ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

There's a lot of subtle ad hominem on the boards (not that ^^^). Two of the most used insults are that critics are "whiners" or "babies" or "conspiracy theorists."

That's not real argument, of course, and as a previous poster said, it's actually a sign that one side is losing a debate and has to trot out weak or irrelevant personal attacks.

One personal attack used for a longtime was that Mark Hamill was dumb or something when it came to judging storytelling opinions. It used another fallacy to make this attack: that if someone had a bad idea, then all of their ideas are bad. That's called the hasty generalization fallacy.

There's a fine line in argument, however, between legitimate personal criticisms and the irrelevant kind we call ad hominem -- if the personal critique is relevant to the argument, then it's not just a rhetorical ploy or support for a weak argument.

For example, if someone's film truly has a lot of misogyny in it, then it's not an attack to say the creator was consciously or unconsciously misogynistic. It may be a false claim, in fact, but that doesn't make it an attack, but merely a false, or true, claim.

Mark's aesthetic opinions are of a different nature. They have to do with taste, which is largely subjective. The key takeaway here is that even if you think Mark has bad taste or says false things at times, it doesn't follow that everything, or even most things, he says, are false. That's a fallacy.

 

Mark is disappointed he couldn't have worked with Carrie and Harrison in the same scene after 30+ years. And that's fair. But I think this trilogy has always been looked at as a Story for this new generation of characters.

 

Then why spend so much of TLJ focusing on Luke and degrading, humiliating, and disrespecting the Luke character at the same time. If they can take up so much screen time to deconstruct an iconic character, they can spend a minute or two of screentime to have a scene with Luke, Han, and leia together.

This is supposed to be rey’s Story, but Rey was pushed aside to tell that Kylo and Luke story in TLJ, so I disagree that the reason that the OT3 were not shown together was because this was a story of a new generation. Star Wars has always had more than one generation of characters.

 

Well Luke was basically a mixture of Yoda and Obi wan in terms of what his role was. but really its just how they structured this trilogy. they would have had to structure it purely for the sake of getting the 3 on screen together and i suspect that wasn't their first intention for this new generation story.

As for it being about Rey. i don't think this trilogy is just Reys story. its clearly a story for new characters. including Kylo.

 

Poor Mark, if he shares anything, even out of melancholy or nostalgia, there suddently is conspiracies and people asking him if this is a spoiler or sign of something in ROS.

 

People have mostly been happy to see Lando piloting the Falcon, right? Oh and Palpatine returning, right? So, why is one scene with the OT generation together so bad?

 

Well no. I've been happy about seeing Rey doing Jedi Stuff and the premise of tieing ALL movies together. And of Course the premise of seeing the ultimate evil of SW coming back is a great hook and suprise I didnt expect at all. Thats why we all were hyped: Sheev wasnt expected at all to return!

Seriously what is with the OT gang that some Need them THIS much in the new movies? It's amazing to see them of Course and I love the reunion of Han and Leia, Chewie and Luke. But hell Ep VII to IX isnt majorly about THEM! Its about the new characters. Lucas wouldnt even have this much OT Gang in his movies at all as we have them now. Han, Leia and Chewie are FRONTCENTER in TFA, Luke is THE character of Ep VIII. We did get reunion Scenes with Luke and Chewie, A BEAUTIFUL Scene of Luke and Leia together and Luke winking at 3PO. What else?! R2 reuniting with Luke on the Falcon (!!!) and showing him the old hologram of Leia from Ep IV. Wow...yeah no reunion and nostalgia at all...

Why do we Need another rehash of some EU or OT stories with the ST? This whole Thing about nostalgia really annoys me. Some fans are like: I want OT 2.0! And even when they try to do it (like with TFA) they are not satisfyed because this or that is missing. I cant hear it anymore.

Give the new stuff the room it deserves and needs. Otherwise we will never get stories outside the Skywalker Saga because the fandom simply showcasts how they wont accept other stuff than that. The OT BIG 3 had their time and it's not like they dont get any Attention These days. .

 

Part of the rub is that those who love the OT want a new generation to discover the glories of SW yore, the problem is special effects and writing. Young people want MCU (Marvel), and Jurassic World. They want it to look new, and so the OT csnnot deliver on that; so the OTs hope TFA and the other chapters stirr the same feelings and have enough O- and T cells to cross the divide between the Classic Trilogy generation ans the New Trilogy generation.

 

Thatt doesnt work though! SW can't always be the OT first and everything else second. Yes the OT are the Originals but at the same time there is SO MUCH MORE! The same Problem occured with the Prequels when the designs and Story expectations didnt match with what People imagined between 1983 and 1999.

Its like some People dont want accept anything not OT and not nostalgic related to it and their memories and expectations...

 

I think it must be seen in addition to the the character development of the new gang. There is just missing the emotional connection to follow their adventures. A family connection to Luke and Han/Leia would have helped for sure and nope the evil Kylo won't do it. Of course this is only my opinion, but some others may feel the same. It just feels disconnected from the rest of the saga.

 

It’s not the fairytale some wanted, but I admire how real to life the ST is. Things never turn out as we hope. Old friends lose their way. Others die.

 

Whats probably harder about it is that episode 6 was released in 1983. thats a long time to now make this sequel trilogy take on that kind of direction and not expect some to feel abit hurt but it.

But at the same time this trilogy has clearly taken on the idea how the PT progressed to the OT and done it again in a similar fashion.

 

Was the Star Wars saga created to be real to life or was it created to be a modern myth?

It's been said that the question of "Who is Luke Skywalker?" is what drew JJ finally on board to make Episode 7. Perhaps the question should have been: "What is this franchise at its heart?"

