ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

or he like all good creative people improved on it. He made a connection between them. JJ liked and used it in his latest movie. even in TFA it seemed like they did have some connection. When he was trying to find out what she knew. and it's better this way then the old formula of good guy vs bad guy.

 

Snoke was less of a Palpatine copycat in TLJ, despite the TLJ throne room scene literally copying swaths of dialogue from Palpatine in ROTJ? Okay then.

 

Snoke, in my opinion is one of the best examples of one of my biggest issues with Last Jedi: it doubles down on the problems in Force Awakens' setup. It's another Empire vs Rebellion-style conflict. But they're both smaller groups, with the First Order coming off as a tighter band of fanatics compared to the Empire, and we don't see them as having as many resources as the Empire. They also wipe the government off the map, opening up a lot of possibilities. But then the next film, they're incompetent and have seemingly limitless resources, pulling out two new super duper ships before the end of act 1. Snoke is too Palpatine-y. But he does seem to have a more cult-like following with Kylo and Hux and a different demeanor. Instead of emphasizing and expanding on these differences, TLJ doubles down and just makes him Palpatine. And then TROS literally makes him Palpatine. TFA left a lot of directions to explore, but TLJ took them in the most mundane ways.

And, bringing this back to Kylo, he's one of the few areas I don't think this happens. TLJ is laser-focused on it's interest in Kylo at the expense of other characters, but it does try to do stuff with him. I don't think it's very successful, but there feels like there's more thought put into him than the rest of it.

 

Improving on what was set up would be expanding on what was set up. Not flushing it. Even your arguments have been all about how TFA stunk and RJ fixed it. Improving upon TFA might be, for example, exploring why Kylo is so bonded to Snoke, choosing Snoke over his own family. That might have been interesting. Also, perhaps exploring why Rey was so convinced that she was separated from her family by mistake. That was certainly set up. Also, TFA implied she went to Luke perhaps for personal belonging, not just to join the Resistance. TFA never explored why Rey wanted to be a Jedi or join the Resistance. That would have expanded on her set up to explore those questions for our protagonist. Or how about instead of making Finn's big sacrificial injury from TFA a joke, maybe give Finn some emotional development related to it? Show growth? That was certainly foreshadowed. Or what about, develop some reaction to Han's brutal murder? Leia and Kylo interacting or communicating, diving into that grief? Maybe some details that people actually care about related to Kylo being a school shooter. That was hella set up. RJ liked sweeping set up under the rug though.

 

Personal belonging is still there, she just feels it's more with Kylo then Luke. And we didn't really need Snoke's backstory explored either, as we know now he was just a pawn in a larger game. And Kylo's backstory all was needed was shown when Ben thinks he saw Luke trying to strike him down. The Leia-Ben would have been in 9. And ironic, Finn had a better arc in TLJ then in TFA and TROS, all he does is scream REEY.

 

Right, she feels it more with a mass murderer than Luke. That's some great writing and character development right there.

We didn't know that then. It's also still absolutely nuts that this clone thing took over a whole empire sized group and somehow cowed all those folks into being his army, etc. Then died like a complete chump.

No, it isn't. Why does Luke want to strike him down again? Because he already sensed evil in him. Why? Please limit your answers to what we see onscreen.

So him wandering around in a leaking suit, then being tased and lectured by Rose, and probably ending up with the worst case of whiplash ever after their ships collide (forget how ridiculous that they both walked away from that) is a good character arc?

 

Good thing then that he neither mocked nor trashed anything...

Funny how you start of a post like that while generally doing little beyond trashing Rian Johnson every chance you get. Now you even suggest that he thinks JJ Abrams had no vision, with absolutely nothing to back it up at all.

What you thought JJ Abrams' vision was is entirely irrelvant. You are not JJ Abrams, you do not speak for him. All you do here is project your feelings onto him.

Beyond that, JJ Abrams was brought in to deliver the start of the trilogy. He was specifically not hired to tell the writers of VIII and IX where they should go. He did deliver his start, and left basically everything open on purpose, so it could be moved in any direction that would be desired. That was his job. Pretending that there was some set course and Rian Johnson deviated from it is complete nonsense. If there had been one, and Johnson didn't adhere to it, he never would have finished the movie. Just look at what happened with every other project that deviated from course.

Constantly repeating the same lie doesn't somehow make it true.

