ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

That's true, I overlooked that part of what you said. My bad.

Listen, I perfer "liberated," and at any rate I spent all that money years ag...wait, I've said to much, D.B who?

Anyway. Your right. It really just seems to be a matter of how we interpeted the charecters/what we wanted for them and expected from the story - for what its worth, I don't think any Star Wars film, even ANH, can boast to have pleased everyone, so there is that.

 

I was under the impression that Rey was on the verge of Dark Side anger at the end of her duel with Kylo in The Force Awakens. I looked forward to her facing that challenge in a parallel to Luke's classic journey. That's one of the things I really liked about Rise of Skywalker--she almost went over in that a couple of times and I was a little afraid of what she might do. That drew me in because I think it's the most interesting tension in Star Wars.

 

I think Rey or any of the characters were capable of such an atrocity. There is monster within each of us. My problem with Kylo Ren has not been his crimes. My problem is that Lucasfilm seemed so determined to push him to the forefront, to the detriment of the other characters, the bad writing that surrounded his arc, and Lucasfilm's attempt to blame others for his embrace of evil

By the way, the Tuskens have been at war with the moisture farmers, whom they regarded as invaders, for years. Shmi's kidnapping served as a part of that war and the entire community contributed to her torture.

 

Im very aware that Star Wars is an ensemble of characters - where each trilogy has its main characters. Im also aware that the OT and the ST contain "pass the baton" characters (who were main characters in the previous trilogy) to create connective tissue between the trilogies and an ongoing storyline. Im also aware that its not just an ensemble of characters that makes Star Wars brilliant. Its also an ensemble of character interactions and relationships and an ensemble of side stories running parallel to the main story that interconnect with the main Rebels vs Empire, etc storyline. Its this layering and complexity that makes Star Wars really special.

So Im very much aware that Finn and Poe and others form part of the ensemble of this sequel trilogy. But in each trilogy, there is key character who the overall story concerns more than others.

In the OT, it was Luke. In the PT, it was Anakin; but also here, because of how the story was written, Anakin/Vader became just as important as Luke because their journeys came together by the end of the OT.

In the ST, it is Rey; the new Jedi who is expected to be trained. And her journey will ultimately feed into Luke's - being the only Jedi Master left in the Galaxy. And hers also links in with Leia's (who is desperately seeking her brother) and Han's because he is Leia's husband.

But Ben is also a key main character too because of his relationship to the O3 and how he will eventually link in with Rey.

Ben is the reason why Luke is no longer around and why his sister is trying to find his estranged brother. Ben is the reason why Han and Leia are no longer together. Ben is the reason why Luke refuses to train Rey because he senses the same raw power. Ben is the reason why Leia prevents him from killing Rey and sacrifices her life so that he can be redeemed. Ben is the reason Rey is brought back to life after she rids the galaxy of Palpatine once and for all.
Ben is one of the reason's why there is so much carnage in the galaxy during the course of the ST. Ben is the reason why Luke returns in a "mirage" form so that the Resistance has time to escape and live to fight another day. Ben is what Rey needed in helping get rid of Snoke.

Notice the common theme here? Notice the name that keeps getting repeated?

Yes Poe and Finn's characters are main characters too. But there's are more central to the Resistance vs First Order main plotline and are only occasionally needed by Rey in helping her storyline to progress. They are simply not the key characters here. Heck, despite being the "pass the baton" characters of this trilogy, I would argue that Luke, Leia and Han are more important to the emotional narratives than what Finn and Poe are. This is because of their relationship to Ben and their importance to Rey's journey.

So in addition to Rey, Ben is also the key character to this trilogy and the first 2 movies built up this dynamic that exists in his family and caused the destruction of his family. And this needed to be told in every detail and resolved.

Because the first movie is about trying to find Luke Skywalker and the second is about Luke refusing to return - again all involving what went on between Ben and his family.

The 3rd is about Palpatine returning and Rey discovering that he is her grandfather. No wonder it doesnt fit in with the previous 2 movies and no wonder that Ben's redemption feels rushed and containing no detail. It was a sharp left turn into a side street in a massive detour from the main emotional narrative.

