ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

I'm not really talking about the people who don't like it, I'm on about the people that somehow didn't even know that sexual tension was a part of the dynamic, which surprises me since I don't think it was subtle at all, and I didn't even see Reylo before TLJ.

Should've been even less subtle and kept stuff like this in I guess.

 

You... don't think there was any hint at a redemptive story for Kylo in the future going by TLJ?

Come on.

He was given a semi-tragic backstory with Luke.
He spared both Leia and Rey from death at different points in the film.
He showed curiosity and I suppose lust regarding the inexplicable connection with Rey, rather than hate.

I would agree his arc in TLJ ends any hope of him being redeemed any time soon, but to say JJ came out of nowhere with this angle is pretty naive.
RJ just wasn't allowed to redeem him yet Imo. Just a theory of mine.
And he was a little ham-fisted in his attempt to make Kylo truly sympathetic, so it gets a little lost in translation.

Btw is English your first language?
Just wondering.

I disagree.

"You failed him by thinking his decision was already made. It wasn't."

Rey is rejecting him in TLJ of course.
But it ends ambiguously like I said earlier.


Pulling this from another thread:

Seriously? I'm not saying you have to like it but RJ's intentions were pretty clear. He just executed it badly.

 

If I take some pictures from other parts of the OT and put them next to scenes from other parts of the ST in order to support my personal headcannon, does that make me right as well?

Hell, Kylo's not even kneeling becuse he's "broken" he's kneeling becuse he's picking something up of the ground. And his expression is'nt even sad, its just neutral. Like wut?

I went golfing with him the other day, and he use one of his drivers.

He picked her up and carried her. There are only so many ways to do that with a person, especially in a way that is comfortable to both peaple.

And Kylo is neither her groom, nor (at that point) a hero. He's a man taking her by force after assualting her and probing her mind. I'm suprised that someone could read that scene as romantic. Like "oh, he just assaulted her. So sweet how he carried her afterwards. Such a nice guy."

I don't doubt Adam Driver is strong, but it would be far easier for him to carry Daisy "bridal style*" then to say, throw her over his shoulder - and far more comfortable for her. If anything the scene came out like that for pratical, out-of uniform purposes, rather then to foreshadow some in-unverse narritive (especially since there was nothing suggesting a romance story in TFA and, if if you want to think there was one in TLJ the trilogy had no overaching planning so any setup would be coincidental)

*Which doesn't even have romantic origins.

It continues also a custom at this very day for the bride not of herself to pass her husband's threshold, but to be lifted over, in memory that the Sabine virgins were carried in by violence, and did not go in of their own will. - Plutarch

I have the movie poster for ANH were Leia is showing some leg and posing suggestivly that was approved by GL. Was that forshadowing for her getting put in a slave costume in RTOJ.

Your reading to much into things. That Abrams decided to make a kiss appear out of nowhere dos'nt prove you were right the whole time, it just makes him a moron who chose to pander to peaple rather then craft a coherent movie.

Not every movie is a romance (nor every book, for that matter).

1; that's a deleted scenes, and delete scenes are'nt canon unless there restored to the film in an offical cut.
2; It proves nothing, other that Luke *thinks* Rey is pysically attracted to Ben. It certinaly dos'nt hint that there in love, and it certinly does'nt forshadow romance. No more then me telling my roomate I think she only went into a Kohls becuse the woman who went in before her had a nice ass means she and that girl are going to get married.

What other parts? That they touched hands? That she maybe thought he was hot? That he picked her up one time?

Peaple read the dynamic just fine.

At most Rey felt a pysical attraction to Ben. There was no romance, and narritive reason to justify a kiss. She maybe thought he was hot and they were connected through the force, that's it.

JJ wanted to please everyone with TROS, and to please the Reylo's he put in the kiss. There was no buildup to it, and it made no sense.

All of those hint a a redemtive story, yes, but when push came to shove he chose to reject that redemption; the movie was crafted so that peaple would think he would change, but then turned that on its head by having him chose not to; it's a parellel to Vader.

