Saga Luke Skywalker complete turnaround

Vader was thought to be irredeemable, he was thought to be more machine than man. Luke was the only one, who who saw the good in Vader.

Now we fast forward to TLJ, where he senses some evil in Kylo Ren and tries to kill him. Mind you Kylo was never pure evil, they ( Snoke, Leia and Rey) sensed some good in Kylo, I am sure Luke could to.

Why do you think Luke, completely changed his ideology ?

 

I will take a stab at it, although I should say this is by no means a correct answer. This is just my guess/interpretation.

I believe even though Luke was a Jedi Knight in ROTJ, he was still a bit naive. Being naive ended up helping him when it came to facing Vader/Palpatine. He was still a young Jedi, and didn't have a full grasp of the situation in front of him. There is a reason that both Obi-Wan and Yoda told him he wasn't ready. Luke was going off instinct that Vader would turn, which was the right choice.

As Luke aged and became a Jedi Master, he began to realize all of the shortcomings and failures the Jedi Order had been apart of. The Jedi were overconfident and short sighted, which resulted in:
-The Sith making there return
-Assisted in the formation of Darth Vader
-The Empire being born

These events probably make Luke second guess whether the Jedi were truly doing what was right, and if it was something that he even wanted to continue. When he see's Ben Solo starting to go down the wrong path, it results in a slight lapse of judgement. Luke did not want to see the galaxy go down that path again, and this time it would be on his watch. Ben Solo turned, and Luke saw himself as a failure, just a the Jedi had been before.

Luke is a Jedi Master so he probably knows that with Kylo that he is not the person that can turn him, just as he said in TLJ.

 

I do understand realizing the mistakes of the Jedi, but by him trying to kill Kylo, Luke pushed him to the Darkside. Luke didn't push Kylo Ren to the Darkside, by repeating Jedi mistakes, the Jedi didn't believe in killing people in their sleep.

I would think Luke experiencing the redemption of his father, he would have hope to turn Kylo away from the Darkside, especially before he's fully engulfed in it's power.


I do like your theory, there is no 100% right answer. I just hope we get a more in depth, in Universe explanation

 

Luke never tried to kill Kylo. He didnt do the act of trying. He just...for a second...thought about the deed and was ashamed with himself a second later. Thats totally fair and human! IF he had not only thought but did the deed it would have been something else. But considering what you are about to do and choose not to do it is for me at least in the end a sign of maturity, wisdom.

Its what makes HIM a Jedi Master! Even Mace Windu, one of the most powerfull dogmatic jedi of the Old Republic Jedi and second only to Yoda was about to kill a powerfull Dark Side User beside not beeing the Jedi Way...

I really dont get the whole buzz about that scene. Its perfectly fine and in line of what Luke would do. He experience war, fighting, suffering through his youth and didnt want that to happen if he COULD prevent it. So there came is brief and selfashaming thought of killing Ben. But as soon as thinking of it the thought accured to be wrong. Thats a strong character to me!

 

First of, I don't think Luke turned really evil or dark in any way. But I also don't think that you're free of any dark side stuff only because you withstand it once before. For me the dark side is like a never-ending struggle and you can basically still turn on your death bed.

And I never thought Luke pulling his lightsaber was a dark thing in itself. That was just a reaction to the things he saw/felt. What - for me - was the dark thing was Luke invading Kylo's head. Kylo's reaction to this was pretty typical, but one that made him lose trust in his teacher and therefor stood for his falling.
Somehow, for me, that scene can be compared to Anakin's visions/dreams. Anakin always feared loosing the ones he loved, Luke feared to lose his student by his (Luke's) premonitions coming true. So when Luke invaded Kylo's head he pushed it forward and turned premonitions in reality because of betraying the trust of his student.

And I don't think Luke has even the right to turn Kylo back. I don't think it can be done by people who were there during ones fall. This would be too easy. I mean, when you lose your grip in real life, get betrayed, beaten or whatever by person or group X, you often need complete different and not involved people to help you find your way back. If the one who is accountable for a force users turn could help you find your way back, it has the same taste like a violent partner who tells you that he'll never beat you up again when you come back.

