CT Palpatine's plan in ROTJ was very weak.

Well, yes, you're right, obviously Luke could never have succeeded. In practice, the Emperor was just trying to nudge Luke along on the dark path by getting him to attempt to kill him.

For the sake of argument, if he did manage to miraculously kill the Emperor, then sure, Luke could have still resisted the pull to the dark, hypothetically. But it would have been a lot harder. And I'm not sure if he ever could have fully escaped the stain of having struck down a defenseless adversary.

 

Was the fleet meant to engage the Super Star Destroyer patrolling the shield perimeter and any other capital ships that might be around? Also provides hanger space for ships and central command area for the fighters.

 

They also could’ve been used as a distraction too. If just send some fights odds are they’d be overwhelmed long before they had a chance to get near the Deathstar.

At least if they have some bigger ships accompany them they have a better chance at slipping through unnoticed.

 

I feel like distraction is not a good reason to commit the fleet to battle. The rebel cruisers can't do anything to stop the TIE fighters from chasing after their fighters...and the TIE pilots would have to be stupid to allow themselves to be distracted by the cruisers instead of screening the Death Star from the actual threat.

Anyway now that I think about it, if the rebel plan was stupid, then by implication so was Palpatine's, because he was counting on the rebels to commit their fleet unnecessarily. If the rebels had done the smart thing then Palpatine would have been risking his person just to destroy a few starfighter squadrons.

 

Aren't they expecting a Super Star Destroyer to be there? Han had to get past one before landing on Endor.

The rebel fleet is there to engage a small group of Imperial capital ships working security. They're ready for a a few big Imperial ships not an entire fleet.

Spoiler: Possible Real World Reason:

In the real world, earlier drafts for Return of the Jedi had another part to the battle where Rebels would actually infiltrate the Death Star. I don't know if they planned to capture the Emperor or had to shut something down similar to Obi-Wan. The big ships might be left over from story idea and served a more direct purpose.

 

Well whether there's a small fleet or even a big fleet guarding the Death Star, there's a really simple solution for dealing with them...fly around them

Han couldn't do that because he needed to fool the Imperials.

 

With things like tractor beams, hangers with additional TIE fighters, turbo canons, those Imperial Capital ships could be a problem for unescorted Rebel ships. Remember one man fighters worked against the first Death Star in part part because there were no Star Destroyers there to stop them, and the Death Star was set like small fighters weren't a threat.

And look at the opening fo The Last Jedi. Poe had to take out the guns on a canon ship or the other rebel ships wouldn't have had a chance. Rebel Capital ships would help draw off the Imperials Capital ships.

 

Well, Palpatine had underestimated Luke's willpower all along. While it may have been impossible for others to resist, Luke MAY actually have succeeded in killing Palpatine and still stay away from the dark side. We just don't know for sure if killing is an absolutely irredeemable act. Obviously it was not for Vader.

 

I view Luke killing Palpatine in anger as something like knocking down the first domino. It’s possible that Luke could stop himself before to much damage is done yet it’s also possible that he won’t. His friends walked into a trap, the entire rebel fleet is in danger of being torn apart by both the imperial fleet that wasn’t supposed to be there & a Death Star thats not supposed to work. On top of all that, Luke’s father is there to witness his moment of weakness & might try to take advantage of it. Luke still has a lot of difficult decisions to make and if he’s compromised there’s no guarantee he’ll make the right ones.

Anakin fell to the dark side when he was offered a chance to save somebody he cared about, whose to say the same wouldn’t happen to Luke if Vader offered him the same choice?

 

Also Anakin killed Dooku. That was like the point of no return, but even then he didn't totally turn. He shouldn't have done that. I think in the moment Palpatine knew Anakin was both strong enough for defeating Dooku. And could be turned to the dark side for killing Dooku the way he did.

I don't think the Emperor thought for a second Luke could kill him. What's interesting is if Vader survived. Is he then a good guy? When Rey and Kylo Ren kill Snoke, Kylo Ren is ready to be the darkside master. Rey refuses him and asks that Ben join her on the good side. That's a new spin on the show down.

 

If Luke was powerful enough to kill Sidious, Vader would be in no position to offer him anything. Luke can order Vader to order the imperials to retreat.

 

If Luke swings his saber at Sidious and Vader makes no effort to stop it, it really doesn’t say anything about whose more powerful. It just demonstrates that Sidious rolled the dice and lost.

 

Would only killing an unarmed opponent have turned someone to the dark side or injuring as well? What Luke should have done right after defeating Vader is NOT throw away his lightsaber but immediately go after Palpatine. He should have turned on his lightsaber and held it at Palpatine's throat, keeping him in check. At the slightest sign that Palps would resist Luke could have cut both his hands/arms off, preventing him from using either Force lightning or a lightsaber. Then Vader might have helped restrain Palps, tie him up or whatever, then Luke could have taken him before an Alliance court or whatever. If Vader had not cooperated, well, he was disabled anyway. If the court had decided to execute Palps then it wouldn't have been Luke's fault, so no danger of turning anymore.

