ST Hyperspace Use In The ST

Is'nt this more or less what happens, though, just minus the big ships part? The TIE track the Falcon but it eventually shakes them.

Really, we already had hyperspace tracking via homeing beacons. I've always just assumed this new kind tracks via "gravitational fields in subspace" or something like that - like a space version of sonar detecting underwater movement. It's dos'nt seem so unbelivable to me, at least when looked at like that

 

the only thing about Gravity wells in Rebels that I can remember was the Empire created a ship with a gravity well device that could pull ships out of Hyperspace and prevent them from going to hyperspace. Nothing lore breaking or in anyway would affect making jumps in atmosphere.

From my understanding it's possible but dangerous. The whole thing with Han in A New Hope saying they needed the cooridantes from the Nav computer was because since a Star, Planet or what ever has a large gravitational pull it could pull you out of Hyperspace while inside the planet or Star.

Han in TFA manages to drop out of Hyperspace in between the Force field and the planets surface which would be very dificult since you have a tenth of a second to do that.

 

Yes. A Star Destroyer equipped with gravity wells.

In the episode Sabine states.

When I was at the academy, they were developing a new cruiser with gravity well projectors powerful enough to pull a ship out of hyperspace.

So its not simply a matter of creating a gravity well, but rather a gravity well of specific intensity.

 

If you've never seen Star Wars and you are watching it for the first time, you really have no idea who Greedo is when he shows up. Realistically, at that point in the movie, you're not even sure who Han is.

George Lucas made these movies for 7 to 10 year old children. They aren't going to know about smugglers and bounty hunters. That will all be new to them. But, they do know that killing is wrong.

The bar encounter is between two civilians. If Greedo never shoots, there would always be a question if what Han did was just or if it was murder. Lucas doesn't want that question to exist. It's his GFFA, he gets to make that choice. Having Greedo shoot first makes Han's shot indisputably self defense.

Lucas Star Wars is morally simple. It's been derided for that since its release in 1977. But, that's what it is - just a fairy tale of good versus evil. Where good is really truly good and evil is really truly evil. Black and white, no grey, no complexity. He was upfront about it. That's why the movies all start with, "A long time ago..." That's why Vader wears black. It's why he has Artoo call 3PO, "a mindless philosopher."

It is always tempting to make our childhoods grow with us. It's OK to out grow Star Wars. It's also perfectly OK to remember your childhood and Star Wars place in it. But, one shouldn't try to make Star Wars something it is not and not supposed to be.

Was that really why she did it? Or, was she just a failed military commander seeking to avoid dishonor by choosing a cowardly quick and easy path?

Again, if you follow your logic to its conclusion, what you are saying is that all soldiers by the very act of choosing to be soldiers are effectively committing suicide. A position you've already rightfully rejected. What you are failing to accept is that nihilist view is inherent in Holdo's act and must also be rejected.

Again, Rian Johnson put Holdo in that situation. He didn't have to but, he did.

TLJ is an attempted take down of Star Wars. That's why the critics love it. Their world view is that there are no good wars. All soldiers are either deluded or evil or both. Holdo's "maneuver" (properly understood as a suicide attack) fits that nihilistic philosophy.

The problem is that both of you are confusing ends and means. Yes, in the end, some Hoth soldiers and Holdo die. But, they arrive at those ends by very different means. The Hoth soldiers never give up (until they receive the order to retreat). Holdo rage quits.

 

Yeah, but my point is it should stay novel and hard to do. I don't want it to be a thing that every ship has. To have it on ties really hamstrings future space battles.

TROS struggles on many levels with this. It's one thing to have a death star, or build another at great effort, or learn how to use the technology + harnessing a stars energy to do it bigger. But when every stupid ship in a fleet has death stars built in, my eyes roll. Why can't we just do that on new republic ships in the future? It's that easy, let's make sure no FO or empire ever arises again. If ships can destory planets, they can certainly blow away any ship, shield or no, in a single shot.