I'm not saying that someone only gets one chance at redemption or it negated him being reedemed in-universe later, I'm saying that the narritive intent that he would not be is pretty clear. The narritive had him reject his chance and set him up to be the final villian (which, IMO, would have been much better then we got)

Yes, it is. Sorry for the occasonial mispelling but, no offense, I don't find a internet forum really worthy of the extra effort to make sure every little word is spelt correctly; that's more for paperwork and other things I need to spell correctly not.

Then agian, I'm an American, so some peaple would probobly argue that my English is wrong.

That was before he rejected the redemption, and is framed with Luke telling her (correctly) that things were not going to go the way you thought.

Yeah, he was pretty clear.

There was no romance, and Kylo was supposed to be the final, main villian who did not get reedeemed. This could not be more clear unless Kylo broke the third wall to tell you at the end.

I'm honestly, geniunly suprised how anyone could think the ending of the film was ambigious in what was happing or what it was setting up. This thread is certinly the first place I've seen it argued.

If I had to guess I'd say this is a case of peaple seeing something they wanted to see, thinking they were correct in spite of all evidence and narritive intent and then lucking out becuase JJ wanted to make a sucessful movie so badly he started trying to please every vocal group of fans he could see*

*just like how the peaple who hated TLJ got a soft-retcon of that film and the peaple who wanted Rey to be someone despite TLJ settling the issue quite clearly got her to be both a Palpatine and a Skywalker.

 

I thought this was really sweet.

 

What exactly is he saying? I miss the words just before 'pretty eyes'. It does sound cheesy though so no wonder they left it out.

 

"You opened yourself up to the dark side for a pair of pretty eyes"

 

Haha, burn. Way to go, Luke, to not upset the lass more.

 

"You opened yourself to the Dark Side for a pair of pretty eyes."

Which peaple say is supposed to suggest a romance or something, I dunno. At most it just means Luke is criticising her becuse he thinks she's pysically attracted to Kylo.

Luke's not even correct, BTW, becuse her being drawn to the Dark Side had nothing to do with Kylo and she only reached out to him after her experiance in the sinkhole-that-looks-like-a-butthole. So not only is it just Luke's opinion, it also one based on false assumptions on his part (and not canon anyway since its a deleted scene)

 

That doesn't mean he can't score bullseye though. Sometimes opinions are right for all the wrong reasons. Luke is strong with the force. Maybe it was just [booms like Finn] ... a feeling.

 

It isn't a random comparison though.

Earlier:
Luke rejected Vader's outstretched black-gloved hand and refused to turn.
Earlier:
Rey rejected Kylo's outstretched black-gloved hand and refused to turn.

The screencap scenes - This is the last onscreen scene of the conflicted primary antagonist in the second movie of the trilogy. In both movies.

Vader moments before the Millenium Falcon escapes reaches out through the force to Luke and tells him "It is your destiny" to turn.
Kylo and Rey communicate through the force like this all throughout TLJ and TROS.

Luke and his friends escape on the Millenium Falcon (being piloted by Chewie).
Rey and her friends escape on the Millenium Falcon (being piloted by Chewie I believe).
These are the last times Vader and Kylo see their light-side counterparts until the next film.
Vader failed to get Luke. There is now a spark of curiosity in Vader about Luke for reasons other than Galactic conquest.
Kylo is clearly conflicted still.


"You have too much of your father's heart. Young Solo."
"I killed Han Solo!"
"And the deed split you to the bone."

"Strike me down and I'll always be with you. Just like your father."

The dice disappear in the next Kylo scene. A biting reminder of everything Kylo left behind.

"I see through the cracks in your mask. You're haunted by what you did to your father."

"Dad..."
"I know."

You and I watched different movies.

The last frame of Kylo in the film is that still of him sitting on the ground with his head hung low. Not picking something up.

Fair point. But you do agree there is attraction?

