main
side
curve

ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Sforza, Dec 13, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    [​IMG]

    My meta narrative for Reylo.

    :p
     
  2. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2018
    Idk how to post a screenshot from the video of this scene, but gee, I wonder what happens next? Sooo hot.[​IMG]
     
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I think Rian's quote supports the fact that he intended the finger scene with Rey and Kylo to be seen in a sexual or romantic light. That doesn't mean every viewer has to perceive it in that light though in my opinion to me that also means that the people who interpret the scene as Rian intended aren't crazy or seeing things in the film that the director didn't put there even if they don't want to see things but can't help seeing them.

    Nor would I agree with the notion that it was the first love scene in Star Wars (I felt we got plenty of love scenes in both the Originals and Prequels.) I'm also not convinced it was the "closest thing to a sex scene" that we've seen in Star Wars since for instance we had a scene where Padme and Anakin were sleeping in the same bed.
     
  4. Aximili86

    Aximili86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Where's the romance indication in TLJ though, Mariel?

    Seems just intrigue over the force-link thing, combined with Rey both trying to understand why in the monkey-hell he killed Han, and trying to gauge whether Leia's right in thinking he can be turned back. Which she eventually comes around to agreeing with mid-movie.

    I honestly think half of this interpretation of actual romance just comes down to the fact there's a Ben shirtless scene. In which...yeah, Rey immediately tells him to put a shirt on. Haha. The rest of it's just trying to figure each other out, and why they seem to be entwined in a force destiny sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  5. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Reylo in a nutshell [face_laugh]

    If we wait a few pages, someone will post a picture of Kylo staring at Rey with the blank, disinterested stare of a serial killer, only it will be posted as proof of romance. Rey may or may not be shackled in said image... but probably is.
     
  6. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    At least you’re wondering.

    I feel that folks who argue that TLJ deliberately raised key questions about Rey and Kylo and left other stuff ambiguous are just accused of not grasping “the obvious” or wanting to be “spoon fed” answers they should be able to easily deduce.
     
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Clearly a friend zone handshake. See how the fingers are pointed downward? It indicates that she actually likes Kylo Ren
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  8. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    [face_laugh]

    Right? Oh that damn symbolism again!
     
  9. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
  10. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    To actually breakdown some more of the things that I think had potential in TLJ’s take on the idea, things that I think do have value and should have been used to build a good relationship in TLJ, and to explain the flaws that I think poisoned it, and what things I think are needed going forward, period, here’s a little list:

    + The Force Skype: I actually really like this idea and think it was close to being used correctly. Having the hero and villain forced into a kind of metaphysical contact *can* be used to create a fascinating relationship between them...
    + The Hand Touch: As a concept, this is a very strong idea, emphasizing an emotional connection over a physical one. It just needs to follow smoothly from a well written relationship first...
    + The Actors: Just in terms of bare essentials, Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley *should* be able to act well in a romance arc... provided you figure out what chemistry their going with and give them the right material...

    - Neglect of Rey’s perspective and Kylo’s crimes: this was the biggest and most serious issue in TLJ. To build a solid, believable relationship between two he two, whether platonic or not, it needed to address what Kylo had done and why Rey could see another side of him. It did neither, and simply presumed Kylo was already sympathetic/attractive enough for a relationship with Rey, who the film simply couldn’t grasp from her TFA portrayal.
    - Imbalanced Acting Resposnisbilities: Johnson also made the mistake of saddling the character with the least reason to pursue the relationship with most of the work to sell it - he played up Kylo’s introverted nature and thus Driver had to conceal emotions and desires for most of the film, while poor Ridley was left trying to sell an emotional reaction that comes from nowhere.

    What it needs going forward:
    * Actual Understanding and explanation for the characters: we (and Rey) need to understand why Kylo is the way he is, and Kylo needs to see Rey as the virtuous heroine she is. Regardless of whatever the plan is going forward, whether it just antagonistic or something more benevolent, we can’t again see these characters just bashed together without explanation.
     
  11. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Ah, Rey and Kylo's romantic meeting in the woods, where the "Princess" is frozen, threatened with a lightsaber right next to her face, knocked out, and Bridal Carried (TM) away by her "Prince".
     
  12. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    If only the crew stopped comparing Kylo to a dark/prince and TFA as a fairytale maybe people wouldn't make such a big deal about it. (Personally, I found "dark prince" has a better ring to it, very melodramatic).

    “And this moment where she is about to, for the first time, be confronted by Kylo Ren - a character who she’s going to have a very interesting relationship with, going forward.”

    This is after he read TLJ's script so he knew where things were going for those two characters. He didn't seem repulsed by it judging by this comment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  13. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Interesting is about as ambiguous as you can get. I could replace almost any name in the saga upon their first meeting with Kylo and Rey here and the sentence would still work perfectly... Luke and Darth Vader, Anakin and Qui Gon Jinn, Luke and Leia, Luke and Han, Han and Leia, Anakin and Palpatine.
     
  14. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    All of those relationships are interesting, indeed. The question is what did make Rey and Kylo's dynamic in TLJ interesting in JJ's eyes, which is the context of that quote, and what does this mean for episode IX now that he came back to wrap things up?
     
  15. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Interesting obviously means sexual. It's the only possibility.
     
  16. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    "Interesting relationship" = abducted, tortured, mind-raped, manipulated, frozen, held against her will, turned into a play thing to test Kylo's dark side resolve, forced into intimate contact by the writers, personal boundaries not cared for, and devalued as a person.

    Yeah....sure.
     