The death star concept worked because it was special and hard to do. Same with hyperspace tracking. Same with a Holdo-maneuver.

You can have exceptions to rules. Making the exceptions the rule makes it hard to continue the narrative.

 

Planets, blk holes, stars, and supernovas are the main things that make hyperspace travel dangerous. I dunno what ep of tcw features in atmosphere jumps, but that also broke the rules of established canon. The "funniest" thing about the current state of things is that the books appear to take all of this seriously, while the films go the wacky route.

The thrawn book adheres to the rules established by previous lore. As it's been since 2015, book authors appear to care more about telling stories that fit into sw and its lore, instead of ass pulling stuff when the plot needs something.

 

But Han knows who Greedo is. That's clear from the dilogue.

What is "Star Wars" supposed to be? Ask fifty different peaple on this very forum and you'll probobly get fifty different answers.

That's what the movie presents, and nobody in it is viewing her as anything less then a hero.

It's also worth noting that despite her poor relationship with Poe and her mishanding of the situation with him, we're not given any reason to think she's a bad commander - Leia clearly has enough respect for her abilities to have her fairly high up in the Resistance's leadership, and she seems to have a pretty decent repuation based on Poe's initial reaction to her. Not to mention her original plan, in and of itself, was sound and would have worked had it not been for Poe's own plan coming into conflict with it.

I'm not sure were this whole "nihilist view" thing is even coming from.

Oh god grief. No offense, but do you realize how silly this sounds?

You don't have to like the movie, but its absurd to think it was an "attempted takedown" of Star Wars just becuse Johnson's artistic image dos'nt fit with your notion of what the francise should be.

That's not a message the film portrarys at all.

Rage quits?

She was desperate and had no other viable options.

Fair enough, I suppose - though its worth noting no technology is infaliable, and the invention of a new means of detection usually leads, in no short order, to the invention of countermesures.

You build a twenty foot high wall, I build a twenty one foot ladder, and all that (an oversimplification, as hyperdrives are not walls, but you get the gist)

If anything, by this logic the books would be breaking the established rules, since TCW was, aside from the films, the only thing that was canon right from the start.

 

@Blastaar
Can't Say I've read the Thrawn novel. Did it just adhere to lore as you see it, or is there specific exposition on the rules of hyperspace, explicit or implicit?

@K2771991
Well, they should have/should do that. Come up with a defeat to the tracking, but make it a subplot, not something that just seems like a retcon. They should do the same for the now common planet killing weapons.

 

Honestly, I'm sure they will.

As for the planet-killers, Palpatine's entire fleet (possible sans one ship) was destroyed, and we have no way to know if any blueprints exist to build more. So it could be the Xystons will end of as one-off terror weapons, like the World Devestators in the EU.

 

@K2771991
I'm sure they will too. I just think they made things too easy when they didn't have to and didn't get around to undoing it in the boundaries of the ST/saga. Future "fixes", that I will be happy to go along with, will forever be "retcons." I just would rather avoid this sense that any new storyteller gets to undo the last one's decisions, even if it makes sense.

 

It was very clear as to the established rules. There were fights where a star destroyer was disabled by Ion fire, thus it started to fall towards the planet the battle had been taking place over. Thrawn's SD (the chimera) had to tractor beam the cruiser out of the gravity well of the planet so that it could jump to hyper space. All of this happens while the inner monologue of characters explain the situation clear as day. The attention to lore is just one small reason the thrawn books are so great.

The reason for "rules" when telling stories is so that the writer is forced to be creative in order to make certain things happen that he/she wants to happen. If it weren't for the rules of hyperspace in SW, GL could've made the escape from tatooine and bespin, be dull affairs with zero stakes. However, establish that you can't make the jump if you're too close to the gravity pull of a planet, and suddenly you have exciting scenes like the battle of hoth and han's escape from tatooine.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. TCW broke lore rules established decades prior. The OT and even the PT were very clear on how hyperspace jumps work. As I said, there was a reason you didn't see amidala's ship jump to hyperspace right out of the naboo hanger, or the rebel transports jump before they even reached outter space. If it were that easy, they wouldn't have needed to bother with an ion canon or a ground defense strategy.

