ST Hyperspace Use In The ST

Not to mention peaple generally don't go around lobbing nukes at warships

Presumably their entering the Falcon's hyperspace tunnel with it.

As for them having hyperspace, they've had it since TFA we just have'nt seen them use it beforehand (even if you ingore the VG, the fact that Finn saw no problem in using a TIE fighter to escape the Jakku system indicates it has to have FTL)

 

They did! I have photo evidence of the weapon they used to do it too!

(Edit - sorry, did'nt mean to post that as a second response)
(Edit edit - sorry for reminding everyone the Ewoks cartoon existed)

 

Yeah, I doubt an average (ie. oldschool-tech era thing, say 60s-70s style, nothing cutting edge) costs more than an F-22 would.

Assuming the uranium's in free enough supply, building the thing's probably fairly run-of-the-mill by now for us first-worldies.

 

well if we are doing old school bombs then we should compare it to old 60 70s planes shouldn't we? I mean most of the cost of modern vehicles is just the defense contractor working up the cost to get as much money as they can from the government.

 

The first world contries with any appriciable amount of nukes are geniunly more concerned with have less of them, rather then building more.

It's weaker nations that actually want to build them since they view them (not wholly without basis) as the only effective deterance agianst conventional attacks from more powerful nations.

 

Which inflation index would you like to use? I'm pretty sure the market basket that makes up CPI isn't really applicable to the manufacture of nuclear weapons. But, there are many others. The total cost included ancillary supporting functions like intelligence. We could also include those for your notional F-22 squadron. How much of the US budget for intelligence do you think would be applicable? In any event, even if you used the $5.8T and inflation, you're not going to close that gap.

Warfare doesn't include nukes anymore?! Go tell the Russians who are investing heavily in hypersonic glide vehicles for their warheads.

How about the Chinese DF-21 nuclear capable carrier killer?

Actually, most of the cost for current generation fighter aircraft is software development (please scroll down to page 119, figure 4-12 and table 4-3). The root problem is the DoD still procures things that seem like hardware (e.g. aircraft) like they are hardware. But, really the hardware just allows the software to move around the planet. And, certifying software for flight is crazy expensive.

All of you ducked the closing point of my post. The Holdo manuever is very similar to having nukes - it's a revolutionary game changer. Lighting the fuse on the first nuke was a low probability of success event. But, it was quickly refined until today even an impoverished, backwards country like North Korea can make them. Having experienced first hand the devastation of such an attack, one would think the First Order would have had a crash R&D program to make hyper space weapons. They then would have laughed at the Sith fleet. Bringing old school star destroyers into a fight against hyper space weapons would be like sailing a fleet of wooden man-of-wars into battle against a US nuclear powered super carrier.

 

Wether or not peaple are still investing in nuclear weapons dos'nt change the fact that nobody has fired one in anger for seventy-five years - you know, since the second and (so far) last one in history to be used as weapon was deployed.

And when have the Chinese actually use that? And if they had the opertunity, would they?

It's evidently not, since even though its apparently uncommon its well-known enough that even an tactical ingoramous like Hux was able to reconize it right away.

All the "holdo manuever" (a name that makes no sense in-universe becuse theres no way Holdo is the first person to do when hyperspace has existed for thousands of years) is just ramming your ship into anouther a ship at maxium speed. It's a very basic concept, and one that we here on Earth have understood since quite literally the begining of naval combat.

Becuse we use are nuclear weapons sooo often in real life, right? Especially for things that conventional weapons would suffice for just fine.

By this logic the Royal Navy should have just nuked the Argentinian Fleet in 1981 rather then run the risk of a surface engagment.

 

it's not... the equivalent of a nuke would be a death star laser. This is the equivlent of making a nuclear air craft carrier to ram into ships...

it's only works if

1. a the attacking ship doesn't attack
2. they are lined up in a formation behind the lead ship.

Change either of those and it's not effective.

why? again death star tech is far more useful and powerful then the Holdo maneuver. If all the ships are lined up side to side you only take out 1 ship. Hell remember the dreadnaught at the start of the movie? the ship called a fleet killer? That could do more damage.

and remind me when was that ever used?

Not at all since you are using prices from different decades.

 

Compared to the height of the Cold War, maybe. Both the US and Russia are building more next-gen weapons currently, though. Ostensibly China also. Downsizing from the 70s and 80s stockpile sizes, sure. No sane rational country is aiming to do away with them in any significant sense though, they're here to stay and in "blow up the world a few hundred times over" capacity. New & improves ones are on the way, right now.

 

Of course nukes are here to stay. Perhaps I could have prased that better. I meant relative to the buildup of the Cold War arms races - though given recent events in the Middle East and treaty changes within the last couple of years, who knows?

(Though I'd hardly call the two nations with the largest nuclear stockpiles "sane" or "rational" - at least currently)

 

I definitely took the Star Wars Galaxy and all of its weirdness and magic and myth into account when suspending my belief with lightspeed skipping.

