CT Why take this ship into battle?

A communications disruption could mean only one thing: In early 1982 the script called for attacking the "empire's main communications ship". The capital ships are to create a perimeter to prevent the escape of the Emperor.

Now that you mention that concern about the death star sending out an all hands SOS, presumably to the fleet spread across the galaxy -in all regions of the galaxy- it reinforces the conclusion, based on the majority of data, that hyperspace required strategically significant time, and was not Abrams Warz instantaneous. Or to put this in different terms, the Rebel ships drop out of hyperspace and the death star security guard picks up the phone, and the clock now starts ticking on how quickly the nearest Imperial ship can get from its location -in any region of the galaxy- to the death star. Closer than Sullust, not a long wait. Farther than Sullust, longer wait. It stands to reason that the Emperor would not have been secretly building the next ultimate weapon close to Luke's idiomatic 'bright center of the universe'.*

I've seen arguments that the rebel commandos on the Falcon mean that Lucas at some indeterminate period considered implying that they were intended to be a small strike team to be inserted inside the Death Star, for reasons that can be guessed.

*uses of universe in SW77 suggest (to me) that GFFA was not fully impressed with other comparable disk galaxies in anything resembling a galactic neighborhood:

I would also appreciate the comedy of someone speculating that Lucas didn't know a galaxy from a universe. Consider how trippingly the following candidates roll off the tongue, or set the 1 emphatic despondent urgency, 2 degree of the Empire's hubris, 3 or global scope of the Akallabeth.

 

Indeed now I think about it, I assume that is the significance behind the line describing the Imperial fleet as “spread out in a vain effort to engage us”. Theoretically they don’t have any significant forces in the vicinity that can respond in a timely fashion.

 

The basic logic that the death star was not being constructed in an obvious place should mean it was far from the galactic core, a Nevada / Area 51 analog, out of the way. The Emperor's plan to entice the Rebel Fleet into a Battle of Jutland would have hinged on the Rebel commanders believing that they stood a chance of defeating in detail because one half of the Imperial fleet, thinly spread in the opposite half of the galaxy from wherever Endor was, would not be able to get to the hot spot in tactical time, even if maybe a quarter of the thinly spread galactic fleet, on the same side of the galaxy, might have a chance. I'm using 'half' loosely when what I mean is an integrated radius from Endor. Obviously, some Imperial ships on the other side of the galaxy, that are still within radius R, should be able to get to Endor before some Imperial ships that are on this side of the galaxy, but are outside of radius R. (Let R be the distance from Endor to the galactic center.) The Emperor could have made Ackbar feel like Napoleon, that he had all the intelligence, that he could make an overwhelming single strike by outsmarting a numerical superior foe through clever use of maneuver.

 

There is also the question of how desperate was the Imperial attempt to engage across the galaxy? Is this a token gesture to lull the Rebellion into believing any defense of the Death Star is weak? I believe this is the case. Give the Rebellion a false sense of security, so to speak, in attacking the Death Star.

 

The Imperials could have stepped up the movements, broadcasts, garbage dumps, any form of evidence of their presence, by some factor to make Rebel intelligence believe that "the" Imperial fleet had basically been 99% accounted for, by mass. That, there was no serious chunk of Imperial fleet kept in reserve anywhere in particular. There should logically be some defense of a death star under construction. There should logically be a body guard / honor guard / royal guard loyal exclusively to The Emperor - maybe a well protected flagship with dedicated task force*. But the Rebellion's Bletchley Park was getting the idea, to some 95% confidence, that it should not be something their ships of the line could not handle.

*

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/fdr-torpedo-us-navy-destroyer.html

 

And just to reiterate, we can see this play out in the movie where Han and company don’t bat an eye on encountering a SSD on patrol, followed by that same ship succumbing in the actual battle under the concentrated firepower of the Alliance fleet. (One could argue that this was only because of a lucky shot but I don’t think that’s relevant given that they still managed to lower the bridge deflector shields under far worse circumstances than they anticipated going in)

 

I believe one of the earlier scripts for Return of the Jedi had the Rebels sending a special forces unit onboard at least one of the two Death Stars being constructed. In that draft Luke, Vader and the Emperor are in the Imperial Capital and not on a Death Star. This would put some of the action on an actual Death Star for that version of the script. Also an early draft had Princess Leia and the rebels building a canon undetected on one of the Imperial Capital's moons. So when it comes to the Empire not detecting things (unless this was part of the Emperor's ruse) it doesn't get more under their nose then that.

I do wonder what was going on with the outtakes of troops carrying weapons on Falcon.

Maybe this is just my own conclusions... After the Senate was dissolved and the Death Star revealed to the galaxy, star systems across the Empire went into open revolt. Worlds loyal to the Empire since its foundation now needed Star Destroyers permanently in orbit to maintain the rule of law. Suddenly the Empire was short on ships and troops, and couldn't put new ones in to service fast enough.

With Imperial resources spread so thin in dealing with the rising rebellion, it shouldn't have been possible to allocate the needed materials and work force to build another Death Star. That's the best cover the second Death Star could have. That's also why more ships were not at Endor. They were needed across the Empire and could not be pulled away.