 

Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

That is the sole line in either of the first two trilogies that says anything about hyperspace rules, and it says nothing about gravity wells or not being able to jump within a planet's atmosphere. The only "lore" from decades prior that TCW broke is Legends, which is'nt relevent to Disney canon.

And Lucas was heavily involved in TCW to the point of fastidiousness, if he had a problem with jumping into hyperspace while in-atmo, he would have had them change it. He did'nt and never said anything afterwards as far as I know, so I think its safe to say he did'nt really think it broke any "rules."

It's not "that easy." It's not impossible to jump in-atmo, but it is risky and dangerous - why would you risk damage (or destruction) of the ship or the hanger your jumping out of unless you absolutly had to do it?

You can floor it through your garage door and then drive down your lawn at top speed to get to the road instead of using the driveway, but that's still a stupid thing to do.

 

Exposition dialog isn't the only way to establish something you know. Just going by the films, if jumping in atmosphere isn't established, then why didn't the rebels just jump from hoth instead of fighting and losing a bunch of people? Why didn't han just jump from mos isley instead of risking capture from the two SDs in orbit? If padme and friends had jumped from the naboo hanger, they could've saved themselves a lot of time and trouble.


How would flying out of the hanger and immediately jumping, destroy or damage it? Better question, looking at what they were facing....why would they care?


EDIT: Another thing. You feel that atmospheric jumps are something the lore has never established. So, how does a planetary blockade work? How did the trade federation set up a blockade around naboo if ships could just jump right past them to enter or exit the planet? Why did the phantom menace depict a ship having to "break" the blockade before being able to make the jump to lightspeed? Why was there tension as far as R2 being fast enough to repair the damage in time for them to jump as soon as they were clear? Why go through all of that, instead of just jumping the instant they had clear skies in atmosphere? In short, again, how does a blockade work if you can just skip right past them by exiting or entering hyperspace while in atmosphere?

 

Heh, this is a pretty out-there take.

They're civilians, yes. Civilians with no non-civilians immediately around to intevene & keep the peace. One guy's very up-front about intending to waste the first guy, the first guy decides to be quicker on the draw. That's not a "how dare you, Han?!" or a "poor Greedo", that's a "don't pick a fight you're not going to win, Greedo had it coming".

Kids get that.

Star Wars is "morally simple"? Yeah, the "moral simplicity" here is Han was justified in corpsifying Greedo. No ifs, no buts, kill-or-be-killed.

As for "we don't know who Greedo is", that's neither here not there. Han does. It's right there in dialogue. Everything out of Greedo's mouth paints him as a cold dead-eyed prize-seeker killer. Han up until that point is painted as, sure, a ne'er-do-well, but not on that level of viciousness. He's a supplies-and-drugs-runner, not a hitman.

Greedo catches a blaster bolt first? That's life. This stuff is in every Western or Samurai movie over a century, people got it then, they get it now.

 

Engine backwash and shockwaves. Do you know how fast these ships must be going?

Also, in the TCW episode the frigate that was about to jump was being pulled into the Resolute's hanger at the time, and Yularen had to make sure they released it before it jumped becuse he seemed pretty sure that it would have pulled the larger ship into hyperspace with it; you jump you might just pull **** around you into hyperspace with you (or accidently pull a Holdo Manuver by smashing into some air traffic on the way out).

Han - Watch the thrust, we're goin' out of here at lightspeed
REY - From inside the hangar? Is that even possible?
HAN - I never ask that question until after I've done it.

This is something that's not just uncommon. It's so uncommon Han had not only never done it, but was'nt even sure it was possible. (and Finn seems equally as shocked as Rey is above when he learns Han's about to jump out of hyperspace in atomosphere). You have to ask youself, why is this so uncommon that even a career smuggler prone to making risky moves has never tried it or heard of it happening in his many decades-long career?