 

Actually his plan was pretty solid overall. his big weakness, and Luke points it out for him, is his arrogance. His didn't seriously consider the possibility that The Rebels could find a way out of his trap, or that Luke could resist him.

 

I’m...pretty sure if Luke so much as fake-lunged Palpatine, the old raisin would overwhelm him. We’re talking about a dude who managed to fight Yoda to a standstill. Luke would’ve stood absolutely no chance at all, even if he engaged Berserker-Mode again.

 

If Sidious dies just like that, then it means he is incapable of defending himself against Luke. If he was that weak, Vader would not have stepped in in the first place.


Theoretically speaking, even if Luke killed both Sidious and Vader in anger, I don't see how that would turn him. Even if those acts somehow turn him to the dark side of the Force, it doesn't mean anything other than that his Force techniques have switched. He's not going to suddenly turn into a different person.
It's like if a person was using Cartesian coordinates to solve math problems their whole life, and one day they decide to switch to using polar coordinates, they're not going to magically turn evil, even if traditionally there were many evil polar coordinate users and good Cartesian coordinate users. As far as most non-mathematicians are concerned, that person is still using math to solve problems.

 

True - but aggression and arrogance also can provide victory & put a ton of pressure on your enemies. I agree with the OP about his plans being a little wonky but the guy is the epitome of confidence so it does make sense.

 

Just think, one single AOTC-era gunship would have decimated the Ewoks, even the hijacked AT-ST, protected the shield generator, and ended the war. Of course, Vader would have still killed him, and how awkward would that have been for Luke....

 

Yep. ROTJ’s ending was a big setback, but when you think about it, the guy made very few mistakes throughout the saga. He plotted his way to power, got it, ruled for decades, and his story is still playing out.

 

I too never thought Luke would turn if he struck down Shiv.
1. He is doing what Yoda and Obi Wan told him to do.
2. He is ending the war and saving millions.
3. Shiv is hardly defenseless, having Force lightning. I realize Luke doesn't know this yet.
4. Nor do I think Mace would have turned if he killed Shiv. Yeah it's a little messy, but it's war and Siths don't fight fair.

 

I think it was more Palpatine wanting Luke to engage in a duel with Vader, feeling confident Vader would block Luke’s sabre from hitting him. Thus, a drawn out battle with Vader allows for greater opportunity to lose control and lash out.

 

Yeah Sheev probably thought that making Luke fight his father would push him more towards the Dark Side. Also even as a kid it seemed clear to me that Sheev could have killed Luke easily if he wanted to, he just preferred not to if possible.

Leak inaccurate plans to the Rebels making it seem like they have a golden opportunity to take out a not yet functional DS and kill the Emperor personally. Tricking them into massing most of their fleet for one attack, not knowing that:

The DS WAS operational by that time.

Sheev had ensembles a massive fleet to counter them.

He had an entire legion of troops massed on Endor waiting for the Rebel strike team.

Solid plan overall, he just didn't take certain factors into account due to his ego.

 

Interesting that no one pointed out that Palp's final plan didn't initially include Luke.

Darth Vader: I have felt him, my master.

Emperor: Strange that I have not.

Palps probably would have been much quicker to destroy the fleet if Luke wasn't there. Instead, he held off his original plan and played with the rebel fleet to use them as bait for Luke. In doing so, he gave them more time to recover from their initial surprise.

 

He did predict that Luke would seek out Vader before that "In time, he will seek you out, and when he does, you must bring him before me."

What he apparently wasn't able to do, was sense Luke's presence on the shuttle, the way Vader could.

 

Yes, but this was after the fact...

They made eye contact from light-years and a soul's breath away. Across that
abyss, Vader responded. "My master, a small Rebel force has penetrated the shield
and landed on Endor."
"Yes, I know." There was no hint of surprise in his tone; rather, fulfillment.
Vader noted this, then went on. "My son is with them."
The Emperor's brow furrowed less than a millimeter. His voice remained cool,
unruffled, slightly curious. "Are you sure?"
"I felt him, my master." It was almost a taunt. He knew the Emperor was
frightened of young Skywalker, afraid of his power. Only together could Vader and
the Emperor hope to pull the Jedi Knight over to the dark side. He said it again,
emphasizing his own singularity. "I felt him."
"Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits.
They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful—and no one was infallible with its use.
It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son
were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker—but, in
addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a
buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this
matter are clear, Lord Vader."
"They are clear, my master." He knew his son's presence, it galled him and
fueled him and lured him and howled in a voice of its own.
"Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for him," Emperor Palpatine
said simply. As long as things were clear, things were clear.
"He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
felt drawn.
"Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free
will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be
seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew
these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be
read with absolute certainty—but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have
foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always
been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate
vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will
then bring him before me."
Vader bowed low. "As you wish."