Sometimes the people most involved have to step back. Like Kanan in Rebels who stepped back from planning the rescue mission of his wife/mother of his child because he knew he would be too involved. Luke's success in bringing Vader back was because he had absolutely no fault in whatever happened to Anakin/Vader in his life. He couldn't even be considered a real Jedi because of his upbringing. Luke was innocent and knew nothing then. Luke in Kylo's case had lost this innocence - so whoever might help Kylo has to be someone with no direct involvement in Kylo's past.

 

Yeah I don't think that Luke changed his 'ideology'. His reaction was an instinctual reaction to prevent death and suffering towards those who he cared about, after which he realised his mistake. If Ben's fall has occurred differently then Luke would have likely worked for his redemption - a redemption that he likely still believes in given the end of TLJ.

 

I agree with most of your points, the Darkside is something you fight against daily. I definitely enjoyed the comparison to Anakin's visions, in trying to stop tragedy, he wound up creating the events he tried to prevent


You're right he didn't go through with the full action, but looking over your sleeping nephew, while lighting your Saber with the intent to kill, is hardly innocent. I don't think Luke turned evil, but he does bare the responsibility of his mistakes. There's a reason he felt ashamed, it was wrong.


You can compare that intent to Sidious killing Plagueis. we don't know if this part of StarWars will be cannon, but it hasn't been ruled out.


As far as the Ideology, it's about believing in Redemption. Vader committed worse atrocities and was deep in the Darside, but Luke believed he could be saved. Luke contemplating killing Kylo, before he has committed such atrocities, shows a change in Luke's ideology. When Luke spoke to Leia in the cave, he pretty much said, there's no saving Kylo. Everyone can sense the conflict in Kylo and he didn't kill Leia, when he had the chance.

I am not saying, it's Luke's responsibility to redeem Kylo.


Thank you all, I appreciate your insight and points of view. Hopefully we'll get some more opinions.

 

No one said that Luke wasn't wrong.

The 'jump scare' of what he saw is an important element.

He said that he couldn't save Kylo. He also said no one is really gone.

 

What do you mean by redemption?

For me Luke never really thought about Vader in these terms. Thinking about it would have meant that Luke has had any plans after "getting Anakin back" and killing the Emperor. I don't think that he thought that far. I believe Luke made one step at a time, survived his fight with Vader, got attacked by Sidious, with that got Anakin out of his vaderish hiding hole and acting. I doubt Luke had any plans for what might have happened if Anakin wouldn't have died.
Luke was naive. Yes, exactly that helped the galaxy, but in the end it would have helped Anakin. The only possible redemption was in the force, there was never a redemption in the eyes of the galaxy.

And now to Kylo. Luke is not the naive boy anymore and he of all people know that Leia never forgave Vader. After what Kylo has done the only thing that is possible is, that he redeem himself in the ways of the force. Like Vader if he would have survived, Kylo could only be locked away permanently and in a way which prevents him from using the force ever.

Actually Kylo already has done worse than Anakin/Vader. He started to follow and lead a regime that was built outside the system and grounded on a regime that was proven to be horrible, while Anakin/Vader lived in and followed the turning of a system into that regime. It is the same as with civilians in the beginning of Nazi Germany compared to people who turn a blind eye on racism today. I would judge everyone who would follow and start something like this today way harder than I judge the simple civilians back than. While they could not know what would happen, modern followers know it quite well. And that makes their deeds - just like Kylo's - worse than the deeds of the first.

 

Redeemed his soul, he was redeemed by the people that mattered. He did turn to the light and didn't die in Evil.


At the moment Luke was considered Kylo in his sleep, he wasn't in the same league as Vader. It was Luke, that lead Kylo into this life of evil. Why do you think Luke felt so guilty ?


