ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

They had a tremendous three story arc in the Darth Bane novels that fully embraced Jedi and Sith lore that was made non canon.

Disney is terrified of exploring this because some people complained about Jedi jumping and flipping in the PT.

 

Sorry. what I should have said was
A book on yet another random force sensitive...
I was thinking of Broom boy and Holdo (if it's really confirmed that she was).

 

I thought Rebels had a good balance between force stuff and non-force stuff. And as much as I’m looking forward to both the Mandalorian and Cassian shows, I agree we need some more stories featuring jedi and force lore stuff going forward.

This force collector story seems interesting though. Perhaps a future student for Rey to train, or given that Rey isn’t all that much older maybe the two team up to start a new academy?

 

Except that after two movies there isn't a reason in the world to think Ren would be redeemable because there has been nothing shown that is at all showing someone who could be redeemed. That he can't be a redemption case as presented is the certainty.

 

I guess being Supreme Leader and wanting to enslave the galaxy isn't enough for some people. Han and Rey wanted to help him and he refused, and he hurt them and even killed Han. I'm ready to bet Luke and Leia might have unsavory things to say about him in the future as well.

 

The new films are likely to have plenty of force-related material. And the TV shows will focus on other massively appealing parts of Star Wars. There will be something for everyone.

No, Jedi are not necessarily the “biggest appeal of their product.” I’m far more interested in galactic politics, conflict and the underworld than I am in Jedi superheroics, and legions of fans are similar (Rogue One’s success bears that out in many ways).

Though I of course like the mystical elements as well.

So this seems like a good balance. Saga and post-saga stories have lots of force stuff, and spin-offs and TV shows have really interesting political, criminal and warfare stuff. Winny win win win.

 

I think the Benioff & Weiss series is going to be very Force-centric. Maybe even with 3-4 lead characters who are all Jedi from a time long before the Prequel Trilogy. That's my hunch.

Something has to balance out Mandalorian and Cassian Andor series which won't feature a lot of Force/Jedi at all.

 

This doesn't make much sense as a line of criticism, given we know Qui-Gon basically figured out the ghosting thing and assumedly he, Yoda, Obi & Anakin were the first to do it, in that manner anyway. Mace never had any time for Qui-Gon's new-agey approach, even if Qui-Gon had figured out the projection thing while he was alive (for all we have to go on he didn't), Mace & Friends wouldn't have listened/learned from him anyway. It took a few years of full-on hot galactic war for Yoda to reconsider his own outlook.

And it's implied Luke's figured out something new with what he does in TLJ, he's up-and-above those that have come before.

Bing bang boom, explained. The PT guys, even the powerful big-dogs like Mace, were old guard and never bought into Qui-Gon's mystical hippie shiz. Yoda had a chance to come around in the end, pass that knowledge on, and Luke's expanded on that over the 30+ years with his own pursuits. Makes total sense none of the PT guys could project. The only part that doesn't square is how Anakin knew how to force-ghost in Jedi, but even then "The Chosen One" wipes that away as an inconsistency.

 

where is this implied that force projection is a new ability?

give me a source and I'll eat humble pie

 

When the Rebels episodes committed to the Jedi and Sith, it was amazing and it seemed like those were all of the highly regarded episodes here too but I thought those were far and few between.

I am looking forward to the new shows too, however, if they were Jedi and Sith related...I would be even more pumped for it. I think it would even be more interesting if the Mandalorian was on a treasure hunt for Jedi/Sith artifacts for some higher up baddie...just anything to start getting that mythology into current live action.

 

Well, we've never seen it in either a movie or (as far as I know) any supplementary media, so...

It all seems more linked to all that mystical side of things, OT Yoda/Ben stemming out of the Qui-Gon teachings, too.

 

that isn't so much evidence that it's a new ability though just because we've never seen it before.
It just simply didn't exist in the universe before because Lucas didn't think of it.
So yeah technically you are right. OOU it is a new ability.

 

TFA: introduces the "Force flashback"

TLJ: introduces "force projection" and "force Skype"

TROS: ??????

 

TROS introduces Force projection flash Skype dueling.

 

I certainly don't like the way Ren is presented as someone we should have empathy for, but the idea that they haven't clearly made a point of him having good in him is just incorrect (no matter how poorly presented). They are clearly setting up redemption. Also the fact that redemptive qualities haven't been shown doesn't preclude him from being a case of redemption. Vader didn't show any redemptive qualities in ANH or TESB. We'll have to wait and see how IX presents it.

 

Force ressurection?

 

"Force Filter"? Rey and Kylo apparently fight with superimposed backgrounds.

Also, "Force Possession" if Palpatine/Matt Smith rumors are to be believed.

 

I think Force possession is not a new thing. It is not used in films, but in TV shows like Clone Wars and Rebels I think?

 

Force Twitter and Force Instagram.

 

I wonder if one of those flash fights of whatever will take place on SKB forest (their TFA duel), and then move to another place and another time. A similar place, though.

In the TFA vision, the 'snowy woods' doubled as the Takodana woods (where Rey and Ben/Kylo first met) and as SKB woods; and maybe as some other place from the past, although thats not in the film. Its not clear in the passage I quoted, but it seems like a night scene.