I agree in TLJ it is to subvert the norm presented by Vader's own story.
I just disagree that with one movie left after that they couldn't have still been setting up redemption for Ben.

I'm curious, what are you basing your claim on that Rian Johnson stated Kylo was now the main bad guy and wouldn't be redeemed.
Do you have a quote?

I thought you might say that.

Luke rushed to face Vader. Han was captured but it didn't result in his friends dying. "Always in motion is the future."

Rey rushed to redeem Kylo when she saw a vision that he wouldn't bow before Snoke. Kylo saw Rey would fight beside him. He didn't remain loyal to Snoke, but after saving Rey and killing Snoke he just chose acquiring more power for himself, and they only actually fought together briefly.
"This is not going to go the way you think!" - is proven true because he doesn't turn back yet, it takes until the final film, and there are consequences for Kylo (and Rey).

Post RJ's directly saying that please.

 

I have a different take on it.

'Your parents threw you away like garbage' is not what happened to Rey; rather, what Ben/Kylo thought about Han&Leia&himself. He's projecting.

I think the same is happening to Luke here. He opened himself to Dark Side for a pair of pretty eyes.

There's a woman screaming inside Ben's head in the hut. We don't see her, but Luke does the same thing Ben/Kylo did in TFA when Rey talked about Vader during the mindprobe; according to the script: 'KYLO REN SUDDENLY WITHDRAWS HIS HAND, as if her face were FIRE HOT'.

Then Luke 'opens himself to Dark Side', for the 'briefest moment of pure instinct', and ignites his lightsaber.

Also, similar to his reaction when Vader threatens his sister in ROTJ - the only time we've seen Luke losing control. I mean, maybe there was a personal reason for his reaction in the hut too. And the deleted line would be him projecting his own past weakness on Rey the same way Ben/Kylo did with his.

Not Rey or Ben/Kylo's story, really, and that's why I think it got cut. Although, what was that woman doing inside Ben's head to begin with?

 

Wut.
Kylo's redemption was marked out from early on.
In fact the predictability of it is one of the common criticisms against the character.

"You cannot deny the truth that is your family."
"You're so right!"

Kylo kills Lor San emphasising he doesn't deny his path follows his grandfather's.


"Show me again the power of the darkness... and I will finish what you started."
Kylo ends up giving in to the "sentiment" he and Snoke cited as Vader's weakness, just like Vader/Anakin.

Plus ironically saving a loved one from death where Vader couldn't.

Imo harkens back to the Revenge of the Sith script moment from Qui-Gon's ghost - "It is a state acquired by compassion not greed". Kylo gets nothing for sacrificing himself for Rey.

 

I remember this scene so well from when I first watched it. I also remember how I thought that mask was so stupid all the way throughout the movie - I guess just like most everyone else at that point - but the delivery of that line is just amazing. Driver did amazing things with his voice, 'without' a face and Ridley did some really stupid things in contrast: "Kylo Ren is strong with the force and he's out to kill everyone" and "The force is there to lift rocks". Some revered scenes there that could have been done so much better. I think overall, Driver delivered a stronger performance in the same given conditions than Ridley did.

There are some people who can do amazing things with their voices, like Tom Hiddleston. His audio work is fantastic.
/drooling off

 

People really still in denial about TLJ huh? I feel like Rian could literally say he was building up a potential romance between them and you'd still find a way to deny it.

But on the other hand, I guess to a certain extent you're right because there's no actual way of definitively knowing what his intention was for that ending because he didn't make IX. But considering the way he's talked about the dynamic since then, I'd have definitely put money on him following through with it.

 

You do know that movies are intentional right? That characters and scenes and music are all at the very least made in a way to suggest a feeling or reinforce themes?

I gave easy easy examples of things they could do otherwise (stormtroopers drag her away) but no, they had him carry her away.

So, you are arguing that because the bridal carry was not originally romantic...it isn't now? Ok...

For a 'kiss out of nowhere' a whole lotta people saw it coming.