Kylo wasn't a stone cold killer then, Vader was a dangerous killer, as soon as he became a Sith

 

OK, so you define redemption different than I. For me Anakin was only redeemed in the eyes of the force, maybe also in Luke's. And I don't think that Luke was the one who mattered for redemption. That's again a force-thing. For the galaxy as a whole Vader died after one single good deed, but that doesn't help years of suffering. To say that Anakin was truly redeemed you'll have to say a serial killer or slaver is redeemed because he lets one victim go.

But you're right, I messed up with the time. When Luke acted, Kylo wasn't as evil or not evil at all. He would be now, though.

On the other hand Kylo was exactly the same as Vader by the time he attacked the temple. In this case you could also argue that Vader "obeyed the command" as he was ordered to kill by the leading fraction. When Kylo attacked he did it on his own. In my eyes that makes him more dangerous.

And I think that is a problem with Kylo and the ST (I like the ST well enough, just saying) and as well with the PT. We learned in the OT that the empire is bad, Vader is bad but later redeemed. Then came the PT where the Jedi weren't just Jedi but military officers/generals. So you could argue that Anakin went against the believes of the Jedi but stayed true to his military leaders. In fact, when he turned he obeyed the orders of the Empire's uppermost leader who's just the Republic's leader.

On the other hand is Kylo. When he turned and killed the Jedi, he wasn't and couldn't obey the command of any leader as the New Republic was never the First Order. That is why I think his deeds are worse than Vader's. Anakin/Vader followed the orders of the leading system, Kylo did it himself or followed the will of the rebelling system's leader.

I'm not talking about the moment Luke stood over Kylo, ready to strike. I'm only talking about the actions afterwards. I don't see any possibility to redeem a person who pushed a galaxy into war and destroyed a whole star system. Kylo might kill Palpatine singlehandly and thus might be redeemed by the force, but for all those people who lost someone he would never be redeemed.

 

In my headcanon, Luke did not stand over sleeping Kylo with a lit saber. The thought of killing flashed through his mind in a moment of weakness, and what we saw onscreen was what Luke was thinking, not doing. Kylo woke at that moment and in an instant Force vision he saw what Luke was thinking, and Kylo assumed that Luke was actually going to turn that momentary thought into action. And that's the moment their fight began.

I find that interpretation is a better fit to Luke's character than a more literal interpretation. I don't know how the scene could have been filmed to show my version and make it clear what was happening; that would be pretty complicated stuff for a SW movie.

 

Anakin was redeemed in the eyes of the Jedi Order as well, since Luke was the only member at the end of ROTJ. He was standing next to the Force Ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan, fulfilling his destiny and going on as a cautionary tale for future Jedi.

I also feel that the Jedi, see Vader as an entirely different person. Anakin had done many great deeds as a Jedi, before he became Darth Vader.


I also could understand turning against a Jedi Order, after the GrandMaster tried to kill you ( through his eyes it seemed that way. Kylo also had no allegiance to the government, as Luke kept the Jedi Order away from Political factions. Kylo acted in what he believed to be self defense and acted in the rage of emotional betrayal. After Luke tried to kill Kylo in his sleep ( from his point of view), Kylo had nowhere else to go.

Anakin knew Palpatine manipulated and constructed the fall of the Republic and transformed it to an evil government of tyranny. Anakin was beloved by the people and their officials, betrayed the government and Order that rescued him from slavery. He went to the Jedi Temple with the plan to kill the jedi and even wanted to kill the younglings personally. I do agree, both Vader and Kylo are both evil, but to what degree of evil is where we disagree

 

I don't want to see the Force=Jedi. That, for me, are two different things. I don't really believe that any Jedi, alive or not, could prevent the Force from deciding something. See Anakin's ghost. He was allowed to the afterlife but surely not because Obi-Wan or Yoda spoke their verdict.

Kylo was pushed to it, but for me it is worse because he not just turned and built his own thing but went to people who already had the military stuff in their backs. He was no child anymore. I would accept a 15-year old to turn to the first thing available, but not someone in his 20th.

Anakin knew it, but I firmly believe that Anakin was also manipulated by Palpatine. That and his brain has gotten awry somewhere. In one thing you're wrong. The order did not saved Anakin from slavery. That was Anakin alone. He won the race to help and therefore got free. Without the race and Anakin Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Padmé could have founded shared quarters among sand dunes.

