ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

You do know Vader has a much larger body count than Kylo. I wonder what movies you have been watching because I have seen a couple of things pointing to Kylo being redeemed. Kylo hesitating to kill Leia was definitely a sign there is still good in him. TFA he speaks openly about feel a pull towards the light. TFA you see Kylo instantly regret killing his father. Go back and watch his face in that scene because his face was not of a man without remorse. TLJ he revealed that he thought Luke was trying to kill him. Imagine waking up with your uncle standing over you with a weapon. That would cause some confusion about that persons intentions towards you. Kylo and Anakin have a lot in common with one difference. Anakin was in love with Padme but it was definitely more obsessive than love. Kylo is more emotionally unhinged but he is in love with his grandfathers legacy. Kylo is trying to be something he is not, so a large part of his issues have to do with being betrayed or mislead by those he once looked up to. So he wants to disconnect for all forms of control so what do you think will happen when the man who once controlled the whole galaxy tries to take power from Kylo? So he could be redeemed or he could not but nothing so far has shown that door is completely closed.

 

The amount of things Vader has done, the amount of people Vader has killed including fangirls apparently. the amount of deaths under Vader and he redeemed himself and Luke was trying to save him by the end. the simple logic really comes down to darn Luke should have left Vader to die alone for everything he did in those 20 years.

Did Vader kill Obi Wan? i suppose you could say he tried or did. he hurt padme just because he was angry. he killed many jedi as anakin. only different with Anakin/Vader is the way his story has been told is very back and forth so you hold far less against him.

They wanted to show anakin overstepped the line, he killed innocent kids.

In the long run did Ren over step the line? yes and maybe that was the point. the road to redemption is far to easy without over stepping that line.

 

Thanks. Thanks as well to Darth Philosopher for helping me to get it out that way because it's been something that I think we've all been circling.

To me it's all part of what I call the "Because... Star Wars" ethic of the ST. We are supposed to believe that Ben Solo can be redeemed from Kylo Ren because of Anakin being redeemed from Darth Vader. That doesn't really work though. The only person who actually existed before Kylo Ren seems to have been "Ren" Solo who was just a somewhat lesser bad person (simply because he didn't act on his thoughts).

At the very best Kylo Ren could be turned back to Ren Solo and go from outright evil in action to suppressing his evil actions.

They might as well redeem Sidious while they are at it! I say that in jest of course but it's not actually that far off. How exactly it's even possible to cram something in one movie that took Lucas 3 movies to work in one way and 6 movies for an overall contextual way I don't know.

At best there is some thread in TFA (which is cut off in TLJ). How do you mend that slender string which only takes the character to falling to the light because?

 

no one said that Anakin was a saint he was also a monster and it only got worse once he thought he lost his whole family and he became more machine than man, nothing but a suit full of rage and anger. And Luke was trying to save him because he's his father. He even says it, he can't kill his father. The act of patricide is an unforgivable thing anyways.

and who is left to redeem the psycho Ben anyways? He's killed most of them. Ben and Vader are the complete opposites, one wants his family the other wants to destroy them. Ben also became the head of a fascist regime after killing Snoke.

nothing in the ST shows Ben wanting redemption, all it shows is someone who wants more power and wants to continue to the darkside. That's why he's annoyed about the light.

 

Also it's not the narrative that's even dictating Kylo Ren's redemption. The fans have basically said "Redemption!!!" since as soon as they knew Kylo was Han's son. Everyone is basically just expecting it at this point. Even characters in the ST fall into this 'trap', but not because it's earned, but rather because it's essentially expected. Rey goes from hating the monster in one scene, to knowing that she can turn him back to the light in the very next. She only knows this, not because her character comes to this conclusion - much like Luke did very slowly in the OT - but because Rey knows what the audience knows, and the audience knows this is what happens with Big Bad in Star Wars. She hasn't actually learned this from anything in the narrative itself, so she (and us, unfortunately) skip over the leg work to get there.

I think if the ST ends with Kylo Ren turning to the light, that would be one thing. If Kylo Ren wakes up and realizes he's always been a horrible evil little turd, and wants to make things right...that's still horrible...but it could work. If the movie shows Kylo Ren turning back to the light, or there's any sense of redemption, it's going to feel unearned and poorly scripted.

 

Yes thats what Ben wants. he is split between the dark and the light. but only favors one. he wants to Vader but the light won't let him be what Vader was.

As for the reasoning behind it? well presumably that will be explained in episode 9. they have held back on the backstory for a reason and we will probably find out why. at the moment you can't judge anything until you see episode 9.

 

We aren't "questioning" the fate of Ren as seen in the movies though. He's a monstrous, evil bad guy who killed his father. At best he showed some hesitation (the unwanted pull of the light). He hesitated again in killing his mother (more unwanted pull of the light) and save for the others who launched the missiles there is not much doubt he would have done so once he got over it. This is confirmed later as all thoughts of her are gone. He shows nothing when she is seemingly dead and makes no notice or her through the rest of the movie until possibly the very end with the dice.