CASSIAN - Get us out of here! Punch it!
K-2SO - I’m not very optimistic about our odds.
CASSIAN - Let’s not, K. Come on! Punch it.

K-2 considered the odds of sucess of making the in-atmo jump on Jedda to be low. So this reinforces the idea.

I think your misunderstanding just how dangerous this is. You jump in atmo, your probobly not going survive. It's a stupid, dangerous thing to do, and both Padme and the Rebels at Hoth had better chances of survival running the blockades.

Agian, this is such an uncommon thing that Han Solo, by the time he's an old man at the nadir of his career, has neither tried it nor even knows of its possible.

 

So, to summarize, some writers or old non (marginally?) canon novels used scant information from a line of a movie to write rules. For some reason we consider this canon and lore?

The reality is, some ideas that seemed consistent with the couple of things we actually knew about hyperspace were drawn up in a collection of sub-canon writings that that the official creatives reserved the rights to contradict and cancel. Then that exact thing happened to serve stories.

I'm not for a no-rules world building philosophy. I just thing people have gone batty with what the rules are, when they never REALLY knew. And they can't accept exceptions as exceptions even if there are rules. Jedi powers come to mind. Naming and categorizing things force users can do with the force as if they're superpowers. It's alwasy bothered me. Freezing a bolt of energy is no different than exerting energy to raise an object, which is no different than manipulating energy to make lightening. It's all supernatural control of entergy through the energy field that links all energy field to all things. Trying to get upset when the wrong person can "force choke" or use "force lightening" is just comicbook-ization it al.

 

what is the rule that htey are breaking? Nothing in Star Wars has said you can't make a jump to hyperspace in atmosphere. the only reason han mentions planets and such in ANH is because if you fly threw one it will pull you out and kill you. Nothing says you can't make the jump to hyperspace from inside the atmosphere just that it is dangerous

the issue there was the Rebel fleet on Hoth had to move past the Imperial fleet. it was safer to use the ion canon then make the jump.

As for the falcon the issue was the hyperdrive wasn't working on hoth or bespin. hence the tension.

i don't think you understand what Rage quit means. Again she had already planned on letting the first order kill her. Do you undertstand that? She was to lead the FO away and let them kill her. She was already on a sucide mission. But you have no problem with that.

apparently it doesn't since they were able to fly right past them. Why didn't they fly to the other side of the planet and make the jump there where there were no Trade Federation ships?

Same with Hoth. The empire was only on one side of the planet. Why didn't the rebels just fly to the other side?

of course it could be that the ships wanted to make sure that there were no imperial ships in front of them before they made the hyperspace jump so they didn't do a hyperspace ram.

which would be why doing a hyperspace jump in atmosphere would be so dangerous. Think about it if you are going to get to the speed of light even so much as a screw could rip your ship apart. If you are in space there is less of a chance of hitting something. Perhaps why the Falcon could do it in atmosphere is because its shields and htey had someone willing to risk it.

 

I never got this either - the opening of the movie makes it look like the Trade Federation ships are forming a ring around the planet, but why not just go up or over?

The best bet might be their hovering over the populated areas and using fighter patrols to cover the rest of the areas.

I always assumed Death Squadron spread their ships out at different points over the planet. I would think any ships trying to fly out from the ship and cut across the planet to get to a more open avanue of escape would be chased down by TIEs - the Rebel base was in a relativly limited area defended by a shield, so all the Imperials would have to do would be cover the angles around the shield.

Gesh, can you imagine what would have happened had Sully flown into those geese while jumping to lightspeed?

 

Yep.

Trying to make too many rules really breaks Star Wars.
Trying to not have rules makes it silly (planet killers on every ship in a fleet).

