ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

I’m going to go check out these new leaks you guys mentioned.

EDIT: Damn. I could have been reading new stuff instead of reading all of these arguments tonight and trying to keep the peace with my car analogy.

Happy to hear Luke & Leia’s training scene is back.

Awesome that Luke & Leia are watching over Rey at the end.

 

Very happy the Luke/Leia scene seems to be back, even if it's shortened.

 

I still remember the mix of emotions, the action, the spectacle. It was unlike anything I had ever seen. I cherish those memories as non-specific as they are because I grew up to really enjoy all the depth and detail GL brought to the OT. The OT only got better the more I watched it. I'm sure you has a similar experience in the wake of ROTS. That's an excellent place to start.

I don't claim to know what GL intended nor do I think that every nuance of value is/was necessarily the result of conscious intention.

Luke says "I can't kill my own father".

In response Obi Wan, known bender of truths, says "then the Emperor has already won".

I don't think Obi Wan or Yoda actually intended for Luke to kill Vader. They use the word "confront". Luke is the one to use the word "kill".

I suspect they knew that, if Luke killed Vader, things would be worse, but Luke needed to come to this conclusion on his own. It was not an academic lesson. It wasn't a matter of memorizing and regurgitating dogma. Luke needed to understand the path of Jedi and why it mattered.

Leia on the other hand was scared and not ready or willing to face the truth that was just revealed to her. She tells Luke to run away because she is terrified, but strong. Luke, the Jedi in training should run, but she will stay and fight.

This a rabbit hole.

I just don't see how it has been honed. Parts of it feel copied, other parts seem glossed over. I'm sorry.

This is interesting b/c I was obsessed Sifo-Dyas sub-plot for years after AOTC. It took me a long time to get over the fact that he wasn't even mentioned in ROTS. Loved the movie despite that, but dang... I read several Clone Wars novels specifically hunting for info on Sifo-Dyas.

Yoda: Much anger in him, like his father.

Some intrinsic function or purpose beyond symbolism for the audience's consumption. Something of tangible, in-universe value. By the time we meet Kylo he seems well established within the First Order. Tactical advantage works. Severe injury works. Spiritual enhancement works. Some reason, any reason conveyed onscreen prior to or during the moment he removes the helmet.

No. I'm not asking for a powerpoint presentation.

Star Wars is like music (and humor): timing matters... a lot! I feel like the missed the mark on this one.

I was talking about Enfys Nest, but you bring up an interesting point. If we postulate Kylo's helmet reveal is interesting because he is independent of any apparatus, otherwise undamaged and not an alien, then I am further critical the decision to write the Enfys Nest in this manner. It's a fantasy universe. Let turn it up a notch or five.

I think GL thought through all of that, but visualized a different outcome, at least with regard to reception among the general audience. I think he took risks and, for a significant population, the risks that didn't pay off outweigh the ones that did. I am not in that camp.

Sure. The bit about Han was an attempt explain my lack of sympathy for Vader in the face of support of Luke to save the day.

May the Force be with you.

 

Just read them too, I love it. This movie is gonna rule. Definitely gonna be in the top 3 for me.

Things I don't like: Removal of spiderbaby-Oracle. I really hope this comes out in deleted scenes, this thing sounded awesome!
Palpatine trying to get Rey to strike him down. I'd like it better if he was just baiting them to steal their power
No Anakin. But, I still doubt this is going to be the case. I just think it hasn't been spoiled yet.
I wish Luke's green blade was in this. I'm really sick of blue vs. red.

Things I like: it's more streamlined; I think the changes do the job they're supposed to in terms of simplifying the plot
LUKE AND LEIA TRAINING SCENE still in!!
Ahsoka inclusion!

On a joking note, I think to take the Skywalker name, Rey should have to sever a hand. It's only right. (not to be confused with left, which isn't a Skywalker thing)

 

As I said after I saw the trailer I am ready to LOVE this movie.

Hopefully “ReyLo” as it is called is handled with taste....Or just Kylo in general is handled with taste. I mean he’s still gonna end up on the lightside but that’s about it.

The Rey Palpatine thing....eeeeeeeeeeeeh, not my first choice but okay I can live with it.

Who knows what the rest of the context will be missing but again...from the trailer and the leaks which i’m More or less okay with ...I’m ready to love the movie.

 

Just have a look on line. The amount of comics Maul appears in, the amount of toys... the overall amount of merchandise that exists outside of the direct films. Cosplay, fan polls, cartoons, trying to tie him to a ‘Young Solo’ franchise etc. It’s all there.