Perhaps one of those flash fights will shift from SKB forest to this other forest from the past -it would be 'caused' (involuntarily) by him, just as Rey involuntarily shifted her vision from the KOR scene to Jakku.

Maybe there was more to 'Han Solo cant save you' than we know, and more to 'Rey' than Kylo knows.

 

The "good" in him is represented as unwanted "light" he is drawn to which is a reverse dark temptation to Luke's pull to the dark side in elements in TESB (presented by Vader) and ROTJ (Vader and Sidious). This is for a relative novice in the Force who has had teachings from Obi-Wan and Yoda. These are properly set-up and explored in the movies. The fundamentals are shown in Luke's first two movies along with the knowledge that one can turn to the dark side but when going down that path there is no way back.

Ren is no novice. He's part of a Force family lineage. He started training (younger than Luke it seems) with Luke and all the benefits of Luke's knowledge gained previously. Never mind his parents and the love they would have given him just like Shmi with Anakin and Owen and Beru with Luke. Yet the 2 movies so far are saying that the dark is his natural state of being with light a temptation which he's shunning because it will lead him astray from his path of destiny.

Only in the "because...Star Wars" way. "Kylo Ren can be redeemed because we've seen it happen in Star Wars previously." which is the bizarre rationale for Rey's arrogance (not acknowledged) that she can turn Ren "back" to being Ben because of an (offscreen) Force vision she had. She is convinced she is an expert in Force visions after mere hours as an awakened Force user.

Can anyone be redeemed? Sure it's possible because if it happened to Darth Vader then it could happen to Ren. Except that as again presented in the movies this isn't really a "redemptive" story in that sense for him.

Anakin was good and fell into evil. Ren is evil and will have to fall into good. He's never really been "good" as far as we have seen or can tell from anyone. Not even his parents were used in a way to seem to really truly believe (and therefore the audience). The combination of mystery box and subversion used means that we are presented with two movies that tell us nothing about "Ben" except that he is and effectively always was "monster" Ren.

The redemption in part is regaining what was lost. We know Vader lost his friends, the Jedi, his wife, his family, his heroism and his goodness. Ben Solo's "loss" of his parents and uncle is something that he seems to want. That is who he is. We haven't been given anything else of value. With Vader there was something to redeem.

In addition the comparison to simply ANH and TESB simply doesn't work on multiple levels. For one the story of Anakin/Vader is done over six movies:

1) We have the story now so looking at ANH and TESB in isolation to TFA and TLJ is not a level comparison.

2) This ST very specifically is leveraged around our audience knowledge of I-VI and has been from the start. They've depended on it for pretty much everything for anything to make sense because they want the audience pull that knowledge from the source material and apply that to their movies because they don't want to do the work.

3) In the context of the OT we look at TESB through the lens of ROTJ. We don't wonder if Vader was telling the truth about himself. He acknowledges he was Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father and a Jedi Knight.

 

And the reason you think that shows they succeeded. again why make this trilogy if the audience doesn't question the fate of Ren?

But at the same time if you watch the last 2 movies, while they minimized it to certain scenes so they were not yelling out to the audience HE STILL HAS LIGHT IN HIM!, they acknowledged it with Snoke scolding him or his moment between him and Leia.

Its more of a balance issue reason. but if you go to far into making Ren a soft villain then everyone will expect him to be redeemed and be waiting for it to happen. if you add reasons to question it then people will go into episode 9 uncertain of his fate. which is likely what the film makers want.

 

I think this is an excellent observation that I don't think anyone has put into words exactly before. With Vader, there was a tragic sense of loss. Thru his actions, his choices, his mistakes, and his seduction, he lost not only his sense of true self, but also his family. It was the one thing he cared about the most, and his obsessions - the dark side - took it all away. So with that, there was something for him to want to get back, to return to. Ben Solo decidedly doesn't want to be Ben Solo, and actively wants to kill his family. There's nothing for him to return to or try to get back. Nothing was taken from him. He destroyed it purposefully (for reasons we still don't know about).

This is why at the end of the day, redemption just cannot work for Kylo Ren. The necessary components to making it work aren't built into this character arc or the narrative. And by forcing it, it feels in-authentic.

 

My only question about his fate is if it will bring him maximum pain.

If they wanted me to care about his redemption, don’t have him murder his father, 40 year beloved character, if you want me to care. It’s not like killing Obi Wan, no matter how much JJ and Rian et al seem to think it is.

Don’t show him not caring that his mother got blown up, another 40 year beloved character.

Don’t show him putting a lightsaber through Luke, even if it didn’t work.

I’m tired of people yammering about how there’s good in him when we’ve seen no evidence - even Vader had stopped Boba Fett from killing Chewie. What’s Kylo done? He hasn’t even made an effort that doesn’t somehow also give him an advantage. Snoke can tell me he’s got Han’s heart and all I can think is “oh, did he cut it out of his chest before he pushed him off the gantry and I missed it?”

 

how can he redeem himself from killing his dad in cold blood? Can't ever feel sorry for a patricide committing psycho. I mean even JJ for TFA talked about how patricide is one of the most disgusting things one can do.

a good way to avoid rehahsing ROTJ is no redemption. Go full on evil and die for it........it's what Kylo wants, give it to him.