The following is why I have an issue with it;

So with Poe making his initial jump (or skip) and then coming back to normal speed, he is immediately confronted with obstacles. Even with the initial jump alone, this immediately changes all of his distances between the Falcon and what dangers may (???????? I find it hard to believe he preset anything) have been calculated and negotiated originally by the Nav computer. But with obstacles now in front of him, so do the vectors change as well. And given the return to normal space is very brief and this lightspeed skipping sequence happens 2 to 4 times, there is no way that the Nav computer would have a hope in hell in recorrecting with the multiple change in vectors and subsequent distances between the Falcon any kind of "body" posing a danger to the Falcon during its flight. That is impossible because there are continuely 2 variables in the equation. If Poe was out in space and did this in a straight line....maybe. But not when you change vectors especially so many times.

Furthermore, to complete this delusional picture of absurdity, the Tie fighters stay on the tail of the fastest ship in the Galaxy and seemingly can make the exact same lightspeed jumps (both in vector and distance) as the Falcon; ships that could never go to lightspeed in the first place. Heck, even the Supremacy, whilst tracking the Raddus through hyperspace, had to wait until the Raddus had returned to normal flight before it obtained the correct coordinates for it to do its lightspeed jump.

On the other hand, the Holdo Manoeuvre stands a chance of working and IMO, has better odds of succeeding than JJ's one in million.

This is because for me, the Raddus is a battleship that would be equipped with tactical battle computers that would be able to see all of the speeds and flight vectors around it. So it will know the Supremacy's flight path -and even more so because both ships are on the same flight path on the same vector.

In addition, it too has a Nav computer and even though it turns around to face the Supremacy and the vectors change, the Nav computer would retain lock on all of the obstacles and dangers and continuously auto-correct because it remains in the same area and not a few light years away. Abit like Han Solo escaping Tie fighters and Star Destroyers. Despite the continual change in vector in avoiding those pursuing him, the Nav computer will lock onto any obstacles and autocorrect with each vector change because he remains in the immediate area.

So once Holdo gets the Raddus around and is lined up in perfect alignment with the Supremacy's flight vector that never changes, she pushes the throttle forward to lightspeed. And it is very plausible for it work because it would involve the physics and mathematical algorithms already within the 2 computers.

And it works because as @Vicarious Fan points out, the Supremacy's guns are all trained on the escape pods; yet another fine example of Hux's short-sighted ego and bufoonism. By the time everyone figures out Holdo's move and scream to refocus the guns, its too late because the Raddus has virtually turned around and is in prime position to carry out Holdo's plan. Had half the guns been trained on the Raddus, the plan would not have worked because during its turning, the Raddus comes within firing range and would not have got into any such position to pose a danger before it was destroyed.

The only time I would have to potentially suspend belief with Holdo's plan is if it required 2 or more people - with at least one being on the tactical computer and another working the Nav computer. But I can readily overlook this and be comfortable with both being able to be controlled by the admiral's chair.

I already grit my teeth and suspend enough belief with Poe Dameron being able to take out large numbers of guns and enemy fighters by himself; all whilst doing the most crazy turns. Its like he is the greatest fighter pilot to ever live 10 times over - even beating both Skywalkers, Solo and Wedge. But I cant accept this stupidity by JJ in respect of lightspeed skipping. To me, its just plain idiotic.

 

Those are Special Forces TIEs - the two-seat ones with the turrets on the undersides, and the connections to the wing pylons having big discs around the connection - they can go into hyperspace.

SpecForce TIE
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TIE/sf_space_superiority_fighter

Regular TIE
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TIE/fo_space_superiority_fighter

 

But doesnt Poe say in the film something about light speed skipping to Chewie and its insinuated that what they are doing is a result of Rey making her own modifications to the Falcon?

 

Rey says "You can't lightspeed skip the Falcon" and points out that the compressor was down. This is implied to be why it comes back on fire.

It's not clear if that means that you can only not safely skip the Falcon because of the compressor problem. And I don't think Rey is ever portrayed as having adapted the Falcon specifically to lightspeed-skip.

The Visual Dictionary does say that Poe has "mastered lightspeed-skipping".

I would speculate he's done it lots of times in X-Wings, but he's never lightspeed-skipped the Falcon specifically before, and nor has Rey.

 

Ah, okay, I did not know that so I definitely stand corrected on that point.

But for me, I still cant buy into this lightspeed skipping. I grit my teeth and resist because I feel there is just too many changes in vectors and distances to be successful - just too many random variables to account for.

It just doesnt feel quite right

 

It reminds me of that scene where Han drops out of hyperspace under the shield of Starkiller Base.

At the time, it was stated that the shield switches off and on - and only in hyperspace, are you fast enough to pass the shield during the millisecond when it is "off".

But in the context of lightspeed skipping, it seems like, in hyperspace, the Falcon can safely pass through solid objects. Which might be an alternative explanation for How It Got Through That Shield.

 

I belive the VD states he did.

How do we know that? For all we know it joined the hyperspace chase of the Resistance fleet not long after, or even with, Hux's task force.

Actually, since it was the ship with the tracking system I can't imagine that it was'nt involved with the chase the whole time.