If I way up the character arcs on the perspective of the main emotional narratives, Rey's and Ben's far outweigh everyone else's and its the reason why they are the 2 key main characters of this trilogy. And they both deserved the character arcs to be fully explored and resolved because of that importance.

 

Okay, so would you argue that Luke or Anakin would need to overtake the film at the expense of the other main leads?

Okay. So he's past actions played an importent role in the current plot - Vader's past actions played an importent role in the plot of the OT, but nobody is arguing that Obi-Wan needs to drag the plot down by standing around aplogizing to him for things that are in Vader's head.

The Resistance vs FO plotline is the central, defining plotline of the films, and Rey's arc is very much a part of it.

So in addition to Rey, Ben is also the key character to this trilogy and the first 2 movies built up this dynamic that exists in his family and caused the destruction of his family. And this needed to be told in every detail and resolved.

Because the first movie is about trying to find Luke Skywalker and the second is about Luke refusing to return - again all involving what went on between Ben and his family.

Yeah, it was a sharp left turn and a massive detour from the main emotional narrative. And making that scene with fake Han longer and more about Ben would'nt have fixed that any - hell, IMO it would have actually made it worse, becuse why would Han justfaying Ben's worldview by aplogizing for things he either did'nt do or Ben just imagined he did actually help.

If they wanted a redemption, they should have planned it from the beginning and spread it out across all three movies.

So your solution to this would be to make Ben's narrative outwaigh everyone elses even more?

If you think Finn and Poe's narratives are outweighed by Kylo and Reys, don't you think the solution you should be arguing for would be to flesh out their stories more, not Bens?

 

So much drivel in that article

 

That's an interesting take. Luke was supposed to hate Vader, and the Emperor, as part of his Dark Side seduction. There is a parallel to Return of the Jedi where Luke is told he can only save his friends by joining the Dark Side. (This was originally going to be more tense because the Emperor ordered the moon destroyed should the shield generator actually fall, and did so solely for this reason. But they cut it, as being too similar to the original film's ending. Hear that JJ? I kid, I kid) Hence a really close parallel would be that she'd be tempted to kill him, as mentioned earlier in our conversation, and to do so in a rage.

In my view this different angle works because hatred isn't the only path to the dark side. Anger and ambition seem to do the trick, as does fear. In the case of The Last Jedi, we see Kylo telling Rey that he didn't hate Han Solo, which is not what she (or some in the audience) might expect. So it seems like hatred wasn't the intended angle, but a fear of loneliness or being helpless. I think it's a fair take that attraction was meant to be a part of the pull between her and Kylo, but Snoke's plan was for her to try and turn him partly out of compassion. He says as much, and that he used Kylo's actual weaknesses in the dark side (that is, what remains of goodness within him) as bait. Where Snoke went wrong is another conversation entirely, but I think part of it has to do with him being like Luke in a way. He underestimated his student. I know others will have a different reading. It is my reading that Kylo's own isolation and other factors made him vulnerable to her influence, although we all see him resist that once Snoke is out of the way.

I think another approach Snoke (and Kylo) were using was desire. Besides a desire to have someone to connect with about the Force (and being critical of the older generation is a part of this) she seems to have developed an attraction to him somewhere along the way. So in this reading she suppresses that desire, and any ambition she might have to co-rule the galaxy with Kylo, in favor of the resistance and her friends. I'd like to examine this in more depth at some point, and maybe when I'm better rested I can do that here. Or elsewhere.

 

Thinking back, that conversation was quite gutsy on Rey's part. She not only played him during the interrogation scene, she got one of the most powerful dark side Force-users to admit, even if indirectly, that he loved his father. It wasn't a pre-meditated answer from Kylo but an instinctive response. No wonder there is no motivation on Kylo's part to lie to her. I can't see him not regret to keep admitting to his weaknesses with her.

 

There's a beast in every man and it stirs when you put a lightsaber in his hand - Jedi Master Fren-ed Z'oned.

Your not wrong, but those monsters (generally and hopefully) require some hard push to make them appear, as was the case with Anakin, not to mention the fact that Rey is much more compasionate and reasonable then Ani was, hot-headedness and short temper aside.

