ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

This movie already has enough to accomplish in a finite amount of time, I really hope they don't waste any trying to say "Look, we know he called all these other people, but it's really not his fault that these specific people are dead. They made fun of him!"
Yeah, not seeing how that would help anything.

 

yeah Rodolph the red nosed raindeer expeienced Schhol bullying and look how he turned out.

 

Translation?

 

I don't really get why there is such effort put into white-washing Kylo's behavior if he is going to get redeemed anyway. The only thing I can figure is that people must realize how ridiculous it would be for Rey to hook up with the school shooter, village killing, father stabbing, fascist dictator, even after redemption.

 

Nailed it! The mental gymnastics involved in trying to make a completely unpalatable meal (reylo) look edible (not toxic) are complicated enough, but when you try to make it look delicious (romantic), you really have to flip the entire world upside down and tell people it's rightside up.

 

It’s less that for us (see above), because for fans of the fantasy world and its drama as currently presented, we obviously aren’t as sensitive to what many of you are and aren’t as put off by those same details or real world concerns as you are. There have been Death and the Maiden tropes for centuries because a lot of people separate fiction from real life on purpose and enjoy the fantasy of it all.

It’s more that we realize there are sensitive viewers who can’t come along for the adventure and feel that handling some of these issues differently might make it easier for some others on the fence to come along for the ride while also giving us more in-film specifics (beyond EU offerings) to cite when these topics come up again at some point in the future.

 

Now I'm convinced you just come here to troll. We're just sensitive and can't handle the ride?!?

 

If something bothers someone in fiction than they’re sensitive to that thing that bothers them. Please don’t get hung up on the word sensitive as an insult. It’s an adjective here in conjunction to those who aren’t sensitive to the same things. Or don’t find them as offensive.

On disclaimers for TV shows they literally say content may be concerning for sensitive viewers and viewer discretion advised.

 

Yeah...but it's not the best word to use. I think it is really unfair and wrong to say that some people are too sensitive and therefore can't enjoy the ride. It also gives the implication that those people who are too sensitive ruin it for other people who are less sensitive.

We're all fans here and regardless of supposed sensitivity, we have a right to share our opinion if we think something is problematic. It probably wasn't meant to sound that way, but it comes dangerously close to pejorative and condescending.

 

My hope is that if Kylo is indeed redeemed, he does something that many of his fans can't do and acknowledges his failures and crimes. That's what redemption is about. A Ben redemption needs to be this: "I was wrong to kidnap and torture Rey; to kill my felllow students; to kill my father. He was a good man who loved me and and didn't deserve that. I cost an innocent village their lives. I destroyed the lives of millions of people. I destroyed my mother's life work." Will Kylo fans finally be willing to acknowledge that he is responsible if they hear it straight from the horse's mouth, or will it still be the blame game on everyone else? Can you imagine if Luke took the mask off Vader, and the first words out of his mouth were, "but they murdered my mom!"

 

I think what you propose, though, is the approach that would end up severely off-putting to the viewers you want to bring along. The more you try to shove a character or a ship down viewer`s throats, the more likely it will backfire. It`s like a shipper trying to get you into their ship by pushing a dozen fanfics on you. That will not work. Either you ship a ship naturally, just from seeing the story or you`re obviously not into it.

I`m fairly easy to get onboard with shipping and I can switch around or multi-ship - I shipped both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike in the show - but on the other hand I had to sit through two Seasons of the schmoopiest star-crossed lovers shtick with Stefan/Elena on Vampire Diaries and was into nopes-ville. I actually did like them more when they had scenes like him literally forcing his blood down her throat and threatening to drive her off the same bridge where her parents died in a car accident, just to blackmail his enemy. At least that was interesting. Meanwhile I did ship her with his brother who did fun stuff like killing her brother in front of her, out of a spit-y temper tantrum. Because he wasn`t always temper-tantruming. He had an adult side. He owned up to his own responsibilities. Stefan refered to his evil self in the third person as "the other guy". Urgh.

Yes, that show had the assortment of probably the most selfish, horrible people in existance that were still leads heroes/heroines you were supposed to root for. Other than perhaps its own spin-off show. Dark and twisted is not my problem. Doesn`t mean I automatically ship any ship that has "dark and twisted" in it. I could not ship Kylo with anyone unless he actually grew up already. He is such a toddler all the time right now and every "solution" to make him better I see proposed is about making him more into a toddler. Anakin in AOTC had his whiny teenage side but he wasn`t in toddler-ville 24/7.

 

I didn’t say “too sensitive” anywhere there. I take issue to that claim. My wife is sensitive to some situations in entertainment. She could not watch Game of Thrones at all for example. There were a ton of situations she was sensitive toward where I was not.

There is no “too sensitive” or “not sensitive enough” in assessment of fiction in a fantasy world. There is only whether one is sensitive to a subject or situation or if one is not.

 

So someone who is "sensitive" to silly, insignificant little things like abusive relationships or abduction and torture or patricide and star-system-icide, etc, should just not watch Star Wars because they can't handle it? Expecting bad deeds to be recognized as bad deeds isn't being sensitive.

Idk why you think you are the special group that watches Star Wars the "right way." Idk why you think your interaction with the fandom takes precedence over mine. I do, however, know that "it's just fiction" is a pathetic excuse for finding excitement in repugnant ideas that most people recognize as wrong. And since you ignored it when I brought it up before yet keep harping on about Death and the Maiden, go watch the movie if you want to see how Rey should have responded to seeing Kylo again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_the_Maiden_(film)

 

A lot of Reylo fans just see it is fantasy world and aren't sensitive to the character having motivations that make no sense. (Sarcasm in case it wasn't clear)

ETA because I don't want to leave my post on such a snarky note: The filmmakers need to focus on making a good story, not trying to filter it around who is going to be sensitive to what. There's no winning that battle. What many here think would make a Ben redemption more palatable makes him even more repulsive to me.

 

Star Wars is such a fantasy universe that it is weird when people treat it like Star Trek.

 

Your words there are not an accurate reflection of my feelings on the topic of subject matter in fiction or art that may be offensive to some viewers. I mention my wife only as an example to highlight that I am familiar with how and why some may be sensitive to some subject matter that I am not and that I do empathize. I also believe strongly that art and entertainment and fantasy should be free to explore dark terrain.

 

It’s not “Death and the Maiden.”

I’ve read that meta and the surrounding discourse. It’s pretty fundamentally flawed in its assumptions and analysis.

 

There are places for that. There's an entire genre called "rape fantasy." There are however many 50 Shades of Gray if you want a major motion picture, and any number of specific "dark" adult films. The "art" is out there, so why sully Star Wars with whatever "dark" perversion needs to be broadcast in the name of "just fiction!"? Should I skip taking my kids to RoS so it can be a straight up snuff film?

 

I'm a little different in a sense that I can't really ship the main character with horrible. The only ship out of the ones you mentioned I actually like was Buffy/Angel and that's only because Angel and his murderous psychotic side are two totally different entities. I kind of get tired of the trope of the main badass lead falling in love with the homicidal bad guy.

Absolutely no judgment by the way on the ships because I get them, but I honestly feel like Reylo has the same problems that a lot of couples like Buffy/Spike and Damon/Elena.

I actually agree. But it's all about the framing. If it's dark then portray it as dark. Don't make it romantic, make sure we know it's toxic. Originally, this is why I didn't hate the Rey-Kylo TLJ stuff. I thought it was supposed to portray it as a bad idea, but when I get online I see people saying it's romantic build up and I'm like..."What?" I thought the whole point was to show that Kylo Ren is the freaking worst and any romance or friendship they could have had is completely toast. But so many other people saw it as romantic and enticing.

 

They would have wasted the movie if the message was just that. episode 8 has to matter for episode 9. it can't feel like a filler story just to explore a certain aspect that disappears in the next movie.

I still don't think we will see any romance between the 2 either way, because i do not think there will be enough time to get into that stuff.

 

Completely understandable. And SW ain`t exactly young adult romance vampire fiction so what "fits" into one genre isn`t necessarily translatable to the other, even if both may fall under the umbrella of "fantasy". Also, TV shows of course can take their time building up a romance whereas a movie has only so many scenes so what you can achieve in one medium vs the other is also very different.

Reylo just feels so weird for me because one participant is a naive teenage girl and the other is a really annoying kindergardener in a 30 year old body. Such a guy is as unsexy, unromantic and unshippable to me as possibly can be. At least get the guy through puberty first and don`t make him revert to diaper age even further.

 

So, you’re saying that fans of the ST are into those genres you just mentioned? That people who don’t hate Rey & Kylo’s interactions wants Star Wars to go to places like that!?

I think that’s easily the most inflammatory and insulting post in this thread over the past 20 pages.