 

While I would probably stop short of mass open rebellion, I do get a sense of desperation from the Imperial Navy. They can feel the tide turning against them (a danger to your Star-fleet and all) and they realize they need to finish the war relatively quickly before the scales are tipped past the breaking point. I imagine as public support(as in support by the general public) of the Rebellion grows, more and more systems follow the Alderaan model of appearing to be loyal to the Empire but with the local government supporting the rebels under the table. In some cases it could be as simple as the local Moff turning a blind eye to a shipment or two going missing because he believes it is in his best interest politically to do so.

 

By open rebellion I mean rebellion happening on worlds where it didn't happen at all before, formally loyal worlds. Those worlds with the least, or no Imperial military presence would have the easiest time rebelling in the moment. Some of that would be out of how naive they still are after following the empire. They just don't understand how bad the Empire really is. Over night they have a revolt and the next morning Star Destroyers and Stormtrooper arrive en masse to put them down.

That rebellion is stopped but the planet must remain occupied. It's never going back to naively following. Even worlds that don't openly revolt would need more policing. That's how the military resources of the Empire get stretched so thin all at once. And that creates a space for the Rebellion to gain support and become more daring. But ever the schemer, Palpatine turns even this to his advantage. He'll let the military be short on resources, and let the rebels think they are winning momentum, all to provide cover for the Death Star construction and his other larger long term plans.

As for local Moffs, I think they are under great pressure to put down rebellion. If they're suspected of turning a blind eye, they will be retired early. The Moff's are expected to police more and enforce more with less resources. And characters like Darth Vader lurking around keep the fear of the Emperor alive in the higher ranking Imperials. And they pass the fear of failure down the chain of command. That's the sense of desperation in the Imperial Navy. The tide is turning against the Empire and their lives are on the line to stop the tide.

 

I totally agree that such a scenario would have played out, and I guess when I say “not open rebellion” I’m referring to both those planets where the revolt was crushed as you described and now summers below the surface, and those that see this happen and opt to keep their rebellious activities a secret as much as possible.

As for the Moff in my example, perhaps I could have used a better term because I’m not really familiar with the official Imperial rank hierarchy, but what I mean is if you’re in charge of a relatively low level world and you don’t really care about the greater Empire or the Rebellion ideologically, at the start of ANH if during inventory you discover that a few crates of meilooruns have gone missing, you can probably expect a poor performance review if you don’t do everything in your power to demonstrate that it will not happen again. However as things play out, if you know there’s now strong public support for the rebellion on your planet, the risk to yourself if you put your foot down is probably greater than the risk from someone in accounting taking you to task over a discrepancy in reported and actual fruits. They’re going to be too busy worrying about that supply convoy that got hit yesterday, etc. All of this is purely hypothetical of course, I was just making the point that as the Rebellion shows signs of winning they not only embolden those who agree with the cause, they also can convince neutrals that appearing sympathetic is in their own interests, which can create a snowball effect.

 

That makes so much sense. I agree. I think at the start of AHN there are Moffs and other officials that look the other way when it comes to food supplies and sometimes even larger items more directly useful in rebellion. And there were low level systems. Once the senate is eliminated and the Death Star gone, all systems are on some level of alert. Officials that looked the other way would quickly be eliminated and replaced with new leadership able to carry out the Empire's complete totalitarian rule. New leaders less beuracratic and more military in nature.

The Emperor can again use this situation to his advantage. By keeping the Imperial side stronger by just enough that the Rebels could actually win, it creates room to embolden those who agree with the rebel cause. It convinces neutrals to join the rebellion. But it's all a ruse by Emperor. At the right moment the Emperor can show the great power and forces developed in secret to wipe out rebellion. The pressure of that situation also pushes events to decisive end.

These are dangerous tactics, but a Sith Lord feels he can pull it off.

Now whats this has to do with Rebel Transports at the Battle of Endor?? This just shows what a dangerous and high profile target the Emperor is. I like the idea those ships are brought along to either help catch Palpatine if he tries to escape or prevent the Imperials from calling for help.

 

Haha I am painfully aware that I’ve been contributing to this thread straying a bit off topic, which is a shame because I do think it’s an interesting topic in the first place, but I think it’s fair to try to flesh out the underlying assumptions behind the Battle of Endor in order to understand how the Rebellion thought this ship could potentially contribute to a victory.

 

Hahah. Agreed! I felt like I was the one taking thing off topic.

It seems all of Palpatine's plans have some element of trickery. What they are trying to achieve at face value is a setup to have Palpatine's enemies set themselves up for his true objectives.

 

The rebels didn't know it but the Emperor did bring a substantial fleet to Endor when they were counting on only a few.

Defintiely a rule in the OT, that the dark lords of the Sith are always planning a scheme to trap the rebels. Vader and Sidious both attempt this and it usually blows up in their face.

 

I like how the Rebels plan in Rogue One at Scarif seems like a sequence of events that genuinely happened spontaneously. The Emperor sees that defeat and puts together the same situation with the second Death Star to lure out and Destroy the Rebellion. Perhaps Luke Skywalker too, depending on what we can believe.