The thing is, we don't know anything about Kylo. We've observed Anakin's history from childhood on, all that we know about Kylo are snippets. We have no real clue about Snoke and Palpatine-after-death. That makes it hard to really see behind Kylo's actions. I think it is sad and I hope this will chance someday, because I find it totally interesting and fascination to look behind someones actions or motivations. Only without any further knowledge that is just a speculation.
I mean, maybe Kylo has had knowledge about a superweapon on Hosnian prime that would have destroyed everything? Maybe in that system was a ready-to-go-depot of a virus? (Just for baseless speculation that would change our perception of him)

 

I really like where you went, with your HEADCANNON. It definitely fits Luke's character more, as opposed to tge literal interpretation the TLJ went with.

Yes it ( Your HeadCannon ) would be too complicated to do in just 1 film, but could be done perfectly in a 2 Films with the right director.

I don't we're going to agree on much, but you make 2 excellent points.
1. We don't know much about Kylo's past.
2. Everything you said about Force Ghosts


I actually wonder, can Force Ghosts see each other ?
Did Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin know, they were all there together ?

Can Force Ghosts Communicate with each other ?

Can Force Ghosts physically interact with each other ?

 

@Master Endz-One no problem there would be no discussions at all if we agree about everything. ;-) I think different ideas, opinions and headcanons make a fandom great as you have to think about other people's Stands.

I don't know about the ghosts. Honestly they probably get drunk together because the living people never learn?
Actually we know nothing. Like if the ghosts are there all the time or not, if they have contact with the living? Did Luke have a talk with Obi-Wan, Yoda and his father and has felled his decisions to go to exile/ending of the Jedi after that? Or was Anakin even with Kylo and talked with him?
When I think about it these are things I want to know.

 

All questions I would like Disney to expand upon.

I like a good debate myself, sometimes we learn from it

 

I'm pretty sure that Luke didn't talk with any old Jedi about the matter. That's where Yoda's appearance in TLJ comes into play. If they had already talked before, that appearance wouldn't really have been needed. But he cut himself off from the force, thus likely preventing the ghosts from appearing to him, and only when he reconnected to it did Yoda appear to remind him of what he basically already knew.

The specific quotes in that scene also suggest that they hadn't spoken each other in a long time, and that he definately didn't float that idea to any of them. Else he would have told Yoda something he already told him before, which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in that context.

 

See, that's the actual problem. That's why him being the way he is is laughable.

 

Didn't the scene only make clear that Yoda never spoke with Luke? Sorry if I mix it up, it's been a while since I watched TLJ.

And there still is the question what the ghosts can do or not. Or simply, if they are around all the time and watch without doing anything. Or if Anakin did anything.

 

It only seems to imply that they haven't spoken since the fall of Luke's Temple.

 

It's a parallel between Obi-wan, who believed that Anakin was well and truly gone, when he drew his saber to fight him on Mustafar. Luke, likewise, draws his saber after sensing that Ben was well and truly gone. The difference is that Luke remembered that what he was feeling was not the Jedi way and that he could probably make the effort to save him, but then Ben wakes up and doesn't give him a chance.

As to Yoda, Luke probably didn't talk much to him or his father Obi-wan, because a lot of what he was doing, was meant for him to do on his own. They had probably pointed him in a few directions, here and there, but the bulk of his training his student was all up to Luke. To succeed or fail, in his own right and on his own. When he failed to stop Ben from turning, Luke cut himself off before they could make contact and thus had to wait until he decided to reconnect.

 

I don't know whether, as depicted, Luke really had time to consider whether or not Ben was 'gone'. It more seemed like an instinctual reaction to preventing death and destruction.

 

We don't know how long Luke stood there reading his thoughts and finding out how screwed up he was.

 

The way I understood it, is that Yoda hadn't spoken with Luke since he shut himself off from the Force-which makes sense he wouldn't see Yoda. I'm assuming that had been the case since the destruction of his temple. So what-about 5 years or so?