The only reason to think that there can be any redemption is because of the previous movies not because of the movies they are making.

He is a "soft" villain though but in the way of being a poor incompetent one who generally can't get things done. He's pretty lousy as being a villain. Even after the one move he actually pulls off (killing Snoke) ends up meaning nothing for his villainy as he loses to Rey, Luke and the Resistance.

The return of Sidious, who is the actual main villain now, means that move over Snoke is all but completely undermined.

Uncertain is one thing but that is based on options presented and possibilities being explored. Wondering what in the world they are possibly going to do with him because what has been seen to be shown is that nothing of real value has been explored. He's both a monster and a weak failed villain. His struggle in IX is that he should be finally successful in defeating Rey and the Resistance realize his destiny on the dark side.

We don't actually but we can assume so due to Vader being an accomplished evil as opposed to Ren's incompetence.

As noted above he got over it real quick (if it was even that much at all).

Which should have been his moment akin to Anakin killing Dooku. The start of the slide except we know that he already had a massacre plan in place but simply hadn't enacted it yet.

We don't even know what he knows of that legacy. They've had two movies to seed that knowledge to us because obviously he would also know about Anakin's redemption. The point should have been to realize that through Ren, Snoke, Leia, Han and Luke. Actually in at least the TFA novel they address some of this but if those scenes were ever scripted or shot in TFA then they didn't make the cut (unless they were just LSG additions done only for the novel).

An even competent villain is what the movies are saying. His goal is to be a new Vader but he's nowhere near that.

What in the movies really wants us to think he would want that or even contemplate it? Yes the door isn't "closed" because of what I-VI say not because of what TFA and TLJ say. Vader was redeemable because there was a person to redeem. Kylo Ren hasn't even got to the point of evil he wants to get to nevermind going back to a person (whoever that was) who seems to barely have existed if at all.

 

Thats probably part of the balance issue. you don't wanna convince the audience he will probably he redeemed, but you also don't wanna show too much confidence in him either. he is conflicted in the dark and the light and thats why he isn't good at doing this stuff.

He isn't a great villain, but you also don't want him to be a soft villain who won't be bad things.

 

I don't even think the filmmakers are presenting him as sympathetic. He's clearly a stand-in for toxic, whiny white fanboys of the fandom, and people who think he's sympathetic are just fixed on the idea the white bad boy always needs to be saved. I think it's very refreshing that after Rey tries to save him, she realizes how terrible he really is. It's a valuable lesson for girls today, especially impressionable young teens, and that she has guys like Finn and Poe who are ready to support her no matter what and who truly deserve her affection.

 

Accidentally double-posted, my apologies.

 

If he was a black bad boy now that would be perfect. too many white bad boys and white fanboys present.

 

I'm really looking forward to the next movie - Plapy!!

 

I agree with this and add that the ST has this weird privileged perspective towards Kylo Ren.

He can commit horrible acts of evil; killing his father, abusing and manipulating Rey, committing genocide, and yet the film and the characters in the films tell us to be sympathetic towards him. We're either told some version of it's not his fault, or he was influenced by Snoke, or he's tempted by the light. That we need to give him a second chance. Even his scars get moved to 'prettier' locations so that characters feel better about him.

But then, rather oddly, it's overly critical and judgmental other characters who have lesser flaws. It tells us that Finn is a coward who needs to be tasered multiple times all because he doesn't want to fight and really only wants to save Rey. Then even more oddly, tells us he's a dummy for being right about that. It treats Luke as an absolute failure, who not only needs to live in exile alone as payment for his sins, also deserves a beat-down for "creating" Kylo Ren. It slaps around Poe, demotes him, and calls him a hot-head for ignoring orders and getting his team killed, even though they all signed up for that mission.

Maybe these are fair assessments of the characters, but why does Kylo Ren get such special treatment? Why are some characters judged harshly, while the evil ones treated with sympathy? Oh...that's right, Kylo is special. He's conflicted. He's going to be redeemed. Eventually.

They have a huge task in front of them, if they're really going to redeem Kylo Ren in the next 2.5 hours.

 

Parole/ Redemption Officer: Tell us why you should be redeemed, Mr. Ren.

Kylo: I...didn’t kill my mother?

Parole/ Redemption Officer: Redeemed!

Clearly he hasn’t done anything yet to warrant a heroic redemption (watching GoT really hammers home how redemption ought to be handled...). However, there’s room for him to do something or multiple somethings in TROS to possibly justify it. And as redemption is an important SW theme, I’m open to it.

 

Lol. Zing!

Good points, hadn't really thought about that.