 

Okay, I’ve taken these leaks/rumors with a grain of salt, but here’s my take:

I think showing Leia training Rey is an interesting concept, even if I’d rather Luke be a part of it in the living flesh. I always felt that ROTJ could have followed up more on Leia being the other hope, and I was disappointed that she hadn’t apparently received training in TFA.

I’ve gone on at length about my thoughts on the Rey/Kylo dynamic. It makes sense if they team up against a mutual enemy, but that is not at all the same things as forming an emotional connection (the one in TLJ was manipulated). I don’t want Kylo to have a major heroic role, considering what he did to Luke’s character. At least Han had half of TFA’s runtime to redeem himself, while Luke had all of five minutes in TLJ. I don’t think I’ll get past that easily watching Kylo in TROS.

It sounds like Jannah might be Lando’s daughter, oer what I read on Reddit. That might be an interesting idea, but TROS has a lot else to cover given that neither character has appeared in the sequel trilogy so far.


I am actually interested in the idea of Hux being a mole, though this is not surprising given his rivalry with Kylo, which was a bit comical at times.


About the Force ghost scene, I’m glad that Luke will allegedly be helping Rey in the final confrontation, hopefully more than just giving advice, but any role will be marred to me by TLJ and how his character was dealt with. Again, I’ve gone on about that plenty. I do wish he was helping her while alive.


While Rey Palpatine could be an interesting idea, I’d rather her be a Skywalker by far. This is the Skywalker’s story, and the ST should respect that in my opinion. Luke and Anakin deserve a better legacy than Kylo, who I don’t think I’ll accept as their heir no matter what good he does. While Vader did commit atrocities, his arc only enhanced Luke’s character, as well as his own, rather than tear it down.


Palpatine throwing Kylo down a shaft gives me hope that he’ll die unredeemed. Even if he dies redeemed, I hope that Rey isn’t motivated by avenging his death. Plenty of other reasons for her to be angry in her fight against Palpatine after that.

 

The decline in SW comic sales is something that continues to confound me every time I mentally revisit it. You have to understand---the comic book industry is in an awful place right now in terms of sales. Plenty of people from industry insiders, to artists, to agitated fans have thrown all kinds of contributing factors to explain it, but the irrefutable truth of it is that the industry is seeing a virtual second coming of the infamous late 90's decline, with Marvel especially getting the black eye every month. And believe it or not, Star Wars looked like it was turning this trend around. Most people who know what they're talking about when it comes to comics will tell you that a comic book needs to sell at least 80-100,000 copies monthly to stay afloat, and not be a financial well in which the publisher is barely turning a profit with each issue being published. Star Wars Annual #1 sold a whopping million copies, an incredible feat in this croaking industry. Now naturally, it would be impossible to expect it to maintain that kind of momentum across its entire run--not even the best-selling comic of all time managed to do that. But at the bare minimum, you'd still expect Star Wars comics on a whole to maintain at least healthy, head-above-the-water sales, right? Well, you would be wrong and just as shocked as I was. The series maintained a steady 100,000 sales pattern for two years, and then dropped like a rock---these days, it barely scrapes by at the 40,000 a month sales mark, which is nothing short of pathetic for the mainline flagship SW comic. The Poe Dameron comics started strong, maintaining sales in the 150,000 range, and then slid to the 60,000 range around the time of TLJ, and finally dying a merciful death at round the 40,000 sales mark. And Aphra's probably the worst of the lot. However strong that series might've started, for the last two years, its sales have wavered around the 20,000 range per month, which if you showed to an industry specialist, they'd probably faint. Those are abysmal sales numbers, the kind relegated for no-name indie comics squabbling for the sales crumbs left by DC and Marvel...except this is a Marvel comic, and this is Star Wars.

When discussing the objective merit of a piece of work, bias must be placed aside to acknowledge its flaws. For instance, I'm an unapologetic lover of the Prequel Trilogy. They are my favorite trilogy out of the original saga, and I have a profound amount of attachment and adoration from them. But if I'm asked about their merits in regards to film, and the art of filmmaking, I have to be realistic. Especially when it has flaws that, quite frankly, don't exist in other films that I enjoy...and by others, I mean all of them. It's worth noting that I have a strong tolerance for wooden or stilted dialogue, being a fan of Wuxia fantasy films and Japanese historical dramas, or taiga dramas, which is a lot of people standing around belting out tirades of exposition, and with a lot of melodrama that most people would find cheesy. So I guess that help numb a lot of the PT's dialogue problems fro me.