 

They broke the blockade. I'm not sure what logic you're pushing by saying it doesn't work. Why didn't they fly to the other side of the planet? As is clearly stated, they had the planet under blockade. That means they had federation ships placed around the planet in order to prevent ships from jumping from naboo, or reaching the surface. It's part of what makes the falcon so special. Han brags about her speed, which allows the ship to escape a planet's gravity well and jump to hyper space before even star destroyers can attack. This event is depicted shortly after the brag.

I asked a question as to the point of a blockade if you could bypass it via hyperspace jumps in atmosphere. That question stands.

We're all clear on the status of the falcon on hoth....in fact, I hadn't even mentioned that ship when referencing the hoth battle.

Things in hyperspace do not affect things in normal space. Otherwise hyperspace travel would be impossible due to the amount of debris in space.

 

they flew in a stragiht line with out firing a weapon or dodging any blasts. They even lost their shields for most of it. The blocade didn't stop them therefore it didn't work.

It also didn't work when they returned.

except they didn't we can clearly see there aren't ships all the way around Naboo.

and I asked whats the point of a blockade if you can fly past it at sublight speeds?

But I did answer you question. the reason they don't is because the risk of hitting something before entering hyperspace thus destroying your ship.

You know that Hyperspace raming happens before you enter hyperspace right? When Holdo hits the FO she isn't in hyperspace.

No he doesn't. Han never says anything about gravity wells. He talks about how he can out run their ships not that he can make hyperspace jumps near gravity wells Not sure why you are making stuff up

i'd say its just trying to act like Star Wars is real and not a movie. We see this all the time from people trying calculate how powerful star wars weapons are based on the visual effects. That's like watching Bad Boys and trying to explain why a gun blows up a car by saying the gun shoots explosive bullets.

I wouldn't say not having rules leads to planet killers on every ship, that's just because of power creeping and bad writers not knowing how to have tension without a bigger threat.

If you think about it Marvel doesn't have this problem. They have tons of physics breaking things but no one makes long youtube videos trying to explain how captain america's shield breaks physics and no one gets angry about it.

 

All the rules about gravity wells etc just turn out to be explanations that were used in the EU, and that fit what we saw. It doesn't mean that an explanation is the rule. Just that it was consistent. Then we should change the explanation when we find that it fails to fit what we see.

Canon is like real-world observation. The EU rules were fine, but when canon contradicted the EU rules, the correct line of thinking is to realize the explanations were wrong and need to be modified - our understanding was not complete and our narrative that we based the rules on was wrong.

So, that means that stories that used those rules are wrong, such is the risk of playing in a sandbox you don't have control over. Shouldn't have been so presumptuous about what the "rules" of somebody else's galaxy are.

 

actually sidious allowed them to return because they wanted the queen to sign the treaty. Exposition and the fact that sidious was posing as her ally in the senate who knew her every move, made all this pretty clear.

Quigon and obi wan escape the fed cruiser by hiding with invasion fleet as it headed to the surface. They then travel (through the planet core) to the capital city on the other side of the planet. When escaping that ordeal, there's yet another fleet of fed ships in orbit. There are trade ships placed around the entire planet.

Blockades exist to prevent ships from reaching a distance far enough to enter hyperspace. Blockades are broken sometimes. X-wings are shot down sometimes, yet the point of the craft, isn't lost on us.

If holdo's ramming occurred before she entered hyperspace.....uh....then why was the damage so wide spread? Why were several ships destroyed? It feels like the goal post has been moved as now all of a sudden, she wasn't in hyperspace. That said, TROS laughably states that its a one in a million chance (even though the movie shows that it happens again over endor.).


I didn't say han said anything about gravity wells. I said that he bragged about the falcon's speed. A fact about the ship that was especially important in their situation where they had to get clear of the planet's gravity well before they could be tractored or destroyed by the stardestroyers. If they could just hyperspace in atmosphere, then the falcon's speed wouldn't have mattered. I can already feel where the mood of this is turning, with you accusing me (in bad faith no less) of "making stuff up". So, this is my last response to you on this. Take care.

