ST Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) In Episode IX

From my understanding, it seems to have originally been a GL concept. During the “12 part saga” phase of development,” Luke died at the end of 9 and returned in 4th trilogy in some capacity, if memory serves.

It’s a generational saga.

 

Correct, Luke's entire TLJ arc (minus his death) was straight from the Lucas treatments. The biggest differences that we know of are that we would've seen him sooner in TFA and we wouldn't have died until TROS.

 

Well, he died before the end in the 12-part version, so I think him dying in TLJ lines up with what GL intended.

 

We know this how? Lucas said point blank that they weren't using his treatments and they've never been published.

 

Yeah, I highly doubt Lucas would have written the milking scene, the comical saber toss scene or Luke reading the mind of his sleeping nephew and feeling compelled to whack him scene and so on.

Even Luke being in exile and training one student already and the betrayal of the "Jedi killer" not because Luke's stupid actions one night changes things so considerably, you can not call it "the exact same arc".

 

Because of what he and other TPTB have said. See also: the artbooks.

 

Yes, and Lucas said on camera to Charlie Rose on 60 Minutes - "they didn't use my treatments." So, do I believe that or interested parties saying that they used things? Which, IIRC, didn't start being said until after TLJ came out and there was an outcry on what was done with Luke. (unfortunately, I can't find a good clip of the Church Lady saying "how convenient")

Also, if we go by the treatments, where Lucas started and where he ended up are dramatically different in the previous films.

 

Lucas/Arndt's draft and whole concept started with the idea that Luke is away at the beginning of 7, but EARLY ON in 7 he meets Kira/Rey character and together they go on an adventure. She helps bring him out of his depressed hermit state around the end of Act 1/Beginning of Act 2, and then it's basically a two-hander the rest of the movie. This is why it is said that the early attempts at the story ran into difficulty in making Kira/Rey the star hero when she's right next to Luke for 80% of the movie and he of course overshadowed her.

This probably would have resulted in a climax where Luke does something heroic at the end of 7, but the baton is essentially passed at that point, and Kira/Rey is the hero of episode 8 with Luke in a scene or two as an Obi-Wan figure in the beginning, and then Luke's big death scene somehow toward the end of 9. Just guessing.

 

Just because they didn’t use his actual treatments doesn’t mean they didn’t take major elements of his story, switching the orders of various plot points. I believe KK herself said that’s what they did.

ETA: Not to mention the fact that *decades ago* Mark himself alluded to Luke being a FG in a SW ST. In other words - GL always planned on Luke dying and returning.

I honestly get the impression that some folk unhappy with the ST are blaming LFL for story decisions GL made a very long time ago.

 

That blame shifting was intentional. After TFA, no one said boo about George being involved, ideas from George, anything, except the early stuff from Ardnt that JJ and Kasdan allegedly pitched.

TLJ opens. Some people are up in arms about what was done to Luke. Suddenly, here comes the artbooks and the articles "oh, this was all George's original idea." George was left in the dust and there were prequel jokes all through that run up and two years between TFA and TLJ but then, if you criticize Luke's storyline, it became "it was all George's idea!"

Go back and look at the pattern of articles. People are upset about the "subversion of expectations"? Here's a week of articles about how Star Wars needed to be burned to the ground and that's a good thing. People are upset about Reylo? Well, here's a week of articles about how "hot" it is and unexpected but what we need right now. People upset about Luke? Oh, here's some stuff from the original treatments that George wrote, so you'd have gotten it no matter what. Honestly, I've had friends tell me about how social media and clickbait sites can push a story but I hadn't seen it in real time until January 2018.

 

There is *plenty* of public pre-TLJ evidence GL has been involved.

I mean...easy example...you know that the TFA artbook came out in December 2015, right....?

 

Yes, and it's an official publication from LFL. As I said, no uninterested narrators. George himself included, and he said before TFA opened that they didn't use anything from him. Since then, he's been quiet but LFL has gone out of its way to say "oh, George this, oh George that," as if him showing up will magically make old fans happy. Here he is on the Solo set. How many times in this thread have we had "well, JJ consulted George for TRoS" when we don't know what "consulted" means in context.

As Han would say, it makes a good story.

 

Mark said we would see Luke on another plane of existense. I have not seen this yet and somehow doubt there is time or room for this in IX, since it is the movie of the new main lead Rey.

hmmm, found that interview and it is a little scary. He said 'another plane of existence or not the same character'. Hmmm, don't know what to think now.....(from 3:40 on)

 

Sounds like you’re saying everything said by anyone connected to LFL must be discounted because by nature of their position, everything they say must be inherently both self-interested and likely twisted.

You including everything RJ has said in this approach?

I just can’t grasp your logic. You seem to be labeling all information stemming from sources best positioned to know the truth as inherently unreliable.

@nightangel

Yes - ”another plane of existence.”

....ie, in SW parlance, a Force ghost.

 

So glad I can post something here and get it torn apart just because people still can't get over a film released almost 2 years ago and decide to cry about it in threads about the next film instead of the actual discussion area for the film that they hated so much they have to constantly whine about it.

Depressed/exile Luke came from the Lucas treatments, period. Be in denial all you want but that has been stated by numerous sources. Lucas said they didn't use his treatments based on the fact that the starting point for his ST was essentially the last third of TFA and parts of TLJ. He made those comments based on the final cut of TFA. Numerous things from the early art and storyboards ended up popping back up in TLJ, including a lot of Lucas stuff. Being in denial doesn't change the fact that Luke's overall arc (including him dying at some point in the ST) came from Lucas and it has been said by numerous people and shown in artwork that was conceived when Lucas was still advising in the early pre-production days of TFA. That's why the art book was such a big deal; because not only did it contain material coming all the way back from the Lucas treatments but some major elements from that book reappeared not only in TLJ but also in some TROS leaks.