I will say however, that I part company on the notion that the ST's dialogue is better, or any form of improvement. All the ST did was swap out the operatic lines from the Prequels with try-hard edgy nonsense like "I'm being torn apart, I wanna be FREE of this pain!" and ceaseless Whedon quipping like "Boyfriend, gotta cute boyfriend"/"Where's my boyfriend, the Wookie?"/"LET'S GO, CHROME DOME!"/other lines that literally make me cringe out of my skin just thinking about them. One of the absolute worst lines, which almost sounds like it was written by someone foreign struggling with English is:
"Master Skywalker, we need you to bring the Jedi back because Kylo Ren is strong with the dark side of the Force."

This reads like something a kid would read out loud from a textbook during class. Some of these lines were altered for the novelization, but others are just as bad as their film counterparts.

I'd also add that for me, at least, the ST seems lacking in quotable lines that feel at home in the Star Wars universe. I know the PT films aren't exactly renowned for snappy dialogue, but ROTS was a film my friends and I used to quote a ton growing up. We didn't do it for yuks or meme value, we thought the lines were cool---lines delivered by the likes of Palpatine, or Dark Side Anakin, or exchanges during the duel on Mustafar or the Plagueis Story recounting. They made us feel cool and powerful. But then, we were also a pack of incurable nerds, so our metric for "cool" probably didn't amount to much.

Jesus in a hotpocket, I had completely forgotten that Hunger Games was even a thing at one point. That franchise really vanished like a fart in the wind. I remember it being infectiously popular back when I was in late high school.

And I don't even know what Divergent is. I probably don't want to.

Better get used to that. The longest rant I penned on this forum was 10 pages.

I don't get a lot of chances to talk about Star Wars in this boring town of mine, so if I see the opportunity to vent at great lengths here on the forum, you can be sure that I'll seize it.

Well, then I'll have to respectfully disagree, especially with the bolded points made here, for a variety of reasons. For one thing, some of us repeat a lot of the same complaints because they prove to be a consistent problem when discussing the ST and its narrative trajectory. For instance, I don't think it's a dark web secret that the bulk of my posts have to do with Kylo Ren as a character, and my issues with him keep coming back up because the problems and deficiencies with his character manifest themselves in different ways, related to plot development and interactions with other characters. Despite my best efforts to word and structure my complaints in a different way each time, the eventuality of the complaint rearing its head on a routine basis is unavoidable. As are other complaints like the derivative nature of this trilogy's aesthetic or story beats, or the rushed nature of certain narrative elements. If people were constantly complaining about stuff like the Gravity Bombs from TLJ or the disappearing knife from the Throne Room scene, and weren't coming up with new tangible points about those things, I might agree with you. But the complaints I mentioned like derivative elements or rushed plot development are major problems of the story that encompass all of the new films, huge puddles that one can't walk around. I'm a fan of the PT, but at the same time, I'm not going to berate people for consistently bringing up things like the stale and shallow romance between Anakin and Padme. That's a major issue endemic to all three of the prequel films, a cavernous problem that is unavoidable and an understandable and justified point of contention with those movies. It's perfectly understandable why they keep coming in PT-related discussions, they're just as central to the films' execution as the emotional plot development of Kylo Ren is to the ST. Of course you're going to see those complaints manifest themselves repeatedly. And if they're repeated on a constructive level, which they often are on this thread, there's no reason they can't be expressed in frequency, especially when different fans experience different issues with the often-cited flaws.

And as for the whole "bringing people down" thing....there's literally nothing anyone can do about that. I tend to be hyperbolic and eccentric in my posts, saying a lot of things about these films certain people might find distressing. I'm sorry people feel that way, but I have no intention of altering my posts, which are already constructive and civilly argued to the letter, in a pedantic attempt to make them feel better. And neither, frankly, should anyone else. That's how you breed hypersensitivity and a weak skin to contrasting ideas. I love the Prequel Trilogy---I wasn't emotionally shattered or put down by the internet making the bashing of those films their favorite contact sport for ten years. Exposing myself to the opinions of people decrying those films actually benefited my perception of the PT, by seeing complaints I agree with and others I thought were nonsensical nitpicking. It has also strengthened my ability to argue with other people, and engage in discourse with other fans.

If people are supposedly departing the forum in droves because they can't stand the negativity, that's no one's business but their own. I'd rather this forum stay the way it is than turning into the echo chamber nightmare that is r/StarWarsCantina, where dissenting voices are shouted down and discourse is encouraged with all the enthusiasm of free thought under a Borg regime. Positivity is healthy. Discourse is healthier, because it enables both positivity and negativity to mingle, and for the strength of argumentation to flourish.

