ST Laura Dern (Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo) in TLJ

The thing is, whether you think Poe deserved to be demoted or not, it doesn't change the way Holdo is written.

Good leadership is situational. It involves understanding people, understanding context, and adjusting your approach to both. Holdo does none of this. With her subordinates reeling from the loss of the entire command staff, with Leia's fate uncertain, with her being new to most she is now leading, with her having no reservoir of trust, with their numbers dwindling and the First Order on their heels, she's a smug jerk to Poe at a time the Resistance really really really NEEDS him, and at a time a smart leader would use a popular guy like him to build bridges. She insists everyone just needs to shut up and follow directions unquestioningly even though she has offered no hint of a plan to get them out of a situation that seems to lead to certain death (and when, again, she has "nothing in the bank" with these people). I'm sorry, she's a terrible leader, in a military OR civilian context.

PS - BTW, why do both Finn and Rose clearly ALSO not trust Holdo? Does Rose strike you as one to casually disobey orders (moments before, she's tasering would be deserters, right?)...

 

Not in any military. He'd be in handcuffs immediately.
You. Follow. Orders.

ESPECIALLY when the stakes are high.

 

Leia would be written up for slapping Poe. Poe might be court martialed, along with Finn, Rose, and anyone who cooperated with them. Holdo, if she had survived, would be yanked out of any significant command position for her awful leadership skills.

Of course, all of that raises tons of other questions. Is "the Resistance" an official military force of the Republic? Is Rey now "in the military"? Chewbacca? What are their ranks? Back in the OT days, they let Luke fly an elite military "aircraft" with zero experience, on a crucial mission - does that happen in any military on Earth? How does a grifting, shady character like Lando become a general? Han, a general? They have a lot of experience leading armies, fleets of star ships? (My point is that the movies from OT on have never treated the Rebels/the Resistance as well organized, strictly military operations, or at least not with any consistency).

And as many others have noted, just what IS the message here? Blindly follow orders?

Isn't this fun? GREAT writing, that we've spent years chasing down these rabbit holes. That's one of the key problems with TLJ - and as I've said before, I am less tough on the movie than many others; there are some elements I appreciate. In my opinion, whatever they were going for, they created a real mess with the Holdo/Poe/Finn/Leia/Rose/"military" aspects of the storyline.

PS - Want to see a well written, well thought out version of "hot shot pilot learns to become a leader"? Check out the recent MIDWAY movie.

 

To your earlier points I found it amusing how the OT4 characters could just randomly go AWOL and not even report back as everyone else is engaged in combats and then they waltz back in and it’s like they never left. But this is Star Wars. It’s always been a little bit cartoony in that way.

As for, “What’s the message?” To me, it’s notable that when Holdo and Leia speak and later when Poe and Leia speak she helps bring out the best in both and levels each other more. They both see the strengths of the other more in hindsight. So, for me the primary message is actually about just how easily it is for people to judge people they meet on first impressions, and make assumptions, and develop mistrust and allow ego to bring out the worst in people and impact organizational structure and teamwork. That, for me, is the primary theme being explored. The secondary theme for me actually relates back to Leia and organizational risk in having a single leader who holds an organization and its personalities together. This is the same for business. If one person goes on vacation and a company feels the impact of that to the degree the Resistance did Leia then that organization must do more to prepare the next wave. That means working on weaknesses but also being willing to see growth and give freedom and delegation and by the end when Leia says “What are looking at me for? Follow him.” that message comes clear.

What I like about Rian Johnson’s thematic work is that even though he ultimately does come down on the side of two competing arguments eventually... he gives that other argument a chance. Some people think that this leads to mixed or muddied messaging and judging by some of the initial impressions of VIII and the talks that followed (and continue) that approach does seem to have that downside. Having said that, a lot of my favorite art house films take a similar approach and allow me to draw my own conclusions after hearing the arguments of both sides. There’s some truth, for example, in what DJ does say to Finn on board the Libertine and it’s him walking away rich as the other two and the Resistance are now suddenly facing execution for trusting one Han Solo-type too many. And yet the moment seems to galvanize Finn in a moment of clarity and Resistance commitment that he will never come back from.

 

I just saw Knives Out and now I’m even more sure that Johnson’s choice for Poe & Holdo both pushing each other toward ego-driven choices was purposeful, as was his choice to temp Finn toward a Libertine life via DJ, before showing him reject both. Johnson gives both sides of opposing perspectives their say and shows both sides having faults, missteps, weaknesses and misjudgments, and then leads the audience toward the thematic question or statement.

I also won’t be surprised if we learn later that he wanted the Kylo Ren reveal to setup another twist to come too. Not saying JJ ultimately will settle on a twist that he also wanted but I do think he left enough things by design to make it feel like it was resolved when it really wasn’t.