And just to make a final point, Lucas absolutely would have had someone milking a giant sea cow and drinking it. The prequels (and even the OT) have little gags like that throughout.

 

Yes. It’s inherently self-interested because it’s not reported by an uninvolved party. Twisted is a value judgement but of course, they’re going to tell the story as they see it and as serves LFL. I wouldn’t expect them to do otherwise. Then again, seeing some of the appalling tweets some of the LFL folks have slung out, maybe I’m giving them too much credit. Certainly many of those would not pass a social media manager’s scrutiny.

My point in all this is that it was convenient that suddenly, all this stuff about Luke was released just as fans were in turmoil and the same powers that be who were happy to consign George to emeritus status turned around and said “George did it!” I find the narrative of all this creation of the ST as much a load of dingoes’ kidneys as the films themselves.

And frankly? I would say it’s just as bad and wrong if George was writing and directing by his lonesome. Oh, wait, it’s been two years, I can only praise TLJ now. My bad.

 

For a doofus like Jar Jar Binks? Sure. He had humiliating and idiotic scenes throughout TPM also.

 

You just reinforced my feeling that Rian Johnson was indeed a SW fan - but a fan of what many SW fans did NOT like about SW - all the juvenile humor from TPM.

 

Absolutely. If you check out some of the deleted scenes from TLJ, it seems very apparent his sense of humour is somewhat on the juvenile side (and I speak as someone who adores UK shows like Bottom! ). I think you can tell a lot about a filmmaker by their humour, and where it’s used in a film. JJs film doesn’t really pretend to be anything other than it is (i.e. pure popcorn escapism) but it’s humour is largely natural and organically rises from the situations and characters. Rian’s often feels forced in, inappropriate to the scene and (often) out of place. And not in a clever way either. My impression is he thinks he's way cleverer than his film(s) actually are. Whilst I’m (to date) not wild about either TFA or TLJ, JJ’s film ‘feels’ way more honest to me and that comes through in the use of humour (timing) too. Interesting topic!

 

For all the "Luke was exiled in the George Lucas treatment" arguments here, it's obvious that there was somethink akin to this since we have actual art approved by GL himself, with the forsaken Jedi temple on "some" planet, and drawings of Luke looking like a samurai. No one can say otherwise, if not Lucas himself.

But, you know what ? Luke looked more like a true jedi master on theses pictures than he ever did in the Last Jedi. We can see a concrete Jedi Temple on this, and not some empty cave with a vague yin and yan symbol on the floor. It's unlikely that Luke was so much depressed as he was most definitely looking for answers in the Force here, just like Obi-wan and Yoda did in the OT (hence the story rhyming GL style). And, if it was his planned arc in episode VII and if he would only have died in episode IX (according to Hamill himself after his latest conversations with GL) then we would had two entire movies with a Jedi master Luke returned and able to fight and transmit actual knowledge. And maybe (dare I say ?) some kind of emotional connection between him and Rey, established in the movies.

Look at what we're reduced to in the TROS trailer. Poor Luke has to speak to Rey as if they had this great relationship as master and apprentice after he died. Too bad we never got a chance to experience it... I guess Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin and even Qui-Gon also trained her during this time. Sounds like a cool movie. I guess we'll just read about this in a book or something...

 

There’s critiquing how Luke’s arc was executed and there’s critiquing, say, the very fact that he died, or that his temple was destroyed, etc.

Which I’ve seen a lot of since TLJ.

And you’re criticizing RoS for something the trailer suggests but you assume the movie will not carry through on...

 

I wouldn’t even say “tolerated.”

One can dislike a creative decision even if GL himself made it - see also, the PT! - but if so, the criticism should be directed at him, not at folk who were using his ideas.

I believe that the reasons behind his exile and relationship to the protagonist are, essentially, the same.

Lucas may have enlightened us re the backstory earlier on, but I think LFL initially planned to as well, prior to the change-up RJ brought to the table.

Source?

And remember that though RJ’s draft shook things up, the backstory remained the same. That is key.

As someone who has spent a lot of time analyzing TLJ (which I do not enjoy as a viewing experience) and the ST in the context of the canon (a pursuit that doesn’t seem to be very popular in fandom), I postulate that JJ is very, very well-aware of what TLJ did, and that his promise to “honor what TLJ did” is not only compatible with a good end to Luke’s story but a prerequisite of same.

 

I'm pretty sure what happened with Lucas was his original ST treatment had Luke enter towards the end of Act I like Obi Wan did. But for some reason Arndt couldn't make that work. They said once Luke showed up, all anyone cared about was him. So while Lucas was still on board, they made the change to have Luke be the MacGuffin and show up at the end. Then after that, Lucas walked away when it was obvious they didn't want to do what he wanted. While we don't know much, it appeared to me the main point of contention was whether the movie would be retro in nature, which Lucas was adamant he didn't want. He explained that in his movies he was always making sure each movie was its own movie, with its own aesthetics. New ships and planets, etc. Anther point of contention was whether both lead characters would be the children of Han and Leia. Lucas' version clearly was about the Solo kids. They both started as good, and the boy went bad at the end of 7. When Lucas left, he complained to the press about the retro feel of TFA, and also that Star Wars was supposed to be about three generations of a family. He also ribbed JJ in a video asking what happened to Vader's grandchildren.

As for whether Luke always died in Lucas' 12 part trilogy (or whatever), I'm fairly certain it was never a 12 part story. Lucas said the story was nine parts, with three tangential movies. One of those movies would have been about the Wookies. I know it sounds weird, but that's what he's said. I don't have the quotes, but I am certain. Maybe someone else does.