It does seem the good characters are held to a harsher standard.

It's really on RJ Imo, TFA doesn't baby Kylo, there is clear consequence to his actions.

You are right, there is a lot to fit into this final film if it going to work.

 

This is simply not what I got from TFA or TLJ at all. I got the impression, and a clear implication, that Kylo absolutely was once a good person, and for whatever reason (unfortunately unexplained) he's striving to emulate Vader despite his base instincts to do the right thing.

I'm frankly confused that apparently the Original Trilogy never worked on its own, and needed the addition of the PT in order to make the redemption of Vader in any way viable. The comparison between Kylo's lack of redemptive qualities and Vader's lack of them, from their initial two films, is absolutely apt. Vader's redemption in ROTJ worked despite his apparent lack of any redeeming qualities in the previous films (and it worked without the PT). In the same way Kylo's redemption could absolutely work in IX.

Oh I definitely don't disagree. But just like how Vader got his big redemptive moment in ROTJ, despite not seeming to warrant it in ANH or TESB, I don't think Kylo is precluded from having one.

 

would be surprised if they succeed in making his fall worthwhile. I mean he's already in Snoke's grasp when the showdown between him and Luke happens in the past. And then proceeds to murder some of his "classmates". He also yaps about he wants to murder Luke, how Han Solo is a disappointment (wonder if lack of force senstivity is a reason for that).

now seems like he's still a villain for most of IX.

I've seen speculation to make him some Snape like character. I mean really?

 

Any comparison to Vader should include discussion that 1) Vader has to die to make it work and 2) the gffa still sees Vader's legacy as evil. If those two things happen for Kylo, I can buy his "redemption." If one of those is missing*, I don't see how it can work.

*Possibly some form of punishment could stand in for death. Possibly. I don't think just exile or prison would work, he'd have to lose all force powers imo.


And I know it's been said alot, but seriously, NOT killing your mom is about the lowest bar for "good" possible, especially when you already killed your dad.

 

I saw that scene once - oh, wait, and I've seen it a billion times in GIFs because all the Kylostans LOVE that scene and the "microexpressions" that I'm supposed to see. All I see is a blank face. If he's so remorseful - he's a Force user - he can heal his father, hell, he could at least not THANK HIM and throw him off a gantry. But please tell me more about Kylo's regret and remorse.

He hesitated to kill Leia for a nanosecond but when his wingmen did it, he didn't have a problem. He didn't have a problem that Starkiller Base was aimed towards his mother, now did he? He didn't have a problem killing his fellow students or tripping off to join the fascist First Order. Or standing by while they blew up five planets, just like his mother's planet was destroyed.

Yes, Vader killed more people but hey, that's the difference between 20 years of competence and 6 years of incompetence.

Not for me and I was there for the original trilogy. The only way I cared about Vader's redemption was that Luke didn't have to kill his father. I frankly thought it was nuts sitting in ROTJ opening day. But I could at least sell it as well, Luke didn't have to kill him.

What's my equivalent in TROS? Han's dead, Luke's dead, Leia will more than likely be dead due to circumstances beyond their control but it's not like she went out and tried to redeem Kylo the last two times either. His family is gone. All that's left is Rey - the woman he tortured, the woman whose friends he maimed, murdered, tortured and tried to kill - and she has no family ties, at least at this point, to make her want to save Kylo. That's the fallacy.

See also the great posts above from @DarkGingerJedi and @anakinfansince1983 I too am tired of being shouted at by the narrative and the Kylostans about Poor Darth Emo the Soft Boy Villain and how if I love Luke, Han and Leia, I'm supposed to want their murderer redeemed.

 

Well at least you're consistent.

I have also posted consistently with similar complaints and I am in no way a 'Kylostan'.

 

The thing about Vader's redemption was I think GL meant it on a micro level. Luke's selfless, compassionate love for his father Anakin allowed Vader to find the compassion within himself to save his son and to realize that even after years of darkness, he could still make the choice to act selflessly. The redemption hinges on their family connection, and GL talked alot about that. Vader's redemption is in the eyes of his son, not the gffa, and I was so glad to see that represented in canon. WE don't have to forgive Vader (I never have either, one good deed does not make up for every bad choice he made), because Luke did.

Han already tried to redeem Kylo, and that didn't go very well for him. Rey already tried to redeem Kylo, and that didn't go very well for her. Heck, Kylo could've responded differently when he saw Luke, but he tried to kill him (excessively). So that leaves Leia, or maybe FG Anakin.

 

I think Kylo will die trying to save Rey. I would be okay with that if it was handled correctly.

 

But that goes back to the whole issue of motivation. Why? He wouldn't even not-die for his dad. We're supposed to believe he met this girl for a few days and even though he spent the entire time doing bad stuff to her, he has a crush so he's willing to die for her?