 

I just have to frame this. That's all.

 

I don't think it's fair to say "zero experience." He had a lot of experience in the T-16 Skyhopper, which had very similar controls and handling, he had lots of target practice strafing womprats, and he had just shot down a couple of TIEs with the Falcon's turret guns. I'm sure Biggs, who seems to be one of the Alliance's trusted pilots, put in an enthusiastic recommendation for him. And we can also surmise that there was no one else with comparable experience to put in that cockpit.

Realistically, it still wouldn't happen in any RL military, but I can justify it enough in my head to not let it break the movie.

 

Plus, the more recent cuts have Luke passing a sim test.

 

Can you expand on this, please?

 

Wasn't that in the radio play?

 

I think the thing to remember is that Poe Dameron, at the beginning of "The Last Jedi" is something of a hot-headed pilot who leads a successful attack against a capital ship but which also results in the destruction of much of the Resistance fleet. Basically a pyrrhic victory. He then tries to lead a mutiny when he feels that the Resistance leadership has taken the wrong path. At the final battle on Crait, however, Poe Dameron finally realizes the value of retreat, which was Admiral Holdo's plan, to live and fight another day.

Admiral Holdo probably saw Poe Dameron as someone with potential, but not yet in a command position to dictate overall strategy, particularly over that decision at the beginning of the film to attack a capital ship that also led to massive Resistance losses. At the end, however, Poe Dameron seems to finally understand what Admiral Holdo was going for.

 

I have to agree strongly with this. At first, Finn isn't too dedicated to the Resistance cause, and was about to desert the Resistance to track down his friend Rey. Finn's friendship with Rose Tico, witnessing child slavery and animal abuse at Canto Bight, directs him to sympathize more strongly with the Resistance cause. At the final battle in Crait, he was about ram his ship into the cannon, if it wasn't for Rose.

 

Holdo treats Poe with contempt, throughout, before she and Leia share that mystifying, "feels like it got added on reshoots" moment where, after Poe is knocked unconscious for mutiny, they say something like "Golly gee I love that guy". Heaping scorn on someone and telling them to just shut up and blindly follow orders won't teach them much, except maybe to be a drone.

Then, when Poe calls off the attack on the cannon, it makes no sense - "fight to the last man/woman" may be wasteful when you have options, but the whole point there was that they had no options. They couldn't possibly anticipate the miraculous intervention of Luke and Rey. I agree, we're supposed to think this shows Poe's growth, but in context, it doesn't work (in my view!). They either take out the cannon or, but for an absolute miracle, they're about to be massacred.

I think Holdo is the victim of some terrible script writing - you can imagine an arc where she helps Poe learn to temper bravado with restraint (if that's an arc you really want to explore) but I don't think we got it.

 

Just wanted to give a quick birthday shout out to Academy Award winner Laura Dern today!

 

Luke was a hotshot pilot in his skyhopper, but discussion of this was almost entirely removed from the film. He claims he could pilot a ship to Alderaan if he and Obi-Wan bought it, but later Han Solo derides him as a crop duster. The special edition restores a conversation between Biggs and Red Leader where he recommends Luke as "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" but it doesn't restore Luke and Biggs talking about Luke's daredevil antics in his skyhopper on Tatooine. The novelization and original script even had Red Leader commenting on how he flew with Anakin back in the day. But anyway, Luke has piloting experience albeit not in the vacuum of space or in combat. But apparently he did use womp rats for target practice.

 

I remember thinking Holdo was an enemy spy leading a conspiracy against the resistance. I wasn't sure what the message was, it seemed like the rebellion within the rebellion was being glorified. In the end I think Holdo was a heroic character but the situation being so dire led her to become more authoritarian than necessary. She makes up for it with her self-sacrifice in the end, which apparently required skill on the level of force-attunement because the timing was one in a million. Which also brings Han Solo to mind, since in The Force Awakens he times his exit from lightspeed off the cuff, which ought to be impossible without some connection to the Force. So I think both characters are untrained but more in tune with the Force than anyone knows.

EDIT: Sorry for double posting again. I get excited and forget about the rule. I'll try to avoid this going forward.

 

Splitting hairs here: In my headcanon, those two don't use the Force, but the Force uses them. It's their destiny.

 

Everyone has access to the Force, but not everyone can develop to a Jedi level, especially not quickly in the way Luke and Rey do. Since the fall of the Jedi order in episode three there have to be loads of people with Jedi or near Jedi potential running around being amazing without ever learning that they are gifted with a special attunement to the Force.

 

This should be intercut right as she pulls the lever.