used the comm on the Emperor's chair and called Piett or the DS guy, why would either obey his orders?
Palpatine is goading Luke to get boiling mad and attack and try to kill him. Not for any hope that doing so would stop the slaughter of the rebel fleet or the death of his friends on Endor. It was just trying to get a primal reaction.
Get Luke angry enough that he kills out of hate and vengeance.
Because doing so will make him Palpatine's slave.
Vader, like in ESB, is trying to sweeten the deal, that if Luke gives himself to them and the dark side, they could order a stop to the fighting and Luke's friends would be spared.

EDIT; missed this;

This is another reason why I think some other power is involved. As you said, Luke would hate Sidious and Sidious has nothing Luke wants. And yet had he killed Vader, he would become Sidious servant.
Why would Luke willingly join Sidious? He wouldn't.
So there is something more here.
In closing, if we go with my command power idea, then Sidious is trying it on Luke right there. Luke has let his hate flow and used the power of the dark side. Enough for Sidious to use and get him to obey his orders. But Luke does not fighting it with hate, he lets go of his hate and finds peace instead. And now Sidious can't command him.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

True, but the pathway began in AOTC where he just lashed out in anger and hate. With Dooku, he stops just as Luke does. The similarity there is making the choice to willingly kill versus an act of spontaneity.

Uh, no.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to set up a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

"Palpatine rather hoped that Anakin was going to leave Obi-Wan during the kidnapping, but Anakin is an honorable man and Obi-Wan is his greatest friend, so Anakin insists that he bring him along."

--Ian McDiarmid, Star Wars Insider #82.

Because both are acts of selfishness and evil, committed by a person willing to let his emotions dictate the decisions that he makes. Both are spur of the moment emotional reactions.

Palpatine tells Luke that he will complete his training and that his hatred makes him powerful.

 

But then Anakin decides to kill Dooku anyway, whereas Luke refuses to kill Vader. The choices they make are different. I'd say that's a vital part of their respective journeys.

 

I didn't say otherwise.

 

Even if Luke isn't as powerful as Vader quite yet, he can still be of great value in the future due to his potential.
And Vader would still have some value to Sidious even if he gets Luke. It's just up to him to decide if the value is worth the potential harm.

If Obi Wan was awake and conscious when Dooku gets defeated, Dooku would be taken prisoner and handed over to the senate. Sidious is the chancellor, I'm sure he can figure out a way to make Dooku die without revealing himself. Getting Anakin to kill Dooku out of hatred wasn't the purpose of the plan, it just so happened that there was an opportunity for that and Sidious took advantage of it.

I agree that Sidious seemed to be taking huge risks there. My guess is that it was some combination of foreseeing certain parts of it, trusting that Anakin can handle the situation, and deciding that it was worth the risk. If another Jedi came and Dooku wasn't able to defeat that Jedi, Sidious can kill him/her. The Council would assume that Dooku did the killing send more people, and Anakin might be one of them this time. If not, well, Sidious can always make another plan.
Grievous likely released the escape pods confident that the ship would last until it landed. As soon as Grievous landed in Utapau, he made immediate contact with Sidious, fully aware that Sidious was alive and well. And Sidious didn't look worried when Anakin was flying the ship, even after it broke in two. So I'm guessing Sidious told Grievous something like this: "In the unlikely event that Dooku gets killed by the Jedi, this is what you do..."

That's why I said intermittent dementia. Maybe he was in his non-demented state when he was initially making the plan. Maybe he originally had something much more intricate in mind (Like... I dunno... maybe tell Luke that he would spare one or two of his best friends if he helps him do this one little thing, but then he makes some of the rebels, perhaps not Leia or Han but some other rebels, think that Luke is on the Empire's side now so they attack Luke, and then... I'm too lazy to work out the rest but you get the general idea), but when executing his plan he got into his demented state and changed things.
Or maybe the dementia wasn't intermittent. Maybe his brain would have deteriorated many years ago from old age, but he prevented that from happening using the force to sustain his brain health. But when a light side force user (Luke) got into his proximity, his force field got messed up so his brain rapidly deteriorated.

I don't think those two quotes necessarily imply that Yoda and Obi Wan knew the details of how exactly Anakin turned. They knew it was because of Sidious, and they somehow figured that Anakin didn't want to turn. Which doesn't contradict ROTS, it was a conscious decision yes but he didn't happily run to Sidious.
When they talk about the power, it doesn't have to be a specific technique, it could just be overwhelmingly superior fighting power overall. That it would mean certain death to resist, so Vader believes that there is no point trying.
If Yoda and Obi Wan were aware of the existence of a command power, I think they would have been more explicit when telling Luke about it.

But this still would only work after Luke had already killed Vader. But why would he do that in the first place if Sidious just disrupted his flow of anger by saying, "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny... and take your father's place at my side!"? Luke would either control his emotions (as he did in the actual movie) or turn around to fight Sidious (which wouldn't turn him either because Sidious wouldn't let himself get killed by Luke). If Sidious did have the command power, it would make so much more sense if he stayed quiet and made Vader say something to enrage Luke enough to kill him. No matter which way I think of it, Sidious's actions still don't make sense to me.

Vader was far from Sidious at the time he suggested the plot to Luke, but for the plot to actually work, they would have to confront Sidious face to face. Sidious doesn't need to command both of them; he can simply command Vader to fight Luke, like what you suggested was happening in ROTJ. It seems like with the existence of the command power, Vader had to be lying when he suggested the plot to Luke. Which, in turn, would mean that saving Luke's life was the sole purpose of Vader's suggestion to Sidious (that they convert Luke).
However, you also believe that Vader thinks that there is no way Sidious would have two apprentices simultaneously. In that case, by suggesting to Sidious that they convert Luke, Vader would already be sacrificing himself to save Luke. My understanding is that this would mean turning to the light side? So the command power should no longer work on him.
If my above reasoning is correct, then it seems like regardless of whether we go by the command power hypothesis or the intermittent dementia hypothesis, Vader had to be hoping that Sidious would have two apprentices simultaneously.

It would be a coup. Luke could walk into the DS control room with a lightsaber in one hand and the emperor's head in the other and scare the bejeezus out of everyone. I think they would surrender.
Like you said earlier, Vader can't sweeten the deal on his own without Sidious's approval, and it looks like Sidious wants Luke's friends to all die. By the other interpretation of Vader's line, the two of them are working synergistically: Sidious is making Luke angry, and Vader is telling Luke to use that anger. In ESB Vader said something similar to this: "Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

 

I wonder if Lucas changed his mind at some point during the production process then, because that quote doesn't seem to match what I see in the end product.
McDiarmid's quote doesn't contradict what I'm saying though. With Dooku dead, Obi Wan is nothing but trouble for Sidious.

So it would be the selfish nature that causes both. The killing of the Tuskens is just an indicator of the selfishness, not the cause of his turn.

Powerful enough to become his servant. That's not very tempting.
Imagine if during Sidious's fight with Windu, instead of "I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose. Don't let him kill me!", Sidious says, "Once I become Emperor, I will make you the second most powerful man in the galaxy. Now, kill him!" I don't think Anakin would turn.

 

The novelization has some dialogue from Dooku that indicates Palpatine genuinely misled him about them trying to convert Anakin together. Christopher Lee's facial expressions in the film arguably convey this too.

 

I think Dooku is a fool to believe that. For him to think that Palpatine would save him if he loses the duel, how could he actually believe that?

 

"There was no turning back for Anakin, just going forward."

If what you say is true, then Anakin could never have turned back in ROTJ.

As deep as Vader was into the Dark Side, it was never a whole-hearted choice like Palpatine, Maul, or Dooku. The Dark Side was always a means to an end for Vader: Saving his wife, bringing order to the galaxy, keeping himself alive. In this manner, Palpatine tricked himself into become a slave to the Dark Side, dependent on it for everything, and willing to do everything to protect it because of his fear of losing everything important to him. What he didn't realize until it was too late was that he ended up sacrificing everything that made him "human" for the Dark Side. This is why Luke was a "threat" to him - Luke had the potential to make Anakin realize his mistakes, and see the Dark Side for what it really was - a ball and chain, shackling him to Palpatine, making Vader his puppet. It wasn't until Vader was willing to make an informed, conscious choice to sacrifice himself for another that he truly understood what being a Jedi was all about.

This was the "conflict" Luke sensed in Vader....Vader refused to acknowledge what he feared deep in the back of his mind - that his choices were wrong. Palpatine, on the other hand, had no regrets.

George Lucas, "Chosen One" Documentary

"I like the idea that the person you thought was the villain was really the victim. The story is really about the villain trying to regain his humanity. It's really the story of Darth Vader's redemption."

There's always this good in you. The good part is saying, "What am I doing?"] and the bad part is "I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for us, it'll be better for the universe, it'll be better for everybody." But there's always this little part of you saying, "What am I doing?"

Nobody who is evil thinks of themself as evil. They always believe they are doing good, even when they are not.

It happens once the Emperor starts to work on him and he makes him doubt things. Makes him doubt his relationship with the Jedi. Makes him doubt what is good in the universe. He throws out the possibility that he can keep his wife and save her from death. These are all seduction things, which causes a great deal of turmoil in Anakin. This is where he actually succombs to the influence of the Devil.

The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the force by destroying the sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader DOES become the hero. Darth Vader DOES destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it, because he is redeemed by his son.

Everybody thought that Darth Vader was this big, evil guy that had no heart, that he was just evil, but in the end, he's not that at all. Here's a guy who has lost everything.



From the ROTJ Novelization:

"Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits.
They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful—and no one was infallible with its use.
It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son
were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker—but, in
addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a
buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this
matter are clear, Lord Vader."
"They are clear, my master." He knew his son's presence, it galled him and
fueled him and lured him and howled in a voice of its own.
"Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for him," Emperor Palpatine
said simply. As long as things were clear, things were clear.
"He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
felt drawn.
"Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free
will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be
seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew
these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be
read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always
been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate
vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will
then bring him before me."
Vader bowed low. "As you wish."

 

Again, Sidious is in no need for more help, he has a lot of power behind him.
He pits Vader against Luke and whoever wins he keeps and the looser dies.

But how does this help Sidious?
If Anakin and Obi-Wan together beat Dooku and Dooku is taken captive.
Anakin has not used the dark side, nor has he murdered. And Sidious now has lost his apprentice.
Sure he can likely kill Dooku but again why?
No this plan makes no sense and Sidious has nothing to gain from this.

So I totally believe that the murder of Dooku was always part of the plan for Sidous.
If Anakin was strong enough to beat Dooku then get him to murder Dooku. I think Sidious figured that this would turn him right there. If Anakin lost, well that raises questions, like how would Sidious/Palpatine get back to Coruscant?
But Anakin did win and did murder Dooku but somehow did not turn and further did not abandon Obi-Wan so now Sidious has to switch to plan B, get Anakin to turn willingly.

I didn't get the impression that Griev knew that Palpatine was Sidious, he took considerable risks with his life. Like breaking the window to the bridge when Anakin, Obi-Wan and Palpatine was there. That migth have killed Palpatine.
And if he was concerned with not letting him die, keep the escape pods and figure that they woudl use one and get out alive.
No, Griev was trying to kill all of them.

About foresight, that becomes iffy to me with regards to consistency.
Can Sidious always foresee things with such certainty?
If yes, did he foresee that Padme would come to Coruscant in TPM?
If he did then he gave orders he knew would fail.
If he did not foresee that then he knows that things can happen that he could not see in which case he takes foolish risks for no reason. He could get Dooku to fight Anakin in any number of other ways that involves less risk to him and less random variables.

Nothing about Sidious in ESB or RotJ implies dementia in any way.
Overconfidence yes and underestimating Luke's strength of will, the power of love and compassion yes.
Gross stupidity, no.

They didn't tell Luke about Sidious Force lightning either, or that it could be stopped by a lightsabre.
So their teachings had some holes in it.
Anakin did join willingly, he was not happy about it but it was totally his choice.
He turned to get something he wanted.
Sidious has nothing Luke wants, except maybe to die.
That Anakin turned to save his own life does not work. Luke was put in that position in ESB and he choose death over turning. So he had passed that test.

Sidious is overconfident, Luke says as much.
And this is not the first time Sidious has done this. Earlier in the fight, Luke gets a bit angry and kicks Vader down the stairs. Sidious gloats about that and Luke calms down and backs down a bit.
Sidious thinks there is no way Luke could not turn and so he sees no danger in interrupting and he likes to gloat, that is pretty well established in his character.

Unless it would take Sidious say ten seconds of total concentration to control Vader, during which time neither he nor Vader can do anything else. So he is then totally exposed to Luke who could kill him.
Or Vader, if he turns Luke and trains with him for a while, that they could fight together in some way.

In the OT, when it was made, there was no rule of two so when Vader suggested turning Luke, there was nothing that prevented three Siths. In my opinion.
So Vader had that as a possibility, turn Luke and both of them serves Sidious.
When Vader fights Luke, he tests him to see how strong he really is and at the end he sees that Luke is actually strong enough to be of use in deposing Sidious, And Sidious had said that Luke could destroy them, so it is possible that this planted the idea in Vaders head.
Had Luke been beaten easily then Vader would know that he can't use him to overthrow Sidious and also that Sidious won't replace him with Luke as Luke is not strong enough to fill Vader's shoes.
So on Bespin, seeing that Luke is strong enough to be of use, with some additional training. Vader makes his offer. But Luke does not go for it and this shakes Vader. He begins to doubt and to question his own choices.

So in RotJ, Sidious has reasserted his hold over him and his heart is not really in this anymore.
He is thinking back on his choices and he sees that he is a slave and he made mistakes and he is not happy about where he finds himself.
He realizes how this will go down, either Luke refuses to turn in which case vader will be forced to kill him. Or Luke will get angry, there will be a fight and if Luke turns this might make him strong enough to beat and kill Vader.
Either way, Vader has little to gain here.

[/QUOTE]

First, the DS 2 is HUGE and Luke would not know where the control room is and he does not have time to run around looking for it or even asking people. His friends are dying right now. In a few minutes they could be all dead. Plus he can not fight all of the soldiers there.
Second, in ESB Vader first tried to get Luke angry, that he would use his hate against him.
However that didn't work and so he switched to a sweeter deal, they would rule together, end the conflict in the galaxy and Luke would live.
So why would Vader fall back to a method that didn't work, plus if Luke goes for it and gets angry and kills Vader, how does that benefit him? Unless we go with the command power and he is just saying this because Palpatine told him. And he knows that getting Luke angry equals his own death.
So I think that Vader is using the tactic from ESB, getting Luke to willingly join. That way he might have some time before Luke kills him.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Not quite to the extent he claims, but here not going to admit that in front of anyone unless he absolutely has to. He's good at it, no doubt about it, but he didn't foresee Luke coming to Endor, nor Vader killing him. My earlier quote from the novelization talks about this.

"Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits.
They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful—and no one was infallible with its use.
It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son
were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker—but, in
addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a
buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this
matter are clear, Lord Vader.

Destinies could never be read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it.

 

But this brings the question back, if he knows that his foresight is not this super-totally exact and never fails, then he is taking considerable risks at the start of RotS plus his "plan" relies on a lot of random variables.
Would Anakin get back in time, what happens if he gets killed reaching the ship, what if another Jedi tries a rescue, what if Obi-Wan wasn't knocked out, what if the ship gets shot at.

Or take AotC, did Palpatine "plan" for Zam to fail to kill Padme both times, that Jango would shoot her with the dart, that Obi-Wan knew someone that could ID it, that Jango would try to kill Obi-Wan but fail, that Obi-Wan would be able to track Jango to Geonosis and so on.
I have seen people argue that everything that happened in AotC was planned/foreseen by Palpatine.

In RotJ his plan makes better sense as if the rebels smell a rat and don't come, he still wins, if more slowly.
If they do come, he has tilted the field in his favor, the fleet, his legion of "best" troops plus a working DS.

He did not plan for Luke so what he did with him could be him winging it.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

One: Don't forget, it's a story, as well as an allegory. People in real life have made grand plans despite numerous variables. Some have succeeded, many have failed. If people didn't act until every single variable could be accounted for, then nothing would get done. Also, if there was no doubt that the plan would succeed or fail, then that removes all suspense from the story. I'm reminded of these words from the Annotated Screenplays:

...In [the first draft], there's no hint that there may be another hope if Luke fails. In the revised second draft, a few lines of dialogue were added as Luke's X-wing disappears in the sky: Yoda says: "Now we must find another." Ben replies: "He is our only hope." And in the third draft, after Luke takes off, Ben says: "The boy is our last hope." Yoda replies: "No...we must search for another." - Irvin Kershner: The Annotated Screenplays

My feeling about Luke being the last hope was really done in an effort to make sure that he was in some jeopardy, that he might not succeed. I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he fails, 'there is another hope'. So the audience is saying 'Don't go, finish your training. - George Lucas: The Annotated Screenplays

Two: Palp's foresight may not be perfect, but it's certainly better than everyone else's, and that gives him a leg up. Not to mention the fact that his greatest skill, manipulation, helps him account for those stray variables, he's able to account for a lot. I mean, 99% of his plan did work, after all.

Three: I'm of the opinion that Palps was aware of many possible future outcomes, good and bad. What he was doing behind the scenes was setting things up to raise the odds of his intended outcome. Despite all Palp's claims about his plans always working, he was concerned about variables that he couldn't completely control:

EMPEROR- There is a great disturbance in the Force.

VADER- I have felt it.

EMPEROR- We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker.

VADER- Yes, my master.

EMPEROR- He could destroy us.

VADER- He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

EMPEROR- The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

VADER-
If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.

EMPEROR-
Yes. Yes. He would be a great a
sset. Can it be done?

The Emperor knows that Luke, a variable he wasn't aware of in ANH, is a new danger, and even admits that Luke could be the end of him. He also asks Vader if Luke could be turned. Whether or not that's a legitimate question or his way of testing Vader is up for debate. And the audience knows (or later discovers) something that Palps, Vader and Luke don't know - that Ben could still help Luke (using a hitherto unknown Force ability), and that Yoda had survived the Jedi purge.

The novelization touches on Yoda in Luke's final confrontation:

Palpatine noted the emotions on Luke's face and chuckled. "So, in your early training you have followed your father's path, it would seem. But alas, Obi-wan is now dead, I believe; his elder student, here, saw to that-" again, he made a hand motion toward Vader. "So tell me, young Skywalker-who continued your training?"

That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.

The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. "There was one called…Yoda. An aged Master Jedi…Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then."

Luke flashed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself-to see all, to show nothing; only to be.

"This Yoda," the Emperor mused. "Lives he still?"

Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.

"Ah," cried Emperor Palpatine. "He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you." He beamed.

So, there are ways to hide things from Palpatine, but it's very difficult. Vader was able to divine Luke's thoughts about Leia as well. (That said, Vader didn't sense Luke's connection over Tatooine or in the DS trench, nor Leia's connection when she's standing right in front of him). Palpatine was probably well aware of Vader's intent to turn Luke for his own purposes, but above all, Palps knows that Vader feels defeated, and convinced himself that he can't live without the Dark Side. It could be argued that, had Vader turned at any point other than when Palps was focused on killing Luke, Palps would have sensed it and killed Vader on the spot. In fact, there was a line somewhere (can't find it now) where Palps "felt" something in the Force just before Vader grabbed him.

There's also this:

VADER- Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny.

What's interesting about this line is that Palpatine stated "He could destroy us", but Vader says "You can destroy the Emperor"

Vader knows that Palpatine's foresight is power, but not perfect. Palpatine (correctly) foresees Luke destroying the Sith, but Vader is hoping that, in turning Luke, he can save himself in the process of taking out Palps. At this point, he sees Luke, as his son, simply as a tool to be used to improve his own odds. Later on, it's when he sees himself in Luke that finally manages to make the crucial decision to risk his own life to take out the Emperor. Had it been anyone else, no other Jedi could have gotten nearly as close to Palps and Vader as Luke did. Family was the key.

Finally, despite all of Palp's powers, none of them were powerful enough to overcome his greatest weakness:

LUKE- Your overconfidence is your weakness.

EMPEROR- Your faith in your friends is yours.

In the end, Luke was right. Palps believed whole-heartedly in his ability to manipulate people and events to bring his plan to fruition. And honestly, who could blame him? in 99% of the Hexalogy, he'd gone from the senator from Naboo to taking over the Galactic Republic, wiping out the Jedi, and turning the "Prophesized Threat" to help him do it. You can't blame the guy for thinking he was going to beat the odds. He even hedged his bet in the final act, thinking Luke and Vader would fight each other (which they did), and he would get to keep the loser as his apprentice. That's about as win-win as it gets.

What caused him to fail was the one variable that he knew about, but never truly understood - the strength of a father's love. I'm reminded of Thrawn's words:

“Understood, sir,” Pellaeon said. “With your permission, I’ll get the Chimaera under way.” He turned to go—And paused. Halfway across the room, one of the sculptures had not disappeared with the others. Sitting all alone in its globe of light, it slowly writhed on its pedestal like a wave in some bizarre alien ocean. “Yes,” Thrawn said from behind him. “That one is indeed real.”

“It’s … very interesting,” Pellaeon managed. The sculpture was strangely hypnotic.

“Isn’t it?” Thrawn agreed, his voice sounding almost wistful. “It was my one failure, out on the Fringes. The one time when understanding a race’s art gave me no insight at all into its psyche. At least not at the time. Now, I believe I’m finally beginning to understand them.”

“Learn about art, Captain,” Thrawn said, his voice almost dreamy. “When you understand a species’ art, you understand that species.”

Palpatine had already turned Vader once based on the concept of "family"....he figured it would work again. He had been able to turn Anakin's "love" into a fear of losing that which he loved, and fear can be a powerful motivator. We now know, in hindsight, that it failed....but it could very well have succeeded. The idea of Luke killing Vader was toyed with at one point.

"Another dark idea that Lawrence Kasdan had for the ending was to have Luke put on Vader's mask and say that he's now going to destroy the Rebel fleet and rule the universe. It was discussed that in his confrontation with the Emperor, Luke could pretend that he'd been turned to the Dark side. The Emperor would then take him to the controls and tell him to destroy the Rebel fleet; instead, Luke would aim at the Emperor's home planet of Had Abbadon and destroy it." - Annotated Screenplays

In the end, although Palps was aware of the danger of the Chosen One Prophecy, he wasn't going to give up everything he'd earned without fighting for it...and he very nearly succeeded.

I think Palpatine goofed by thinking that Luke would "destroy" them in hateful battle, rather than through faith and love. It's impossible to know exactly what details Palps could actually "see", but while Luke did "destroy" the Sith, it was Vader that actually killed him. Then again, Ben says Palps knew that Vader's children were dangerous:

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.

In hindsight, it would appear that the "threat" they constituted would be to return his humanity to him, but prior to this, it's unclear how the children would change anything. I have my own personal theory about Ben, Yoda, and Luke, but that's another discussion.

 

Like you said, the murder of Dooku doesn't actually turn Anakin. I personally don't think Sidious had to switch to plan B there, his original plan was just to get Anakin back to Coruscant so he can convert him there. Anakin murdering Dooku was just a bonus on top of that.

If Sidious didn't want to reveal his identity to Grievous, I think he would've done a much better job covering his face during their holographic conversations.
I believe Sidious only foresaw certain parts of that battle, such as Anakin and Obi Wan safety getting to the ship. The fighting part with Dooku was an uncertainty, hence his worried look during the fight. For the remainder of the battle after Dooku's death, he didn't look worried. He probably told Grievous to put up a fight just enough to make it look like he's trying. To the audience the fight looks very intense, but Sidious probably felt confident enough that Anakin could handle something of that difficulty level. I guess it's somewhat similar ANH where the main characters struggled so much to finally escape from the Death Star, but then we learn that Tarkin and Vader actually intentionally let them go.

How is it not dementia that the fails to see the problem of saying, "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny... and take your father's place at my side!" at that time. There's like, four things wrong with those 19 words he said.

1. Speaking up is already a problem on its own. Luke was in rage with Vader, but having a third person in the room saying something, anything, will bring Luke back to reality. And it's worse that that third person is Sidious, whom Luke wants to destroy more than Vader. He's reminding Luke of his presence in the room.

2. He is commenting on how Luke is engulfed by hatred, which is the perfect reminder to Luke that he needs to control his emotions. In ROTS he said something similar to Anakin, but with the opposite intention. It was after he revealed himself to be the Sith lord, and Anakin pointed his lightsaber at him in anger. Sidious said, "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger." As a result of his words, Anakin calmed down, turned off his lightsaber, and decided to turn him over to the Council instead. Which is what Sidious wanted, having Windu attempt to arrest him and Anakin stopping it. But in ROTJ, Sidious says something similar to Luke and expects it to have no effect?

3. He tells Luke to kill Vader. But Luke hates Sidious. Even if he told Luke NOT to kill Vader, there would probably be a better chance than that of Luke killing him. In ROTS, Sidious made good use of reverse psychology. By requesting Anakin to go to Utapau to take down Grievous, he ensured that Anakin would be in Coruscant when it was time for Sidious to confront the Jedi. His highly manipulative skills demonstrated in the PT were no longer present in ROTJ. Back then he could make use of everything, be it love, hate, or even as with this case, the Jedi's distrust for himself. But in ROTJ... I don't know what he's doing.

4. Even if he doesn't have the high EQ shown in the PT, basic observation skills would tell him him that each time he gloated, Luke calms down a bit. Did it not occur to him then that maybe he should stop gloating? If not then he is demented.

I also want to point out that the only reason Luke even came close to killing Vader was because Vader threatened to convert Leia. As far as I can tell, this wasn't even part of Sidious's original plan. So why was he so confident the whole time about Luke killing Vader out of anger/hatred, despite knowing beforehand that Luke had compassion for Vader? His confidence is completely unjustified, and to me this is dementia. He's not just "overconfident," he's like, delirious.