Now, this is something I partially agree with, though not for the same reasons you might. I let a lot of things slide in arguments I have with other people on this forum, mostly because I feel derailing the discussion into old ground isn't necessarily relevant to the topic at hand. For instance, many have probably taken notice of the long, American novel-length exchange between myself and jeangreyforever. There's a lot of points she brought up that I was tempted to home in on and expound upon, relating to the ST and TLJ in particular. I opted not to do so, not out of consideration for anyone's feelings, but because it wasn't relevant to our discussion regarding the iconic status of characters. I also see a lot of posts that I simply choose to ignore, because the topic that they're discussing (as vehemently as I might disagree with them) aren't part of what several other users are talking about. I could just as easily wait until that topic is the center of conversation for the whole thread, and then weigh in my traditional, lengthy, rambly format.

EDIT: Also, off-topic, I saw a few likes on that Honshu-sized post I made about iconic characters, and to those people, I'd like to say: props to you for having the patience and coffee to read through all of that, because that's probably one of the longest and most incessant ramblings I've posted on this forum, and I wasn't expecting a single sane person to read it. So, thanks for that.

 

I think you misunderstand me. Obviously similar points will be raised in discussions if they are fundamental problems with the films. I'm talking about repetitive discussions upon the same topics, often in response to one person mentioning something that another disagrees with and that person wishing to rehash the discussion for the thousandth time. Often these responses are just rhetoric which isn't going to lead to new insightful discussion - it's practically just another statement that we've heard from them so many times.

Again, I think you misunderstand me. This isn't an instance of simply not being able to handle negative opinions. I mean if I didn't want to hear negative opinions I simply wouldn't engage in this forum like I do. I'm talking about the repetitive and frequent recycling of the same negative points just creates a negative atmosphere with no balance. I think we should be conscious that other people use the forum as well with different opinions and if the atmosphere of the forum is overwhelmingly negative it's not a very fun place to debate. In other words I don't think the forum should be overborne with negativity, just like I wouldn't like it if it was overborne in positivity.

To be fair to you your posts aren't very repetitive and they are constructive to discussions. But there are a lot of posts that are essentially the same discussions being had.

 

It's just a cynical PG reboot of The Running Man for wussies, anyway.

*Accusatory Schwarzenegger vocal sounds* AUUGHAUUGHAUGH.

 

I'm the opposite, this movie sounds like a mess honestly.

 

In fact, actors had to read a scene from Hunger Games while auditioning for TFA.

 

Marvel dominating at the box office and in merch while its publishing division struggles is actually kind of sad. It’s shocking to me that they haven’t been able to somehow translate the MCU’s success into a new generation of kids buying comics but I suppose, due to screens and viewer choices, it’s never been a more competitive time in human history for anyone involved in any form of entertainment to try and get eyes on their content because everyone of us has access to more entertainment content than any other time in human history. Still shocks me that some of my friend’s kid’s idea of an ideal weekend is being able to watch some stranger play the video game that they love while they watch, rather than play the same thing themselves, but that’s the world we live in now. Heck, some of these gamers turn profits just live streaming themselves sleeping! I don’t get it.

The Luke & Leia scene being back is a big win for TROS. Hopefully the final force ghost moments and voices of the past resonate emotionally as well.

 

I finally read all those leaks and maybe it's naive but I am still holding onto hope the end battle with palpatine doesn't play out that way.It sounds like the darkside in it's simplest form takes and the Light gives,so when rey gets infused with the power form past jedi I guess that's the overall meaning.I don't want that to happen,but if done right it's acceptable I guess.

 

Reading the leaks, something strikes me: Kylo is not a threat in any way. He never wins or stalemates against Rey, he gets blasted with lightning and then thrown in a pit, he doesn't kill or injure anyone significant. He's supposed to be redeemed this episode, but holy crap, this guy has no menace.

 

You needed the leaks to figure out that Kylo is a fraud?

 

Kylo’s been anti-hero in waiting the whole time. Combining the opportunism of his father with the ability to read people like his mother and the power of his grandfather... he had all the tools to be a formidable Jedi. Perhaps closer to someone more serious like Qui-Gonn at an older age if he could live up to his potential and not embraced the dark side and some of the most extreme aspects of traits her inherited from his family applies toward evil. He threw it all away.

He could have been stopping evil beings like Supreme Leader Snoke for the purposes of good but instead slices him in half with his aforementioned skills only for more evil.