 

Any idea what was happening in Ackar's tactics or strategy when he said, “We've got to give those fighters more time. Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer.” ? My micronarrative is that the super star destroyer was guiding or coordinating the TIEs that were chasing the Rebel fighters through the superstructure. Whereas, Lando was flying by the seat of his pants, because he enunciates uncertainly, “Now lock onto the strongest power source. It should be the power generator.”

 

I’ve been puzzled by that one myself but that could be a reasonable explanation. It is referred to as a “Command Ship” multiple times in the movie, and if nothing else the loss of Piett would be sure to cause some disarray. I’m still not sure this would affect the fighters already in the superstructure but it could definitely disrupt the ability to coordinate additional waves. It could even be as simple as Ackbar sending a message that the Rebel fleet is still a force to be reckoned with to make the Empire think twice about how many TIEs they can divert to defending the Death Star. This could come into play if as you alluded to the Rebel fighters are unable to navigate their way to the main reactor on the first attempt.

 

When in doubt, look to toys for answers.

THINK BIG. PLAY SMALL. MICRO MACHINES


Or *maybe* it's like the "Kenner carrying case", full of Rebels wearing space suits that deploy to take over enemy ships similar to what Saesee Tiin during the battle of Coruscant in Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars Micro Series.

 

Attacking the Super Star Destroyer could also distract TIEs from the fighters. Had Lando not succeed it could allow for attempts to blow up the Death Star. It was the Rebel's third try when Luke destroyed the first one.

 

<record scratch>
Huh?
Defending / rescuing / aiding the Emperor was the first priority of all. Vader said "asteroids do not concern me" in clear disregard for the lives of his subordinates. How much less would the Emperor care for his subordinates as individuals, or in the aggregate. The whole structure was designed around deferring to the Emperor. Nobody thinks twice about upsetting a droid*, and nobody thinks twice about defending the Emperor. If this is broken by modern hand wringing, it destroys the cautionary nutrition of the tale. YES, it's always nice to speculate about diamond in the rough Imperials who got swept up in a wave of nationalism but find redemption at some point. But the central conceit, one that even mechanically is required to make SW77 work, is that soldiers loyal to the Emperor are loyal to the emperor above all other colleagues. So the question should go the other way, and the Imperials would be tasked to not protect the super star destroyer too much if that risked pulling protection away from The Emperor, who was on the death star. I'm not sad. Debate me.

*Why does Han Solo get away with this assumption, in light of the Clone Wars and the Separatist armies that used droids who could kill, let alone rip arms out of sockets? Was Han in a complete knowledge vacuum, or was he resting on a cultural chauvinism that arose only inside 20? years? 15? years? Where did this anti-droid assured, knowing, swagger come from, in universe, even if the in-universe was constructed in 1973-6? Did Lucas intend to steer away from a Westworld (1973) in his 1973-6 burn, but then did an about face in 1998 when he needed some kid-friendly faceless autonomous soulless enemy forces to mow down? Did 3PO know that during some period not very far back, droids were not getting upset and doing worse than pull people's arms out, in one part of the galaxy after another. (I have to safeguard against allowing images from The Mandalorian to taint archeologically demonstrated canon.)

Hoth was my Valinor.

 

I figured you might object on those grounds, but I felt I was at risk of going on a tangent to my tangent if I tried to explain further. Basically the two main points in that regard are 1) I don’t find it a satisfactory answer myself, and 2) while protecting the Death Star is the highest priority, protecting the fleet is still a secondary objective(if nothing else because they’re needed to continue preventing the Rebels escape) and it’s consistent for the Imperials to believe they can do both. In fact destroying the Death Star is the Rebels’ highest priority but we see that they do not commit 100% of their fighters to the task. Perhaps without their command ship to coordinate them there are TIEs that get confused about their assignments, as opposed to Lando giving the order for “Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me”.

 

If TIEs are enganging the other Rebel fighters, then going for the Super Star Destroyer keeps this TIEs away from the Death Star. Also that Super Star Destroyer going down creates one huge distraction / disruption.

 

Seeing as how we've ventured into tactics, having the capital ships engaging the Star Destroyers was the worst thing they could do. Ignoring the possibility of flying to the other side of the Death Star, the capital ships should have gotten as close as they could to the Death Star. Ideally near the structure's equator. This way they stay below the firing range of the Death Star's super weapon. Engaging the Star Destroyers actually just makes it easier to be targeted.

 

The Rebel Fleet couldn't get to the Death Star while the shield is still up. At first their plan is to hold where they are and let the Imperials come them while they wait for the Shield to go down. While Rebel fighters engage the TIE Fighters, the Death Star fires with the shield still up. At this point the Rebels decide to engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range so the Death Star can't fire on them without risking damage to the Imperial Fleet.

Once the shield drops the capital ships are already engaged with the Star Destroyer and don't want to risk flying through the range of the Death Star's super weapon.

 

They didn't have to get that close. Just get close enough to get under the range of the super weapon. Look at the angle of the weapon disc compared to where the equator is on the Death Star. There becomes a point that the weapon cannot get an angle to shoot at the rebel ships.