All SW ships capable of hyperspace have navicomputers - including the Falcon.

Holdo was flying one massive object into anouther, even larger, object that was sitting still. There was no algorithms nessesery behind "point and accelerate" except perhaps timing the jump correctly (but even then it might just be a matter of their was'nt enought distance between them for the Rad to have time to fully enter hyperspace.)

I'm pretty sure the Regular FO Ties have hyperdrives as well.

The movie seemed to imply (by lumping it in with the other things he knows that Finn and Rey find shady) that it was a trick he picked up when he was a spice runner.

 

Nerd nitpick: no, they don't. That's one of the things X-Wings have astromechs for.

 

NEEEERRRDDDD!!!!!

But yes, in all seriusness your right*, my bad. The point is still stands that the Falcon does have one.

*(though i'm sure, with the myrid of incosistencies that exist in this francises, that somewhere in either canon or legends one could find an example of X-wings jumping without a droid somewhere if they cared to waste the time looking)

 

You don't have to look that far. Rey traveled from Ahch-To to Exegol in Red 5 without a droid. But of course she's a Jedi and can use her Force instincts to navigate hyperspace.

 

Hahaha!

I was actually trying to think of an example from the movies, and its funny how i miss the one from the one i've seen the most recently.

Though in all honesty that X-wing should'nt have flown to begin with, let alone jumped to hyperspace without an astromech (it arguably also should'nt have been called Red 5 either)

 

Except, we haven't been able to figure out how to get our ships up to relativistic speeds: E=mc^2

If it is common enough to be recognizable, why isn't there a defense against it?

The Falklands War was in 1982. The Royal Navy didn't need to nuke Argentina's navy because they had nuclear powered subs. Also, fighting over a small rock way down south is hardly the existential threat that would require a nuke. The Royal Navy does believe in proportionality, I believe.

Thanks to Holdo (and Hux), we know such a thing is both possible and a known risk to any large combatant. Even though the probability of it being used is low (like nuclear weapons), because the damage could be catastrophic (like nuclear war), some sort of risk controls should be in place. The US has launch detection satellites, hardened facilities, redundant communications, ballistic missile subs, etc. all as a means to guard against a nuclear attack. Where are those kind of controls in the GFFA against a hyper space attack vehicle? Why didn't as soon as the Raddus commence its turn, the First Order take any sort of defensive measures against what could be an impending hyper space attack?

If you go with the "Hux is an idiot" defense, you just make the heroes look stupid as they can't find a way to gain the upper hand against an idiot except by kamikaze-ing their last capital ship.

If you go with the "it was a one in a million" defense, you make Holdo look stupid because, instead of taking a 100% probability of success path of putting the Raddus between the First Order and the escaping ships, she chooses to buy a Lotto ticket.

And, that's just this one situation. We also know cloaking devices are a thing in the GFFA. Take a bunch of rocks, equip them with cloaking devices, astromechs and hyper drives and you would have yourself a mine field that would swiss cheese any fleet that approached. Why didn't the Republic have something like that around Coruscant when the Separatists attacked?

The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

 

There is. It's called shooting the ships before they accelerate.

So do the navies of the GFFA, as far as we can tell (with the notable exception of the Final Order and their fleet of baby Eclipses)

Planatery shields, gravity well projectors, anti-orbital weapons and sensors capable of detecting ships jumping to hyperspace (which it stands to reason could also detect ships coming out of hyperspace)

It's a known tactic, but from what we know its hardly common, difficult to do and (like kamikazie attacks in real life) are'nt something sane peaple generally do.

They did. Hux ordered them to fire as soon as he (and the others) relized what was happening. It was just too late at that point. Before that they though she was just turning to run and draw their attention away.

How would you purpose Holdo have saved the escape pods? If she had just put the Raddus between them and the Supremacy it would have just been one big target with no weapons and failing shields that probobly would'nt have been able to stand up to one determined volley.

Not a defense, since that's the in-universe explanation for why its not common.

And given how ungodly massive the Supremacy is, how close the Raddus was and the fact that the latter ship was standing still, in that one instance the one-in-a-million had become 100 percent; there was no way in hell she was gonna miss.

Cloaked mines? You say? Tell me more...


Seriusly though, aside from the fact that cloaking devices (ship-based ones) are, as far as we've been shown, a rare thing in the GFFA, and are not a technology that's totally infalible, whose to say nobody ever tried that? (minus the part about them being equipped with hyperdrives, becuse how is it a minefield if your luanching it through space to other planets/at fleets?)

(And its possible there was a minefield around Coruscant during the CW, though it doubt it was cloaked, since i can't imagine any reason for their not to be)

 

'Course they are. By virtue of you being here typing that on your keyboard. They weren't, we'd all be dust.

Nothing wrong with the US or Russia or Britain or France having these things. It's the apocalypse cultists & theocrats you need to keep them out of the hands of.

 

There are diffrent levels of sane and rational then apocalypse cultists and theocrats.

Listen man, I am an American; we deep fry everything, we allow Florida to exist and we cancelled Firefly. We're not sane.