He could have used his powerful blaster bolt stasis focus to protect people from projectiles but instead used it to hurt.

Thankfully we will see him toss aside his own Empire and take on and stop the Knights from trying to harm Rey while making his way toward her and ensuring that her hope is restored in the power of the light. And for him to do all that and come all that way and lay it all on the line to help someone who isn’t a son or daughter... or sibling and sacrifice himself to try and help save her soul from the dark side? It’s more contemplative and even more brave and selfless than what Vader did when he chose to debilitate Palpatine rather than watch his son be electrocuted to death in front of him by him.

Ben Solo really does go down like the best parts of his family, rather than the worst combining on the evil end of the spectrum.

 

He's a fraud but Luke, Snoke, and even Rey have talked about how strong he is but he keeps losing. If he's gonna be a villain, make threatening in some way.

 

Yes. It's really hard to make sweeping judgments about his character until, you know, we see the movie and just not go by some cliff notes..

I wasn't a huge fan of Palpatine returning, but I'm trying to approach this movie with an open mind. I want to "feel it". I had a real emotional connection to TFA, that I didn't have with TLJ. (I didn't dislike TLJ - just different feel)

The Threepio line from the trailer shook me up. That emotional connection may be back. The Force Ghosts and non-Force Ghosts (Padme, Han) party at the end, is exactly what I want in an ending. I'll want an explanation, but I'm all-in for it.

I want the saga to go off the way I felt about ROTJ, with the characters I loved spending time together even if it's another reality.

 

Being strong isn't antithetical to being a fraud.

 

I honestly think it sounds so bad @Thrawn082 that this could be good fun bad. Now nothing would been better Star Wars good fun bad then time travel but this is pretty close.

There is zero chance this ends @JediLight ROTJ, zero chance. This is completely artificial which is fitting of the ST. In the end, George was right. This was nothing more then a money grab. They didn't want to make something that inspired people or even challenged them. They just wanted to make movies that made a lot of $$$.

 

I don't think they're even going for threatening. Dude looks like he's about to start literally crying, like he's struggling to hold it in, when he walks out of the mist on the death star. Rey's the one that looks menacing. Whatever they're doing with Kylo, it's over my head.

In other news, it seems JP doesn't agree with JW that Rey is looking at Kylo like he's Jesus at the end of the trailer. Holy hell do I hope it's true that she's not looking at Kylo like that. That would be flipping bonkers with how insane it would be.

 

Now that the leaks are more or less confirmed, I'm truly worried about the plot structure. I agree that the threat of the first order doesn't seem anymore serious than in TLJ where they all behaved like incompetent buffoons. Now we have Hux actualy helping the heroes escape. Kylo loosing again every confrontation with Rey (the part where he just randomly tries to ram her with is TIE fighter resulting in her cutting his ship in half has a good chance to become his most pathetic moment). Palpatine will just be an impotent old man until he gets his powers back and then dies two minutes later by exploding from his own lightnings. The knights of Ren won't get to show any skill more impressive than the pretorian gards and their total absence from the trailers is definitely not a good sign. It appears the Sith troopers won't be anything special either.

And I'm especially worried about the destroyers equiped with Death star tech. The script should better make clear that these ships don't come from the time of the old empire 35 years ago. Because, if they do, then there was litteraly no point in the construction of a second Death star !
But, even if they are somehow more recent than they appear, I can't imagine any scenario where an enemy fleet could engage them for more than a minute. See that nice shot of all the ships coming to the rescue with the Falcon ? If ten destoyers shoot in their direction with Death-star lasers, they're gone. There won't even be a battle. But, I guess this won't happen, because... reasons. And the bad guys will look like morons once more, even more so when they let horses charging on the top of their ships, and the stakes will be ruined. I already miss ewoks and gungans...

I would have loved to see the galaxy coming together to fight Palpatine in a well constructed movie, with actual fleets from all the cultures of the entire saga represented. But only if it was an integral part of the story, and if victory was at least conceivable. Lando just going for a ride and coming back a few minutes later with a bunch of ships, familiar or not, that were never introduced in this trilogy will feel like a really cheap move. If it is somehow said that all these people came because of Leia's message in TLJ, where are they at the beginning of TROS then ?!?
It seems like they tried to get an End game moment with all the portals, but forgot that we had seen all these characters for entire movies in the MCU before we could get to that emotional point. And they're going to ignore the Force ghost when they could have given us exactly the kind of pay off we needed for a saga ending. I can't imagine JJ and co considering this as their best option. It just sounds insane...