As for the Tuskens being at war with the Moisture farmers, that's true but Rey is'nt from Tatooine so that would mean much to her. As for the entire community turturing Shimi, were is that stated? I'm sure the children weren't at any rate.

No offense to your freind, but after reading through that article the entire answer could just be condensed to "becuse he's fairly handsome."

 

They're not judging on his performance? Isn't that what the appeal is for an actor? Am I missing something? Sort of jumping in here as it sounds not star wars related.

 

Oh, I see. My bad. When you said "posted" by a friend I assumed you meant she was the author - as in she was the original poster.

Its worth noting that there have been plenty of fictonial charecters who are either even uglier inside then Kylo Ren and/or lack even the shallow amount of sympathic-ness he was given and have had peaple fawning over them and shipping them with peaple. It does'nt make sense, but it is a thing.

In that light that peaple thought he was attractive, found him to be some sort of misunderstood "wounded soul" and wanted him to get with Rey is something I was never actually suprised by, even if I don't understand it. Honestly, I'm sure if I had thought about it in advance part of me would have expected it before TFA had even came out.

 

We are to believe that Rey saw things in Kylo that he couldn't see in himself, or couldn't look at comfortably because he was trying to reject his true identity. This fits with the opening scene in The Force Awakens to me. But I have said before that I understand some viewers or fans not buying it, or having reservations over this or other issues such that they reject the sequel trilogy or end their canon partway through it. For my provisional canonicity approach, it is enough that Rey says she saw light in him, just as Luke said he saw good in Vader, a thing nobody in the audience had seen. Nothing forshadowed Vader's redemption either, unless you count him trying to recruit Luke (possibly sincere, though twisted) and the family connection. Essentially all of that work was done in Return of the Jedi.

Fair to say, the prequels gave us all more information to interpret Anakin's character, and some bought it and others didn't. I respect fans who only accept the classic trilogy. I know one who accepts CT plut Rogue One. I don't see it the same way, but I don't expect fans to agree anymore. We are eleven movies in, or nine at least if you only count the saga. Besides that there's been a flood of cartoons television, novels and comics. While one might hope for more solidarity on the episodes, i.e. the Saga films, I've always thought that multiplying the movies would multiply disagreements--and disappointments. I hope they hold off on new anthology films for a while, and just allow people to digest what we've got.

 

Like I said, I don't understand it either. It's just that I'm not suprised by it; its nothing new in fandom.

The changed that system when they threw out the EU in 2014 - all canon media is now of equal validity (with a few obvious exceptions).

That does'nt mean you have to like or accept it, though, it just means that the events of the comics are as offical as those in the movies

The movies are pretty clear with their objective reality - and that's that Kylo is wrong and his actions are unjustified. It's not the films, but rather a segment of the fandom, who seem to have taken things beyond that.

 

I would argue the PT is designed greyer than the OT, and provokes the viewer to question things more.

But I do agree, by the end of the trilogy it has become more than clear that the Sith and The Empire are the objective bad-guys.

 

Not surprising. My lesdar doesn't pick up a lot of straightness in Driver. Only about 50 or 72%. I can see why some women would be into him for that. He is not a stereotypical man, and I can say that's part of the appeal for some women. I mean, this is pretty much old news sociologically. Lots of women find men appealing for similar reasons. Driver is a great actor any way you slice it.

Anyhow, I pretty much agree with this video.

I personally perceive Vader's sacrifice as selfless, whereas I don't see Ren's as selfless. But that's subjective according to folks on this thread, and I don't want to trample over those with whom I disagree on this issue.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Adam Driver do the whole military thing, weapons training etc? Isn't that the american male stereotype?

 

Look, if someone told me Daisy Ridley was in danger and if I saved her at the cost of my own life she'd kiss me, I'd god save her, selfish motivations aside.

Some things are just worth dying for

Depends on where in America you live. Where I live the male stereotype is "vaughly redneck farmer."

But I think, if I read her comment correctly, what Satele meant was (and apologizes Satele if I'm not getting this right) is that he's not traditionally attractive (he is objectivly handsome, but falls well outside the sterotype of it). And she's right in that such a thing appeals to peaple - for instance, speaking as a man, I think Felicity Jones is gorgeous, even though she's does'nt meet the steryotype of what consitutes a "beautiful woman."