And I gave a specific example about a very romanticized scene sold as a poster- not a general catch all about every poster in the trilogy.

Yeah? So? The ST is one, so I fail to see your point.

 

True, I've wondered how much of that is voice effects and how much it is Adam Driver.
It is fitting for Kylo's needed presence.

I liked the mask though, especially with the costume in his first scene.

Another line that sounds good "The girl I've heard so much about."
That delivery sounds hollow, ghostly and a little apathetic.
Pretty ironic knowing where the story goes.

Lol "We need you to bring the Jedi Order back because Kylo Ren is strong with the dark side of the force."

Yeah that was silly.
She was much better under JJ Imo.

 

The costume in The Force Awakens is awesome. He reminds me of something medieval, or like a witch. It's a really sinister costume. I think it was the best look.

 

Oh, I think he would’ve followed through with it, too.

““One of my favorite shots of the movie, is those two fingers touching. That’s the cloest thing we’ll get to a sex scene in a Star Wars movie.”

And on the throne room:
“From his point of view, it’s a very naked, open, emotional appeal,” Johnson said. “It’s his version of, ‘I’m just a girl standing in front of a guy.'”

And all throughout his commentary he talks about how intimate their force scenes are and why it was important to bring AD and DR on the same locations so they could interact face-to-face.

 

Ugh, I love how powerful he was. Like raw and uninhibited. I don’t know I ever felt he was as powerful after all his flashy scenes in TFA.

 

Yes, it seemed pretty obvious, which is why I found the earlier conversation on this thread odd.

I don't believe it is the most romantic story of all time, but the intent for an emotional connection was clearly there.

 

The Snoke/Kylo qoute was before, and was part of establishing Kylo was on the edge between light and dark. By the end of the film he had chosen to take the plunge into the dark

The dice disappered becuse they were an illusion generated by Luke, who had just died in the scene before.

The next two qoutes are from TROS, and dos'nt matter to the narritive TLJ implied. Using JJ's retcons to support false beliefs about RJ's narritive makes no sense.

That's starting to become abundently clear

Um...the dice?

He just had'nt bothered to stand up yet.

I think TLJ implied, maybe, during the shirtless scene that there was a pysical attraction on Rey's part. I know Kylo was obssesed with Rey (not in a good way) starting in TLJ and I know their was a spirtiual" connection through their Force-bond.

But...

What I do deny is that there was a romantic connection. Becuse out of their three breif encounters in TFA all were violient, only two of their personal interactions in TLJ were positive (the final vision and their elevator talk) and the closest Rey hated Kylo througout TROS and only spared his life becuse of Leia sacrafice and becuse she could'nt kill a helpless oppenant. There was not time for them to to build up an actual realtionship and build a real rapport unless this all happened off-screen between TLJ and RTOJ theres no place, there's really no reason to believe Rey should even care about Kylo at all, especially considering what he does to not only her and her freinds and the fact that he killed Han in cold blood right in front of her. I don't think their force-bond is enough to justify them having a realtionship either, becuse nothing we're shown from it supports it and there only positive interaction through was A; breif and B; ended up leading to a situation were Kylo tried to get Rey to stand by while he friends and his mother died.

Is this fair to say?

And isten, if the some later source comes along and says that it's canon that loved Ben, I'd accept that. I would'nt like it, I would'nt agree with it, but I'd accept it. Becuse honestly, there's a lot of things in Star Wars that I've disagreed a lot more and I've accepted becuse I'm not so petty as to argue agianst canon policy.

Evidently they could, since that's what JJ ended up doing. But that was'nt what RJ presented.

The movie.

Also, see a few replies below

Yeah, kinda the point.

If he he had actually cared about Rey don't you think he would have chose her over power?

He wanted Rey to be by his side, but in the end, when given the choice between her and power, he chose power. Becuse he cared about her sooo much.

And he did'nt kill Snoke to save her. That was just a byproduct.

He walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke and look for an opportunity, but he doesn’t yet know exactly what the mechanism is and what his opportunity is going to be. But he’s gone in there with the intent of, whether it’s now, or whether it’s later, or whenever it is … When he sees that opportunity with that lightsaber next to him and sees Snoke distracted, he goes for it.

It was timing. It had nothing to do with wanting to save Rey. He could have been holding Finn or Hux and it would have worked just fine for him.

The only things I can ever recall from him speaking of the romance is a video on either instagram or youtube were a fan asks him if Reylo is a think and he jokingly says "it's all in the movie." and French interview were it states he changed the hand scene from how it orignally was becuase he wanted the audiance to belive that romance was possible (and I'd say he was pretty sucessful at tricking peaple with that)*

*This is a fairly common theme in the film, and one of the things I like best about it, as he makes you belive something will occur; Ben's redemption, the possibility of a romance, help coming for the Resistance at Crait, Finn making the steryotypical heroic sacrafic that saves the day - only to pull the rug out from under you. Other peaple hated it, of course, hench the "SuBVertInG YoUr ExPECtatIoNs" meme.

As for Kylo becoming the main villian.

It's behind a paywall and requires someone to turn addblocker off if they want to view it otherwise, and since that's not something everyone is comfortable doing I'll post the except.

Johnson: [Laughs.] It's been a combination of both of those things. When I was writing the movie, I was doing it while they were shooting "The Force Awakens." So it wasn't like I was reading all these theories online and being at my typewriter and going "Ha! Ha! Gotcha!" It was me coming up with a story. I was writing purely from a personal reaction to the script of "The Force Awakens" and what they were shooting. Snoke, for example, I probably would have done the same thing regardless.

Guerrasio: Oh yeah?

Johnson: Yeah. Snoke's fate came entirely out of Kylo's arc and realizing that in this movie the most interesting thing to me was for Kylo to be ascendant — to start by knocking the shaky foundation out from Kylo's feet and then building him back up into a complicated but credible villain by the end of it. And one that Rey now has a more complex relationship with than just "I hate you, I want to kill you."

The film was about setting Kylo up as the big bad. He was already a villian, so if there would be no reason for Johnson to do what he did if he did'nt want to set him as the villian.

It was Kylo's villian origin story, so to speak. His Joker.

That was a joke.

Which just means he wanted the scene to be emotional and show they had a connection; which, BTW, nobody is denying they did.

The force scenes were intimate; intimate does not equal romance though. You know who else has an intimate relationship with each other? Me and my cousins.

That dos'nt mean were going to ****.

And having Adam and Daisy on set together dos'nt mean anything to your argument, it just means he wanted to go the extra mile to make sure the scenes between them seemed real.

Hmm...

Your saying that you think there was a woman in the vision Luke saw in the TLJ flashback that he cared about? And that was part of the reason why he was so angry?

That would be intresting thing for future media to explore, but their were a lot of screams in that vision and, it's worth noting, that when Luke dreams of being with a woman in the TLJ novelization, it's someone he knew from his childhood on Tatooine - Camie - who as far as we know he never saw agian after leaving Tatooine.

The possibility of a redemption was presented in TFA and TLJ, and he rejected it both times. The second time with narritive finality.

There was no overaching plan to the trilogy, and that anyone could think that having watched all three movies is pretty funny. JJ and the powers that be, IMO, are just covering their asses when they say their was - either that or they kept changin the plan every five seconds as they went along.

Becuse he's the bad guy? Not every example of someone charrying someone that way in fiction has romantic overtones. Do you think Hagrid and Harry were in love? What about the Doctor and Bill Potts? Or Hodor and Bran Stark? What about Scotty and his nephew?

Also, you seem to be (and from your earlier statments, have been from the first time you saw the movie) zeroing in on the manner in which he carried her while forgetting the way it was framed? Do you remember the scene before? Or the way Han and Finn were acting as she was taken away? Or what about the next scene with between Kylo and Rey? The scene was'nt framed as romantic, it was framed as an abduction (or kidnapping, or capture, or whatever you want to call it) and there was nothing that presented it as such, so why would you think it was?