To be fair, i get what you're saying. The problem stems from in canon depictions consistently falling in line with "EU explanations". (the thrawn book is in canon though.) When something is consistently depicted in a property, it does become established lore. Example: jedi/sith can deflect laser bolts with their lightsabers. That is something that we've seen across all parts of star wars whether it be videogames, comics, novels, movies, shows, etc. Hyperspace travel had been consistent in star wars, until TFA. I just heard that an episode of TCW depicted in atmosphere jumps. That episode broke with what had been established before hand.

Its really the reason so many people took such an issue with the holdo move. If such a thing, that we see is so destructive, is possible....why the hell is it only first being done in the 8th film of the franchise? Why wasn't it done at the start of that film, much less all the other space battles?, etc. You could say the same thing about force ghosts now being able to call down lightening as well as beating on people who are still alive. Some may argue that these things weren't established, but we have previous movies where in atmosphere jumps would've saved the characters a ton of time, misery, and life. It doesn't make sense to say it was too dangerous, when we see cassian do it as if it was "blah whatever, we're jumping now".

In short. EU novels used "rules" that were established by what was consistently displayed in the (at the time) three star wars films. That said, in canon novels even since the disney purchase, have been crystal clear on the fact that entering or exiting hyper space in range of the gravitational pull of a planet, is impossible, not dangerous or hard, but straight up impossible.

 

What makes the Falcon so "special" is just that Han likes her. The ship's a peice of junk, and while she's fast, basicly everyone who is'nt Han and Lando seem to think she's nothing special in the grand sceme of things.

This is'nt the Ghost, with super-special stealth tech, or the Scimitar with her cloaking device, the Falcon has...a really fast engine.

She's not the USS Defiant, she's the USS Enterprise at the start of Star Trek III.

That's not what Han says. All he says is his ship is fast and he's outrun Imperial cruisers. He also says nothing about Star Destroyers, he refers to "big Corellian ships" - and besides we see Star Destroyers keep pace with him in pretty easily shortly afterwards (and also in ESB)

Becuse you'd probobly die.

Agian, this is dipicted as so uncommon that Old Han has neither tried it nor knows if its even possible. It not something peaple do, and everybodies reactions when peaple do go and do it make it clear its supposed to be crazy dangerous.

The do, actually, at least to an extent, since otherwise gravity well generators would'nt even work and Han would'nt need to be concerned with stars and supernovas.

Sidious did'nt want her to leave - he was suprised when she did, and tried to stop her. He thought he had wrapped around his finger and undestimated her resolve.

Becuse she smashed right through some, and others were cuaght in the explosion.

She was accelerating to hyperspace, and hit the ships in front of her.

So then they probobly all die.

Established in the EU. Everything else from the movies is just supposition on your part.

And agian, Lucas was heavily involved in TCW and did'nt say anything about said episode, so clearly his intention for hyperspace's rules is different from your interpretation.

Becuse sucide attacks are stupid and a waste of men and materiel. How often is ramming employed in the real world? Rarely, even the breif flirtation with torpedo rams in the 1800s was'nt built around the idea of ramming ships, but rather ramming through harbor defenses to attack ships with torpedos.

Force ghosts were already shown to be able interact with the pysical world in RTOJ - Obi-Wan sits on a log and Yoda sits on a realing at the end.

As for being able to use the Force, why would'nt they? Their literally beings who have become one with the Force, so of course they can use it.

Umm...K2 stright-up says their odds of surviving are low, which meshes up with how in-atmo jumps are presented otherwise.

Cassian also only risked it becuse he was cuaght in the expanding debris field of an exploding planet and would have definatly died if he had'nt jumped, so it was a case of "die here, or at least possibly survive by fleeing."

And yet it happens all the time. We she ships jump in and out of hyperspace in planatery orbit all time - the Imperial fleet at Hoth in ESB, the Rebels and Empire at Scarif, the Rebels at Endor.

Their's also the finale of Rebels, which I had forgotten until now, which has the Purgills pull the Chimera into hyperspace while in Lothal's atomosphere.