 

Agree to disagree.

Yes. I criticize RJ's work in TLJ because I think it's awful. I'm not criticizing anyone for disliking JJ or TFA? I feel like you think you're dunking on me for being a hypocrite, but you're not. My point is that it wasn't RJ's job to crap on the first movie in his sequel. So crapping on TFA to defend RJ going a different course is automatically an illegitimate argument to me. TFA didn't need to be course corrected. It needed a sequel that expanded on what it set up.

As far as arguing that JJ had no vision, were you following the discussion? The poster I'm engaging with said that. I only hypothesized that if that was RJ's perspective, he wasn't doing his job as he was hired to do it. A sequel writer shouldn't set out to replace supposedly non-existent vision of the first movie with his own vision in the sequel.

I referenced in other posts plot threads JJ introduced in his film that RJ ignored and swept under the rug. I'm not speaking for JJ. I'm discussing his film and its sequel, which we've all seen and are certainly capable of discussing.

Rey/Kylo is another example of RJ flushing JJ's set up. JJ wrote Kylo to abduct and mind rape Rey. He didn't foreshadow a stupid insulting quasi-romance between those two.

I didn't say anything about Snoke's backstory. I said the Kylo/Snoke relationship needed to be explored. The three context-free flashbacks of the Luke event gave zero insight into Kylo and Snoke's relationship nor did it elucidate why the hell Kylo would murder his father for Snoke. Leia and Ben didn't need to be saved for IX. It needed to be in TLJ. There needed to be emotional fallout to the patricide. That's the point of having such an emotional murder in the first film in the first place.

And no, Finn wasn't better served by RJ treating his sacrifice like a joke... at his expense. RJ wrote Finn like he's a bully kicking down.

Oh - here's another foreshadowing RJ ignored. JJ set up a time skip with Kylo going back to Snoke for training (stated explicitly in the dialogue) while Rey trained with Luke.

 

Yup, as much as I dislike about TFA, I still think it was a solid enough, crowd-pleasing opener that had a few interesting hooks and unique developments to separate it from the OT. What it needed was a sequel written by a storyteller, someone with both vision and a respect for what came before.

RJ, and his self-admitted distaste for worldbuilding, only blew up the problems of TFA, ignored it's unique elements, and bent the setting and characters to force his vision onto the screen. He went out of his way to do the opposite of what people speculated at every single turn, and went out of his way to make every answer disappointing. He subverted numerous genre tropes, even copied old SW scenes verbatim just so he could do the opposite and sneak yet another ridiculous twist in there.

Like, look at all his commentary and BTS materials. I've never in my life seen a filmmaker who made it his goal to make absolutely everything in his movie some kind of twist on some level.

 

I’m not kidding when I say these covers might be the best thing we got out of TROS! They still are perfection. I remember the day they came out, my hype for the film went up 10x!

 

First of, godisawsome, I meant to put a next to my response to your earlier answer about Rey Skywalker rather then a , just clarafying this becuse the latter may might make it look like I was being sarcastic in my response rather then agreeing with you.

Someone (probobly Driver, defiantly Ridley) probobly said this is a bad choice, but what I'm saying is I doubt Abrams (or LFL, whoever made the choice) put any thought into why the charecters were kissing in-universe, becuse if he had it would'nt have happened.

The point is still valid, becuse there is no PT equivliant in existence relative to the ST - if Kylo's story in TROS is incomplete as-relesed, then so was Vader's in ROTJ as-relesed. You can't dismiss the latter while justifying the Force thanks to works that did'nt exist when the movie came out explaining things in hindsight.

Why would they even need to be number films? The anthology approch would work fine, as would books and comics.

Vader is a main character without the context of the PT - the main villian is still a very much a main character. At any rate he's certianly more importent then Wedge, lol.

You really have fun, don't you?

With all due respect but just becuse you feel that it mocked and trashed TFA does'nt mean it actually did.*

Vader hates Palpatine despite him have chose him over his family, friends and the Republic itself - it's not really bizzare, and in fact it's long been established to be the standered master/apprentice relationship when it comes to Darksiders.

RJ hated TFA? Source?*

Is'nt that what Abrams did with TLJ when he made TROS? Though?*

Well, Snoke was killed off in TLJ to make way for (what would have been) a more interesting villian. Sure, it's a case of burning a scab closed with a blowtorch rather then putting a bandaid on it, but it fixs the root problem all the same.*

It did explain it. She was in denial.*

TFA implied nothing regarding why she went to Luke, but it did make it clear that the Resistance (not Rey) were the ones actively looking for him. Given that, it's only naturally for RJ to think they wanted to recruit him. That aside, she is looking for belonging in TLJ and the movie does establish why whe wants to be trained ("Something inside me has always been there Then now it's awake. And I'm afraid. I do not know what it is... or what to do with it. And I need help.")*

Finn's entire arc in TLJ was a natural continuation of the path he started out on in TFA.*

You mean like having Rey try to shot Kylo on sight the first time she sees him, have her specificly bring it up and show how doing the deed affected Kylo?

Kinda like Palpatine in the OT, then?*

Oh, his suit was leaking bacta! Oh the humanity! How dare they do that to him! The sheer nerve of having him be involved in a mildly comedic scene even though he's hardly the only charecter to get that treatment! Oh, Rose tased him becuse she had orders to do so to anyone trying to anyone leaving the ship and was sort of a dick to him a few times, she's so mean and cruel and is definatly never nice to Finn ever and at all!

No offense, but destilling Finn's storyline in TLJ down to "Finn naked, leaking bag!? and Rose being sorta rude a couple times" seems kinda of disingenuous.*

But see, here's the thing - it did have a sequal that expanded on what it had set up; it just did'nt expand on it in a way you liked.*

No, he did'nt foreshadow a timejump - all Snoke said was that it was time to finish Ren's training (which does not have to be Force training or combat training, mind you, completing his emotional transition to full Darksider, as Snoke was endevouring to do in TLJ, would also fall under that catagory) and Rey never says she's going to Luke to learn from him and never expresses any desire to do so; there was nothing in the way TFA ended that implies a timejump was going to be a thing.*

The only two peaple, aside from Rey, who care about saving Ben's soul are his parents. The ST is'nt about "everybody one after the other" dying for him. If Shimi or Padme were alive during the PT don't you think they'd want to have the Anakin they knew and loved come back?

Same with TLJ. Sure, it made less money and a bunch of angry peaple only threw a fit about how it was the worst thing every and "killed" Star Wars, but they did the same thing for TFA (and for ROTS, and ATOC, and TPM, and Rebels, and TCW...), but it was still a sucessful and well-recived movie.*

JJ did'nt have vision. He had empty mystery boxs and no plans for the future - lest you forget he was only ever suppossed to direct one movie originally and was fully aware of what RJ was putting in the script for the following movie, which he evidently felt did'nt conflict with his "vision" becuse he never made any attempt to have RJ change anything.*

Also to these in particuler...

Dialogue in TFA flat-out states Luke walked away from everything - he was done with the Jedi, and that was already apparent even before we meet him becuse thats what Abrams told us.*

You know the saber in TLJ was'nt trying to decide which of them they liked more and tore itself apart becuse it could'nt decide, right? They were using the Force to trying a pull it to each other and it broke becuse of the strain.*

Finn is still a protagonist in TLJ.*

We are flat-out shown Rey left behind in TFA, and never told why outside of her own opinions (which formentated when she was a little child and had not memory of her parents, so naturally would'nt be correct). Not only that, but Jakku is'nt her homeworld and TLJ never says it was and she was'nt sold in slavery but rather indentured servitude.*

By "unique" I assume you mean, "exactly the same as ANH?"

It seems strange to knock RJ for not being a storyteller with vision* comparative to Abrams, as it does'nt jive not just relative to their SW products but to their approch to filmaking overall.*

*A story you don't like is still a story, and a vision you don't agree with is still a vision.

******************If we're all going to discuss this we should probobly move the conversation over to the Development of the ST Thread.

 

...? Yeah. My opinion is that it did.

Vader didn't hate Palpatine. He didn't choose Palpatine over his family, friends or the Republic either. He chose Padme over everyone, and then rationalized that everyone would be better off with an Empire. Also, Vader didn't worship Palpatine. He followed him for his power.

So that's Vader's characterization. Now getting back to Kylo, I think TLJ should have explored his relationship with Snoke and why he chose Snoke over his family. Whether something is standard really doesn't make for an interesting story. The story that TFA set up was that Kylo worshipped Snoke for some reason, and murdered Han in cold blood to prove himself to Snoke.

I didn't say he did. Emphasized the word I used demonstrating that. See, this was a long back and forth where the person I was speaking to was making that argument, and I hypothetically responded as though RJ shared his viewpoint.

This complaint seriously confounds me. JJ tried as hard as he could to return to the feel of TFA, the first movie of this trilogy, the one that set the whole thing up. There is no less valid complaint in my mind than the one that focuses on JJ trying to undo TLJ. Did he have some kind of duty to follow RJ's lead and continue to ignore his own set up for this trilogy? I think that's a ridiculous request. JJ undid some stuff RJ did for sure, but why on earth shouldn't he? In the end, he was stuck with RJ's contribution and he treated Rey, Kylo and Finn accordingly. Ultimately, RJ's vision won, and he's the one that disrespected the set up he was handed in the first place.

That's flushing the set up. It certainly isn't expanding on it or respecting it. "Oh, the protagonist thought something and it was her primary motivation in the film? No, she's just delusional and that has no relevance to the story, move along now. That primary motivation for our protagonist is a dead end."

Rey's only spoken motivation in TFA was to wait for her family. When offered the chance to work for Han or join the Resistance, she said no. She wanted her family. Without any stated motivational reasons, Rey went off to Luke after being told by a force sage that the belonging she seeks (that she's been waiting for) isn't on Jakku. It's with Luke. That is what TFA implied. Rey was motivated by personal belonging.

Being afraid of what's inside her doesn't explain why yesterday she wanted to wait for her family on Jakku scavenging, and today she is willing to die for the Resistance's cause. Wanting to understand her force abilities =/= a desire to rid the galaxy of evil. Yesterday her desire for family trumped any do-gooding desire that she had.

In TLJ, RJ rewrote her to want important parents. This has nothing to do with her set up in TFA. She tearfully admits that her parents were "nobodies," like this is something she can't stand to admit. It's totally ridiculous. It had no set up.

I mean like having it matter in the long run. Wow, Rey brought it up once, Kylo shrugged like a psycho while explaining his selfish motive, and they never discussed it again. That dramatic murder was totally worth that nothing development. (sarcasm alert)

No clue how you think TLJ showed the deed affecting Kylo. Huh? Kylo shrugged it off. He didn't give a crap about Han in TLJ.

Here's the thing - I don't agree with you. I think the sequel trashed what was set up in the intro.

Yup he did. We all have an understanding of what force training is. We all understand that there is a passage of time in the OT and the PT, during which our protagonist advances his force abilities. JJ set up in the dialogue that Kylo would return to Snoke to finish his training. Meaning his training wasn't complete. This sounds significant because we know he's been with Snoke for some time by now, and he was with Luke before that. He's missing some ingredient. This absolutely, 100% did not foreshadow Kylo's big dark side test being whether he could murder the strange girl he just met, like that's a bigger test than murdering his loving, defenseless father begging him to come home in cold blood.

Luke absolutely cares about Kylo's soul. He whines a ton about how he failed Kylo. He isolated himself over it, blaming himself. Compared to his students that he failed to protect, Kylo is his singular motivation in life. They got one dismissive shout out that wasn't about them, it was just a factoid in his story about Kylo.

If Shmi or Padme were alive, Anakin's fall to the dark side couldn't have happened. It's their deaths that lead to it. See how that works? Anakin was traumatized by losing loved ones (or fear of losing one and then actually losing her). Kylo killed and destroyed his loved ones... while they begged and begged and begged and died for him. The equivalent would be Anakin murdering Shmi while Padme watched, and then Anakin trying to kill Padme, and then Obi dying while fighting against Anakin's forces... and then Anakin tries again to kill Padme, and then Yoda dies trying to save him as well, and then finally he dies for Padme after she begs a few more times. Boy, Anakin sounds like a real pos in that timeline. I mean, he's a pos anyway, but at least in his story, the narrative treats him like the monster he is, and everyone else isn't prioritizing his worthless soul over the rest of the innocent citizens of the galaxy.

You cannot say TLJ was a well-received movie lol. Even your description acknowledges that it wasn't. I'm sorry, all the fans that think it's trash, just, what, aren't important enough for their opinions to matter? There's a ton of evidence to the contrary. TLJ was a very controversial movie. Stating otherwise is just an attempt to erase opinions that you disagree with. TFA had some detractors of course, but it wasn't the same. They were out-shouted, I guess you could say, and probably hugely out-numbered, by the defenders. Not so with TLJ.

I'm gonna steal a line from you - with all due respect but just because you feel that it JJ didn't have a vision doesn't mean he actually didn't. I disagree with you. TFA exists, and there is a story and a vision portrayed in that movie, such as it is. He left mystery boxes to explore, and he left concrete tidbits to build on.

Dialogue in TFA flat out states Luke walked away - to find the first Jedi temple. That's the opposite of being done with the Jedi. That's what Abrams told us.

You know that the saber was a symbol, right, for our protagonist?

RJ says flat out, Kylo is the two halves of a protagonist with Rey.

I literally said that she was left behind on a strange world. I never said we were told why, other than Rey believing it was a mistake. Jakku absolutely was portrayed as her homeworld in TLJ. That's why Kylo said they were buried in a pauper's grave on Jakku - as opposed to off world where the ship was flying when she was abandoned. They also clearly weren't paupers in TFA because check it out, they had a pretty cool ship. Probably didn't need to sell a kid for booze. Oh and also, I don't care if you call it slavery or indentured servitude - Rey is neither in TFA. She's poor and put upon, but she's free. She has her own house, her own speeder, makes her own choices. The film goes out of its way to show the audience that Rey stays there on Jakku living that life by choice.

 

Wedge is a bit of an extreme example of course but really Anakin is no more of a main character than Obi-wan is. We don’t get much detail on him either but it’s ok because what we get is all we need. All we need to know about Anakin is he loves his son more than he loves the Dark Side. The problem with Kylo is it’s hard to understand why he’s killing his dad one day but sacrificing himself to save a random girl the next.

 

Cross post from Rey thread and originated in Palpatine thread but, hey, dyad!

Read a cool interpretation of Rey's Cave Vision scene in light of the Dyad in TROS.

Sure, it certainly wasn't intended that way, Johnson was going more for Rey's isolation and loneliness, but there's been moments in Star Wars where when it was made it was meant to be one thing but subsequent movies made it another. So if you roll with Rey is having a Dyad Force Vision, I think it actually fits perfectly.

 

You better believe it!

 

I think the obvious, post-completion of the ST reading is that Kylo correctly read some of Rey's memories, but embellished what he knew with suppositions of his own, such as their occupation and the manner and location of their death.

He filled it out in this way because it seemed plausible to him, and because he wanted to emphasize her humble origins to bolster his sell. The idea was that she could be a somebody in his world. In his distorted perspective, he wants her to feel he is being big to offer this to her. But his evident desperation gives the lie to what he is saying--she is big on her own and has the power to reject his offer. She is perhaps the one thing he really knows he can't control, even if he wants to think she is weak for "holding on."

In my reading, despite gaining political power he is cracking more at this point because it isn't really enough.

 

Kylo does say "I never lied to you," but he was definitely had a bit of omission of certain facts from a "certain point of view". I just view it as he doesn't entirely piece it together from her memories until he talks to Palpatine.

 

Kylo definitely did not lie to Rey. He either didn’t know the whole truth, or the honest correct answer is we just had two very different directors with very different ideas of where the story should go.

 

this is accurate.

 

I'm more interested in in-universe explanations and solutions that accept the whole ST.

For me the ST is all or nothing.

Others may differ.

 

Ways it can still be fixed:

* Ben did not have all the information, but did have a partial vision that was still vague.
* Rey is still a nobody from a certain point of view because her father was a failed clone experiment who had no powers and his midichlorian count was at pure human levels. He was disposed of or ran away. That it skipped a generation was a surprise. Her paternal genetics might not even be fully Palpatine (explicitly not an identical clone) except for the Sith acolytes attempting to splice Palpatine's midichlorians into this new vessel. Most of Rey's father's clone donor genetics could very well have been from a total nobody.
* While Rey's father may have died heroically when it was discovered that his offspring had taken after Palpatine, her mother may have indeed sold off her daughter by telling Plutt the story of needing drinking money. That flashback never actually suggested her mother died or sold Rey heroically either. She very well may have died and been buried in a junker desert, and might even have had a drinking problem after what happened to Rey's father. She could very well have been scared and distraught, rather than dying a hero.

 

Life lesson: Liars will often claim to never have lied. In fact, it's pretty much their standard MO.

 

Ben was absolutely not intended to be a liar by Rian. That was not his characterization. The whole point was painful truths said in a blunt way, because Rey had been in denial about her past for so long and kept trying to pretend she didn't know.

Psychological villains are in fact quite fond of telling harsh truths that the heroes don't want to hear and they challenge their denial. That's why they're the most effective. Having a villain tell harsh truths is actually quite common in storytelling. They poke at all those insecurities.

Rian didn't even see Ben as a villain, but more of a sympathetic anti-villain on the way to a redemptive arc who was half of his co-protagonists. It's painfully obvious that's what he was writing.

Also, "but not to me" to anyone with a logic-wired brain (rather than a hyperemotional one) is actually a major qualifier to the earlier sentence. It's not an insult. While Ben loves to self-project his own issues, this was actually intended to be his way of saying that she might not have come from any grand lineage, but she was everything and very important to him regardless. That's just an inartful compliment typical of a logic-wired introvert's brain (he's almost certainly an INTJ). Autistics (speaking from someone who has Asperger's and is an INTP) often make these kinds of compliments or innocent statements that are taken wildly wrongly out of context.

 

So we're getting off-topic with our analysis of the films so no offense AshokaSolo but I put your responses over in the devolopment thread. You can respond to them or not, it's up to you, but we were all warned several times a few pages ago to keep it on topic in here and it's probobly best none of us poked the bear.

Vader most defiantly did hate Palpatine - at least post RTOS; becuse Palpatine treats him like absolute **** and hatred is the Sith way - hate and rage give them power, and Palpatine even tells Luke that its good when he feels his hate for him and encourages him to embrace it.

And Anakin might have convinced himself he was choosing Padme, and that was certainly his motivation in the very begining, but that did'nt stop him from snapping and trottling her in a paranoid rant. He defiantly did chose Palpatine over the Republic though, becuse he helped the man overthrow it.

Yeah, no. That's not something that's ever said or implied in the movie, and the way their relationship is presented is really no different then how Palpatine and Vader's was presented in ESB.

Snoke - You have too much of your father's heart in you, young Solo.
Kylo - I killed Han Solo. When the moment came I didn't hesitate.
Snoke - And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone.

Rey - You don't have to do this. I feel the conflict in you. It's tearing you apart.

Kylo's whole arc in TLJ is about him coming to terms with what he did - granted he "comes to terms" with it in the absolute worst way (by making himself cease to care by fully supressing the remaining peices of Ben Solo within him and fully embracing the Dark Side) but TLJ very much did show how what Kylo did affected him.

Training does not have to be pysical or Force-based, it can also be mental and emotional, which is what it was in TLJ - and even if he did mean otherwise, one off-hand comment does not equal foreshadowing or setup for the next film, let alone a time jump.

If Kylo was his singular motivation in life he would have gone off to save him rather then isolated himself in exile; hell, he did'nt even belive that Kylo could be save, and when he confronts him does'nt even try to bring him back.

He can also be depressed both becuse he failed Kylo and becuse Kylo killed his students, you know.

Well, that's TROS throwing a wrench into the engine, is'nt it?

As for Vader he's somewhat more of a main charecter the Obi-Wan in the OT; as I said, he's the main villian, which still puts him higher then a supporting role. His closest equiviliant in the ST would actually be Kylo, it's simply that Kylo is given a bit more focus then Vader - so at the very least I would say Vader is a (slightly) less prominant and (without the benafit of the PT) less-fleshed out charecter then Ren, but still defiantly a main charecter.

He was'nt lying, no. But in the context of the situation actually saying "I never lied" is both overly-smug and dancing around the point (of course that's in charecter for Ren) - a regular person would say something more along the lines of "I did'nt lie but the information that I had was wrong, sorry."

Of course, and I'm sure Kylo Ren would do that - but in this case he did'nt lie, he was just wrong.

So your saying the the Rey thread can't exist without the Kylo tread?

...a dyad in the forum. A power over like and unlike. Unseen in generations...

I'm right there with ya, crat. That being said one still has to acknowladge the out-of-universe intent that occured when an individual peice of work was made, as Johnson obviusly did'nt intend for Ren to be lying or for Rey to be a Palpatine.