 

I feel like the character who is a great hero who later loses his way is really common in stories though and is a part of modern myth. The young hero is brimming over with ideals and the good ending for this character is a realization of their ideals in some sense. For the older character who was the big hero, they often have to deal with the death of ideals and dreams in some form, and with regrets or mistakes.

 

Exactly. I am a bit surprised that so many miss this point. It's a trilogy of trilogies. Cyclical. As George Lucas said: like music and repeating patterns. The OT was not centered around the heroes of the PT. We saw Obi Wan and Yoda in the OT, but it was not a return to their glorious heyday of the Old Republic era. I expected the same treatment for our heroes of the OT in the ST and that is largely what has occured.

 

I absolutely think that an older hero losing his way is a common story and a perfectly valid part of modern myth. I think they simply took it too far with Luke, with utterly pathetic payoff for the arc at the end. For me, Luke didn't just lose his way. They actually took away some of his accomplishments that made him a great hero. Luke was supposed to bring back the Jedi. This was implicit in his RotJ/OT arc and it was explicitly set up in the dialogue multiple times. It's the end I always presumed for years and years. Taking that from the character retroactively reduces the emotional satisfaction of his arc in the OT for me, and then on top of that they made all the new bad stuff arguably his fault. Maybe it isn't literally his fault, but it's inarguable to me that Luke failed to protect his Jedi and he failed to do anything about his nephew that he trained running around destroying the galaxy.

Not only that, but the other part of the emotional satisfaction of the OT is the found family aspect of it. Luke, Leia and Han found their place with each other. The trilogy ends with them together, finally able to rest and enjoy their family. That was utterly destroyed in the ST, and again, that's on top of the cynical hero arc. It's just a pile on.

On the one hand it isn't the story of the OT heroes, but on the other it's their story enough to ruin their ending to what was actually their story. To me, RoS has to fix it in some way to be at all emotionally satisfying. You can't steal the emotional satisfaction of one beloved story and hand it to others and then say, "but it's not those characters' story anymore!" If it's not, leave them out of it. I'm a bit apprehensive with the rumors lately that sound incredibly Kylo-centric, but without the context of the entire Skywalker family playing a significant role, and I just don't think that cuts it. Luke's arc to me isn't narratively finished, despite his death. It's too much my personal definition of emotionally unsatisfying. They reopened it and they are stuck with it being reopened in my eyes.

 

Exactly. The OT WAS the story of Luke, Han and Leia et al and while I fully expected the ST not to be, I didn`t expect it to make the OT pointless. With TLJ!Luke in mind and thinking that was definitely the character trajectory, I couldn`t root for the character in the OT anymore because my disgust basically travels back with me to that viewing experience.

And I do not expect a redemption of the character in episode 9, simply because they think that little non-event on Crait with was neither impressive nor relevant to me on any level was it. It`s supposed to be his "comeback". And now he is a force ghost, which despite the "more powerful than you could imagine" line, never really meant anything. Unless the character is narratively relevant and actually IS powerful and DOES something relevant with that power in ep 9, he will remain a broken, unredeemed loser to me.

Giving the Incel Space Nazi the big moment and/or any version of "happy" ending over any and all characters I actually care for? Just would add insult to injury. I hate that the Skywalker name is in utter ruins right now but if I have the choice between the likes of Kylo "redeeming" it or noone redeeming it, I`ll take noone in a heartbeat. I`d find it way more happy if he, I don`t know, got slow-cooked by Ewoks.

Sure, my preference would be Luke redeeming himself but that`s just plain unrealistic at this point. Especially with Mark`s general attitude of "eh" about his role.

 

Yeah, the bolded has already neutered a lot of my hope TBF. The title Rise of Skywalker screamed "Luke is being redeemed!" at me, but nothing since has reinforced that instinct.

 

Redeemed? Struck me as “Second Coming.”

 

could be Hamill down playing his part to not ruin any surprises. I don't think the execs would be pleased with him saying anything like "my role is huge! far far better than what they gave me last time, plus...green lightsaber action baby"

but then again that might get more people in the seats. So who knows.

 

Ironically and tragically, I think there is still a chance for Leia to be shown as a good Skywalker who ends IX on a resoundingly positive note for her character. Even if Kylo's story is tragic and he dies on the dark side, Leia can still be the Skywalker rising at the end if IX as new leader of the Republic or something after the FO is vanquished.

That, plus if they do the mentor relationship of Force Ghost Luke and Rey just right, then you have enough of a rise of Skywalker to make the title make sense and have the final chapter be positive for the main family of this saga. Maybe Spirit Luke can even fight in a battle, if it's in the capacity of defending resistance soldiers who are facing certain death, not attacking the FO outright.

We can then see the 9 part saga as:

1-3: Introduction of the universe, tragic fall of Anakin Skywalker
4-6: The Skywalker son works to overcome the mistakes of his dark father and succeeds
7-9: The Skywalker daughter works to overcome the mistakes of her dark son and succeeds

A LOT of work to do in ROS to get to this point though. Leia has to be important in IX. And they have to figure out a way, even if its through force telepathy, that Leia and Ben Solo communicate with each other in the film.

 

I hope we find out that the Jedi Academy destruction was Palps's machinations 2.0. Better for Luke to have been put down by a genius in Palps than by some useless loser wannabe in Snoke.

what they did with Snoke in TLJ makes it so awkward that this chump is the guy who put down Luke Skywalker who faced the Emperor without hesitation.

 

I'd love to dig deep into some other examples of this, particularly if portrayed in popular cinema, like Luke.