  17. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    I'm going with the assumption that he is referring to his own movie there, not a movie that he had not even seen yet.
     
  18. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    The sad thing is that there’s plenty of symbolism in the ST but
    Why? I see him as a “dark prince” of sorts. I see SW as a fairytale if sorts. Yet I don’t see romance. Because “evil man of privilege” =/= “love interest” and “fairy” =/= “romance.”

    Raise your hand if you heard Vader called a “dark lord” in canon and concluded he’ll be romantically paired with Luke (or anyone, for that manner).

    “Interesting” =/= “romance.” This kind of conflation just opens the ship up to mockery, frankly.

    Not repulsed, no. But it’s not romance so I don’t see why he would be.
     
  19. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I'm open to every possibility so long as it makes sense to me (that includes romance) and that the movie is entertaining. And if I end up rooting for them, that's only a bonus.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  20. Darth Buzz

    Darth Buzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    This!! Well said!!! Having an open mind makes things much more enjoyable than going in looking for critiques.
     
  21. Darth Corydon

    Darth Corydon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Black cat & Cat woman have transcended their that role thou ..... Selina Kyle is going to be officially bruce's wife
    Hence the Batman/Catwoman book starting in January 2020 [​IMG]

    black cat has been the kingpin Crime boss (who was worst then Fisk) of Marvel's New York since Otto (in Peter's body ) during superior Spiderman decked her and ruined peter's relationship with her almost 10 years ago . its just recently that Peter and black cat have started to be friends again (thou Peter is with MJ currently ) . theres also rumours that Black cat will become carnage once Cletus awakens Knull and becomes its Host. so the troupe with both examples are broken currently
     
  22. unicorn

    unicorn Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Kylo Ren whining about how he had the hardest life of all because his parents had jobs vs. Rey who was literally abandoned and left to fend for herself since the age of 5 or Finn who was kidnapped as a child and raised without any love or affection is the height of white male privilege.

    This guy reminds me of a RL Kylo Ren: https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/us/nyc-princeton-grad-murder-trial/index.html

    Princeton grad killed father over allowance, prosecutors say.


    Once part of Manhattan's social elite, a 30-year-old Princeton graduate lived off his parents, prosecutors say, spending his time surfing in the Hamptons -- until he killed his father over a cut to his weekly allowance.

    "It wasn't until the dad started cutting off his money that the defendant decided to kill him," said Craig Ortner, an assistant district attorney with the Manhattan district attorney's office. "Literally hours before he was killed, (his father) further cut his allowance to $300."


    If you look at Rian's other work this isn't a surprise. His previous works usually centre around white male pain. I think he look at Kylo and saw who he views as a natural protaganist being white and male as opposed to Rey (a woman) or Finn (a POC).
     
  23. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Well that is what I meant, but a much more elegant way of saying it ;). Anakin's bliss, for instance, was to be a hero and destroy the Sith, but he stopped following it when he fell to the dark side. Predestination can't be a thing because Anakin could have never returned to his bliss.
     
  24. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    That actually kind of builds to my point about why TLJ was a bad example of Reylo fiction: the comic characters have a scale of just how evil they are and just how seriously the relationship with the hero is, with the more sincerely bloodthirsty a character is, generally the less seriously the romance option is considered. It was recognized that the virtuous hero/heroine can’t be in a serious relationship with an open sociopath or fascist, etc.

    Earth 2 Catwoman’s death trap days were well behind her in the Silver Age when they had her marry Batman, and part of the doubt they threw on Rebirth Batman and Catwoman getting married was her framing herself for over a hundred murders - and once the murders were cleared, that’s when the BatCat marriage became a possibility.

    Cheshire and Arsenal’s relationship was pretty much universally portrayed as a toxic assignation without real love... until you get to the Young Justice cartoon, where she was modified from a terrorist who *nuked* a country to an unsuccessful if skilled assassin and eventual anti-villain and de facto Team ally, so now their relationship is a serious high point of the series people are invested in.

    Lynx was initially pretty strictly just a bad guy, with her initial flirtation with Robin being a red herring before her evil was revealed. Then the first Lynx (who had totally killed people) was killed herself, and her replacement went from a gang leader to a HKPD undercover cop when FabNic wanted to tease a romance there.

    Black Cat’s turn as a Marvel Queenpin (because Catwoman did it first at DC) was also taken as a sign that romance with any Spider-Man at the time was off the table - she’d gone too evil to be the “good bad girl” at that point. Something similar can be seen with Talia, whose outright evil ticked up a few notches once Morrison decided to make her the no longer romantically attached Ex-From-Hell to drive Damian to Bruce.

    The reason TLJ sucks as a Reylo story, and the reason it poisoned the idea going forward, is because in the much more abbreviated, you-only-get-one-shot film world, TLJ broke the cardinal rule about making the villain and hero attracted to each other: addressing the villains evil to accommodate the hero’s virtuous nature, and to make the attraction make sense. TLJ ignored Kylo’s crimes’ effect on Rey even while reciting them, and refused to explain how she could be attracted to a horrific human being, because the film just couldn’t wrap its head around Kylo’s real nature. And unlike comics, where the sheer volume of material and frequent retcons mean you just have to wait to change things, the Sequel Trilogy has such limited time that TROS can’t use Reylo without reminding people that TLJ founded it on bad, sexist writing that damaged both characters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  25. harlequinn823

    harlequinn823 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    A Rey and Finn romance would also be romance though. In theory, that would also "attract more women." But that's never an argument when it comes to Finnrey.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.