Yeah good point, Yoda didn't tell him about force lighting either. Honestly, I find Yoda quite vague in a lot of things he says, so it's kind of hard to prove anything using his words.

Ok I see. So the command power turns off at a certain distance, and can only be turned back on when the Subject is right in front of the User, and it takes time and concentration to achieve that. In ESB, the command power was turned off when Vader was far away in Bespin. If Vader and Luke approached Sidious together, Luke can attack Sidious before Sidious has a chance to turn the command power back on for Vader. But in ROTJ, the command power was still "on" the whole time Vader was on Endor, thus was already "on" when Vader and Luke entered the room from the elevator. Contradiction resolved.

Ok so it looks like your original interpretation of the events in Bespin is actually similar to mine, regarding Vader thinking that Luke still needs more training before they can defeat Sidious together. But after watching the prequels, you believe that Vader should know there is absolutely no way Sidious would have two apprentices simultaneously, because Sidious got Anakin to kill Dooku after defeating him. But my interpretation of the Anakin vs Dooku fight is different from you, so my understanding of Vader's mindset in the OT hasn't changed in that regard after watching the PT.

True, his friends might all die before he has a chance to stop the fighting. But in such a desperate situation, anything with the slightest hope could be worth trying.

Well in ESB when Vader told Luke to use his anger, he wasn't actually expecting Luke to kill him right? He certainly wasn't under the command spell in Bespin. So I thought it would be the same for ROTJ. He's just guiding Luke towards the dark side, perhaps as prepping for the training once he does turn, but the actual turn itself still has to be a conscious decision.

 

I think that Sidous did expect Anakin to turn after he murdered Dooku but when he didn't, he had to change plans.
If all Sidious wanted was to get Anakin back to Coruscant, why bother with all this kidnap, big battle thing?
Simply order Anakin back, done.

No, Sidious did this to pit Dooku vs Anakin and see who won, the winner he would keep, the looser dies.

He did about as much "hiding" of his his face in TPM when he talked to Nute and yet Nute had no idea that Sidious is Palpatine.
So no, I don't think Griev has any idea that Sidious is Palpatine.

Except that once Dooku is dead, Sidious has got what he wanted, at least mostly. Anakin still hasn't turned. So any further fighting is pointless and has needless risks.
I also doubt that he had planned for the ship to get shot at, break in half or crash on Coruscant.
So there is no "script" that Griev is following, he tries to kill them but does not succeed.

Overconfidence is not dementia. Tarkin was overconfident and underestimated the rebels chances and this cost him his life. But that does not make him into a moron.

Again, it is overconfidence, he can feel the hate in Luke and he thinks, based on all his experience, that no one can withstand this hate. That no one can not stop themselves from giving in. And he thinks that turning is forever, much like Yoda and Obi-Wan. But Luke and Anakin both prove them wrong.
Luke is able to back away from the edge and Anakin is able to let go of his hate and turn back.
Neither of which Sidious thought possible.
Again this does not make him a moron anymore than Tarkin was a moron.

His plan in RotS could have been ruined had Mace not been such an idiot.
Had Mace taken the time to contact Yoda and the other masters and made some sort of plan beyond charging in sword drawn. Had Anakin been with Mace from the start then things could go differently.
Had he attacked the group with Anakin being there, then Anakin might have fought back on instinct.

Again, how turning works in the PT is very different to the OT and don't work well together.

Is Jabba demented?
He dropped Luke to the Rancor, gloating that this would mean his death but Luke killed the Rancor instead.
So he plans to drop Luke in the Sarlac, gloating that this would kill him slowly but again Luke comes out on top.
Is every Bond villain that puts Bond in a death trap instead of just shooting him demented?

Sidious did not know about Leia so that could not be part of the plan.
The plan was simple, show Luke his friends dying and all that he had fought for destroyed.
All to get him boiling mad, mad enough to attack in hate. Vader steps in and Luke focuses his hate on him and if his hate is strong enough and he kills Vader, boom he turns.

After the PT, both given what happened to Dooku and the rule of two, Vader would totally know that if Luke turns then either he or Sidious would have to die.
So if he ever really planned to freeze Luke and hand him over to the emperor, then it would mean his or Luke's death.
His behavior in RotJ works as to me, he seemed resigned to his fate, that he knew that either Luke does not turn, so Vader kills him. Or he turns and he and Luke fights to the death and whoever wins gets to be Sidious slave, the looser dies.
The odd man out is ESB, as now he openly declares war on Sidious by talking about turning Luke. If he hands Luek over, it would likely mean his own death.

In ESB originally, Vader could have Luke join them and they could work together. He has his own plans which are dependent on Luke being strong enough to be of use. If not, Luke would just be their servant.

But this would make Luke into a moron.

[/QUOTE]

In ESB, originally, Vader had Luke outclassed and he knew that.
So goading Luke is quite safe as even if Luke gets angry, Vader knows he can still take him.
Vader first tried to use fear against Luke but that didn't work.
He tried to freeze him and was disappointed when Luke was beaten so easily.
But Luke got out and now Vader tries to get Luke angry.
But this also does not work.
So now Vader is stepping up his game and is beating Luke down, to test how strong he is.
He could have ended the fight any time he wanted but he wanted to see how strong Luke really was.
Once he knew that, he made a tempting offer.
Luke would live, rule the galaxy with his father and end the conflict.
Nothing about anger here.
It is the futility approach, as in making Luke think it is hopeless plus a tempting offer.
But Luke chooses death.

In RotJ, Vader knows by now that Luke is stronger and if Luke gives in to his hate, he could beat Vader.
It happened already when Luke kicked Vader down the stairs.
So his goading here is playing with fire, if Luke gets really mad then Vader could get killed.
But Vader does this because he can do no other, he has to obey the emperor.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Because he's an egotist. He can't imagine Palpatine would ever consider him dispensable. Dooku thinks he has something Palpatine needs, when really it's entirely the other way around.

 

Palps is delirious, but he does not suffer from dementia. Part of the problem is, you are accepting everything Palpatine says at face value - a mistake Luke learned not to do. Palps is all about manipulation, and he will say whatever it takes to get someone to do his bidding. I'm reminded of this line from U-571:

This is the navy,
where a commanding officer
is a mighty and terrible thing...
a man to be feared
and respected.
All knowing, all powerful.
Don't you dare say what you said
to the boys back there again...
"I don't know."
Those three words will kill
a crew, dead as a depth charge.
You're the skipper now,
and the skipper always knows
what to do, whether he does
or not.

Palpatine must make his apprentices believe he is all-powerful and all-knowing, or else they will exploit his weaknesses. Vader's plan to take down the Emperor starts from the moment Palps states the possibility that Luke could destroy them. Foreseeing this possibility means that Palps could be defeated.

And to be clear, Luke did not choose death in ESB nor ROTJ. What he chose was not to accept the false choice presented to him by a Sith - that the only way to succeed, to get what one wants, was by using the Dark Side. This was the very trap that Anakin fell into in ROTS - that the only way to save his wife and the galaxy was through the power of the Dark Side. Palps had convinced Anakin that the Jedi were evil, so he separated himself from them, and when he learns of Padme's death, all he had left was the Dark Side and Palpatine. He was like an alcoholic - forced to retreat always to the very thing that had actually ruined his life in the first place, because he had driven everything else away. He had become a prisoner in his own mind - always able to leave, but never able to admit that he had done all this to himself. Without his anger, and the power it gave him, he'd have nothing, and then he'd be no use to Palpatine - who would kill and replace him at that point.

Luke chose to place his faith in the Will of the Force to show him what needed to be done. Vader's biggest mistake in ESB was telling Luke that the Emperor had foreseen him killing Palps. Once Luke heard this, he knew there had to be another way out, a third choice. (Unfortunately, Luke's added "yell" in the SE ruins the scene in this regard. Luke acted out of commitment, not fear. You can see it in his face when he makes the decision.)

LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

And there is a "Rule of Two"...but it's not a rule of nature. It's simply the understanding that when you get three Sith together, two will band together to take out the third. The Sith simply do not like to share, but no one person can do everything, so it makes sense to have the smallest group possible. In this way, the Master need only focus his watchful eye on the apprentice, sending them out to do the Master's bidding, much like Ghengis Khan would send his hordes out to conquer everyone surrounding him so they wouldn't become complacent and try to take his place instead.

As to Force Lightning, the first thing I thought of when Ben blocked Dooku's bolts was, "Why didn't Yoda tell Luke about this?" Although this is a bit of a retcon on my part, I think Ben and Yoda deliberately sent Luke in as a kind of "sacrificial lamb". The problem with facing Palps and Vader is that, at some point, they could divine knowledge from others. As such, their plan for Luke depended on not telling Luke everything, but only what he absolutely needed to know.

YODA
No more training do you require. Already know
you that which you need.

Choosing the Light or Dark Side of the Force needs to be a choice, but it is a choice that requires preparation. This is shown in the movie, as well as the novelizations:

LUKE
Unfortunate that I know the truth?

YODA
No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face
him... that incomplete was your training. Not
ready for the burden were you.

----------------------------------

"He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
felt drawn.
"Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free
will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be
seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew
these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be
read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always
been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate
vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will
then bring him before me." - ROTJ novelization

------------------------------------

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost,
he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally.
There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor
now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and
Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the
galaxy.
So Vader had to shephered the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing
damage in the wrong places—or in the right places prematurely.

Just as Palpatine laid the seeds for influencing Anakin's choice by placing ideas and doubts in his mind, everything the Jedi and Sith were telling Luke was to prepare him for his choice as well. For the Sith, this meant fear and lies, so Luke would believe there was no other choice. For the Jedi, it meant careful omissions so that Luke could draw his own conclusions, and find a third choice - guided by following the Will of the Force. Ultimately, it had to be Vader who killed Palpatine, not Luke....but somehow, Luke had to convince Vader to make that choice. Simply telling Luke to convince his father to kill Palps wasn't really an option, because you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Ambiguity forced Luke to try to find his own way to resolve the conflict.

LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

Now, we will never truly know to what extent Ben, Yoda, and Palpatine could foresee the future, but they ALL knew about the Prophecy. But even if Ben and Yoda saw more than they let on, such foreknowledge could have worked against the plan. Luke faced Palpatine with the intention of A) serving as a diversion, and B) hoping to turn his father back from the Dark Side. Imagine if he'd known ahead of time that he would have to be on the precipice of death before his father would make his fateful choice? Such knowledge could not only bias his actions, but also could be potentially read by Palps and Vader. If he'd known about Force Lightning, he'd never have thrown down his lightsaber, wasting his time trying to kill Palpatine (which went against the Prophecy).

Ben, Yoda and Palpatine all knew that Anakin's children were a "threat" to him. What's debatable is if they knew what that "threat" was. Were they destined to kill Anakin, or restore his humanity? What Luke didn't know was that, ultimately, he had to be a model for Anakin. Luke had to demonstrate to Anakin the choice that a Jedi should make - to hold to one's convictions regardless of fear and loss, to have faith that the Force will be an ally in even the worst situation.

LUKE
I can't. It's too big.

YODA
Size matters not. Look at me.
Judge me by my size, do you?
Hm? Mmmm.

YODA
And well you should not. For my
ally is the Force. And a powerful
ally it is.

The Force created Anakin for a reason, but Anakin stopped listening to the Force and became lost. Luke became the blueprint for Anakin, showing him the choice he should have made in ROTS, but couldn't because he was overcome by his own fears. (I read somewhere - can't recall where - that because Anakin didn't fulfill his destiny in ROTS, the Force had to start over and give him a second chance.)

Even at the height of his anger and power, Luke was able to turn himself back from the Dark Side...even in the face of certain death at the hand of Palpatine. When Vader saw Luke was willing to sacrifice himself, rather than give into his fears, this was the "nudge" he needed to sacrifice himself. It was the counterpoint to his self-imposed belief that it was too late for him to make that same choice. Up until that point, Vader saw Luke as a tool to further his own selfish needs, and the fact that it was his son was just an added bonus. When he turned, he stopped seeing Luke as a tool for himself, but as a father. He also saw himself in Luke, and realized that Luke was making the choice that Vader was capable of making all along, but was too scared to do so. Once he no longer cared about whether he lived or died in pursuit of doing the right thing, taking out Palps even if it meant death finally became an easy choice. Thus, Luke's actions made Anakin the "third choice". It also helps that, rather than killing Palps in anger and to further the pursuit of power - which would have fed into the Dark Side, he did so out of righteousness, love, and concern for others (his daughter, the rebel forces, and the galaxy as a whole). He finally realized that he had become the very thing he thought he was fighting against, to the point of even threatening his own daughter (again, as a tool, a means to an end) in order to get what he wanted. Palpatine had robbed Anakin of his humanity, and Luke (and Leia) were there to restore it.

Once he realized that he was in a prison of his own making, a cell without walls, he stopped becoming a victim of his own lies. Much like an alcoholic, the first - and hardest - step is admitting that you have a problem. Once you do that, the problem no longer has control over you.

But none of this could simply be told. One had to walk the walk. It had to be demonstrated. It had to be a whole-hearted choice, without pause or regret. Luke kept telling Vader over and over that he sensed good in Anakin...but telling him this only led to denial. Vader didn't believe it, either from Luke or himself. Vader had to be put in a position where he had to be forced to admit the truth, and that meant putting Luke in a position that would force Vader to confront himself and see the person he had truly become.

YODA
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi
will you be. And confront him you will.


Luke and Anakin had to make their own decisions based on faith, on what they believed was right, despite their fears. Anakin finally realized that he had been wrong this whole time - a difficult thing to acknowledge, and thus acted in the faith that Luke held, and in doing so, fulfilling Luke's faith. Any more information would have ruined that scenario.

If you're religious, this scenario is a little easier to comprehend if you replace the Force with God (or whatever deity fits the bill). It also helps to see Star Wars as an allegory. People make bad choices all the time, due to anger, fear, greed, alcohol, etc. These films are about the choices we make....not dementia.

Lucas: "If you read about human history, you can see that there is a pattern of events that occur and these chaotic conditions must exist in a democracy for a dictatorship to seize control. If you read about the rise of the Third Reich in Germany, you can get a sense of all the chaos and strife that undermined the stability of democracy in Germany and then made it possible for tyrrany to seize control of both the government and the people's hearts. These conditions are repeated all throughout history when a democracy falls and an 'Empire"-type government takes its place . . . " - Leonard Maltin interview

 

@Samuel Vimes
Hey I just want to add one more thing to my previous post. I haven't finished reading your last post yet but I'll reply when I get a chance.

I forgot to say one more point here. Let's call this #4, and change the original #4 to #5.

4. He is reasserting who the real enemy is. He is fully displaying his own cold-bloodedness. Luke is more likely to see Vader as a fellow victim of Sidious now. In ROTS, Sidious did a good job of diverting attention away from himself, by saying to Windu that with Grievous still alive, "the Senate will vote to continue the war." But in ROTJ, he is diverting Luke's anger away from Vader, towards himself.

 

I agree, some risks are just worth taking.

Well he did have one major screw up in ROTS. He was overconfident about Order 66 going perfectly, so much that he let Vader travel ALONE all the way to Mustafar, AND he didn't bother hiding Padme somewhere despite knowing very well that she was Vader's greatest weakness. He was reckless there and his apprentice paid dearly for that. His overall plans in ROTS were still brilliant though, just not flawless.

I haven't read your new post yet but I'll get to it.