I'm saying that it's not really as romantic as you seem to think it. (by which, I mean, it's not romantic at all)

A lot of peaple did'nt. Which is why its so maligned by both fans and critics.

Frankly, you guys should be proud of yourself that you made your opinions so load and so prominant that JJ noticed when he was looking for fans to try and please. You guys got lucky, but that does'nt mean you were right the whole time.

And I returned the example right back at you.

If you want to argue "Kylo is carrying Rey on a poster and that confirms they were going to kiss two more movies down the line" then I can say "Leia showed leg on a poster and that confirms she was going to get naked two more movies down the line."

This trilogy did'nt even have a plan, so how would they even know to forshadow anything with the poster and that scene?

"Guy met girl. Guy captures and tortures girl. Guy trys to murder girl. Guy stalks and bittles girl. Guy briefly teams up with girl but then betray girl. Guy tries to kill girl gain. Guy turns good for five minates of screen time and writer forces kiss."

It's a tale as old as time.

"Starkiller Base. Peaple, it's gonna be YUGH! Tremendous! I talked to Snoke yesterday - great guy, by the way, Snoke - and he tells me it's gonna be great. And you know what? You know what, peaple? The Hutts are gonna pay for it! Fantastic! The Resistance wants to tell you that the Hutts won't pay, that I can't make them pay, but you know what, I can."

What is romantic about touching hands? Emotional and demonstrating they had a connection, yeah sure, but romantic?

Like, maybe if someone has Cheirophila.

 

I see what you're saying with raw. I think he did improve on it by TROS. He was a lot more confident in himself. It felt to me that he was no longer 'the boy with the large lips, massive satellite ears and stupid hair behind a silly mask having temper-tantrums worthy of a five-year-old' but a seasoned, focused 'leader'.Or maybe that was just an accumulation of my understanding of his character. I was reflecting last night that all of his fight movements are really big. Beginning of TROS: he's standing right in front of Palpatine, yet he brings his lightsaber full circle. I remember there is one scene in the forest in TLJ where he steps back and even first time watching I was struck how much distance that one step would have covered. He brings so much energy into the fights. I'm sure the others got rather tired during the fight scenes with him.

The costumes are generally great though. In TROS it constantly bugged me however that Rey's clothes are always clean. #fwp

@K2771991 "What is romantic about touching hands? Emotional and demonstrating they had a connection, yeah sure, but romantic?" You need to get out more.

I must say, at the shirtless scene all I could think was "wtf, how did he got ALL that muscle behind that sleek costume all this time!"
Romantic feelings can happen for any reason: physical attraction, simple circumstance.
My line of thought on that one is the force bond.by TROS they connect at will whenever and wherever. When someone is around you all the time, it's difficult to stop thinking about them or factor them into your thinking. To me, that's the kind of romance they had with the possible physical attraction by the added hand-touching scene and possibly the shirtless one. It's pretty hard to tell from Rey's face at that time how she feels but it could easily have grown on her over time.

 

Yeah, one of the reasons. I don't think it was a vision, but a memory. There are two screams. A man and a woman . Also, lightsabers are heard. Maybe some misunderstanding, like that of the hut. 'Too much Vader in him'. Luke knowing about it in the worst possible moment. (or, if it was not a memory and there was no woman, maybe a vision of Leia and Han being killed)

RJ's instagram, March 2017:

The best candidate for pretty eyes+Luke, in TROS, is Bliss. TROS walks on Luke's past footsteps: Pasaana, Exogol, the wayfinders, Ochi, etc. Then Zorii Bliss (we get to see her eyes, but nothing more) sees Rey's lightsaber and has a sudden change of mind. 'Not that you care, but I think you are ok'

Whatever Luke saw in Ben's head, Luke was awake and sensed the danger as real. That thing about Luke dreaming with Camie was just that, a dream. It had to do with Rey, in any case: