ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

Of course it's a comparison. I criticized Reylo for how disgustingly violent 99% of their interactions are leading to that gross kiss, and you responded that Finn and Rey were also violent in their intro. It's a direct comparison and one that I find totally invalid. Violence isn't all equal. We all know that. It's intuitive. It's why there are degrees for crimes in our criminal justice system, and why some violence carries harsher sentences.

I mean the movie where Finn's choices drive the plot forward in all three acts and where Finn is set up to be the underdog hero in a franchise and genre that always has underdog heroes. Rey is the only exception to that rule in SW. And to me, the Finn/Kylo portion of the lightsaber duel puts the Rey/Kylo portion to shame. It was way more visually interesting and intense. I like the Rey/Kylo fight, but I really really think it was bad for Rey's character, for the trilogy, and for that film that Rey won decisively. I get that JJ was going for a girl power moment, but they needed to set her on a growth path. Oh well, they set Finn up for that instead, and then RJ sidelined him.

Finn drives the story the entire time. Without Finn, Kylo gets bb8 in a day and Luke is dead. Without Finn, Rey is dead, multiple times over in fact. No Rey didn't escape SKB, she escaped a room, and she wouldn't have escaped SKB without Finn prioritizing her. Without Finn, Poe is dead and the Resistance has no plan and the shields don't come down. Without Finn, Han and Chewie have no idea what the hell that explosion in the sky was.

Finn coming back for Rey was the only resolution Rey had for her loneliness arc. Yes it was essential. It was the emotional core of the film - those two bonding and fighting for each other, something neither had ever had in their entire lives and wanted. That wasn't "cute." It was the heart of the movie.

The writers couldn't think of Rey having any actual valid reason to care for Kylo, so they invented the word dyad to explain it. That's the point with the lack of agency. Rey likes Kylo even though it makes no sense because dyad, because the plot needs her to.

Rey and Kylo don't fight for each other mutually in TLJ. In TLJ, Rey puts her life in a monster's hand to save his soul like she's the battered woman telling her friends that they don't understand the tortured soul behind the abuse, and Kylo uses her to usurp Snoke and then demand she join him in massacring her friends. Kylo does nothing but terrorize Rey in TFA, TLJ, and RoS until the very end, and Rey continuously defends herself from his terror. It's really really textbook abuse in a disgusting way, and presented as noble or heroic or romantic. It's none of those things. The soul of an abusive, narcissistic piece of crap isn't the responsibility of the woman attracted to him, and it's certainly not noble or healthy or good for her put her life on the line to fix him. This story belongs on the Lifetime network, where Rey's family and friends stage an intervention to get her psychological help.

 

Friendzone is nothing more than a cultural meme for want of a better description. It is a thing, but it is a thing of casual humour and mild derision more than anything else. We can all recognise it, and some will even identify with it. It is being applied here more out of light mischief than anything else, because it seems to fit in the context of how things played out in the trilogy. Rey and Finn may have had deep affection for each other, just like Chewie has deep affection for his buddy Han, but just like them, that's as far as it went (I hope)

 

If it's only casual humor and mild derision, it doesn't warrant being taken seriously as a character explanation for Rey and Finn's relationship. People definitely try to argue seriously that Rey friendzoned Finn in TFA.

 

It is more valid than the idea of a romance, which is even further away from what was depicted than Finn getting friendzoned.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Discussing romantic potential of Finn and Rey hypothetically in a different version of the ST or in subsequent canon is not casual humor or mild derision. It's just a discussion of potential between these two characters. Plus, there actually was romantic intent implied at least from Finn so that is actually a thing in the films.

 

So if there was romantic intent from Finn, it was unrequited and he was left in the friendzone. Ergo, the idea, whilst humorous, is also valid.

 

As you already said, the phrase "friendzone" is derisive. So no, not valid.

 

Han's age is normally given as the age of the actor during principal photography: 33.

Leia's is normally equivalently given as the age of the actress during principal photography: 19.

So Han isn't quite twice Leia's age, but you're still dealing with (essentially) a teenager falling in love with a 30-something guy.

Leia may have a good deal of political experience, but it's implied that Han is more worldly (despite screwing up the rescue in the detention block corridor: "Didn't you have a plan for getting out?") -- certainly compared to Luke. She is clearly attracted to Han over Luke. Age/experience beating out innocence/naivete. That, in my eyes, actually shades into the Rey-Finn discussion. I think Finn lacks that "X factor" that Rey finds in Kylo. Finn might be heroic, but he doesn't read her soul or challenge her in any way. In short, he's too loyal, too nice, too clingy, and too over-eager. I guess we're all making judgements about the characters now.

I do miss the deleted scenes. But I'm confused as to what makes her dumb and spineless, in your own words, in the first half of the picture, and for a good chunk of the second, at least.

What makes her dumb and spineless when she shows that she's glad Anakin, her husband, is still alive and has returned from war? What makes her dumb and spineless when she looks forward to them having their baby on Naboo? What makes her dumb and spineless when she suggests they go to Obi-Wan for help about Anakin's nightmare? What makes her dumb and spineless when she asks Anakin to press the Chancellor to return to diplomacy? What makes her dumb and spineless for observing that democracy is dying a death in the Senate as Palpatine declares the Galactic Empire to cheering? What makes her dumb and spineless when she confronts Anakin on Mustafar, sees that he isn't sorry for his actions, and rejects him, backing off and telling him to stop and "come back"?

Han's always been a sugar daddy. The gifts don't have to be physical. Think a little laterally. Skills, rogue, charm, a "come see the galaxy with me" star-hopping attitude. Han can offer that to Leia, and Luke... not so much. In TFA, the description is more closely satisfied when he gives Rey her first blaster and offers her a job -- or claims to be "thinking about it" -- to join him and Chewie on the Falcon. He would obviously like to have her company. Perhaps as more of a father figure, but that still fits the description.

I'm obviously not wholly uninvested in the interpretation. I'm presenting it as an intellectual exercise. Read back and you should see that clearly enough. You can make these claims about the characters if you're really gunning for them. That's my point. Obviously, if a person thinks a major character, on the side of virtue, is "dumb and spineless" for a "whole movie", then all bets are pretty much off. Why not bash all the characters? Why not despise them all?

 

Uh because people have all kinds of opinions and having one opinion once doesn't mean that opinion is held 100% of the time? Obviously?

Han is not a sugar daddy, nor does Leia need or want a sugar daddy. That's an incredibly inaccurate characterization of their interactions in the OT. Leia isn't taking gifts from Han in exchange for sexual favors. That's completely absurd and ridiculous, and it's a nakedly obvious stretch to try and pretend Reylo is no worse in its chauvinism than Han and Leia, which is itself a totally absurd premise.

 

JJ Abrams’ editors said Michael Arndt’s script for TFA was radically different. They also hinted that Arndt and Abrams did not get along. All of this info comes from the Light the Fuse podcast.

 

It is, but it is also a recognised 'thing 'in popular culture whether you consider it valid or not. That is just down to subjective opinion. Finn and Rey's on-screen relationship led to memes like this, so it is a thing that was obviously observed...

 

I called it shallow and not deserving of being taken seriously as a description of Rey and Finn's relationship, which you apparently agree with anyway. I also don't take memes seriously or view them as enlightening, so there's that. The concept of a friendzone relies on dumb assumptions about friendship and romance, and in the context of the reylo trilogy, it falls apart entirely with how stupid it is. Forced intimacy and torture and murder are not superior to friendship in romance. It just highlights how dumb this story is really.

 

Where's that at? I got this part so far. The podcast is like 2 hours long so I haven't listened to all of it.

Longer cut of the editors quotes from the April 3 podcast:

Maryann Brandon, co-editor of Star Wars: The Force Awakens and Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: “I liked parts of The Last Jedi, yeah." (laughs at Markey's silence instead of reply to the same question) "The Last Jedi – I will say this: It was just a different take on the Star Wars Saga. To Rian [Johnson]’s credit…he stuck to what he wanted to do and he wanted to deconstruct the film and open it up to a different…to go a different direction and that is the film he made and I know it’s controversial but isn’t that kind of good in a way? (laughs)” “[Star Wars: The Last Jedi did] bring new elements [like you just said]…and you kind of…[it was exciting like you just claimed] yeah. So…that’s why I say I feel very much like in hindsight that the trilogy, the last part of the trilogy, needed one vision.” “Right [Rian Johnson kind of did the undoing first in Star Wars: The Last Jedi before Abrams in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker like you just said], it’s like so it went like that.” “Well the third film went with the first film!” “I agree [that Star Wars: The Last Jedi] was really polarizing and I think it was hard to know for the writer and for J. J. [Abrams] what to do with [the story going forward]. Yeah [how do you get the fans back?] or how do you…it’s like if somebody [else] wrote the middle of your novel. You’re like, ‘Okay, now I got to…how do I get the end of the novel?’” (April 3, 2020) (archive)

Mary Jo Markey, co-editor of Star Wars: The Force Awakens: "[Did I like The Last Jedi?] ... (silence) (crosstalk and laughter between host and Brandon) Well we're not lying." “I couldn’t agree more [with Maryann Brandon’s sentiment]. It’s very strange to have the second film so consciously undo the storytelling of the first film. I’m sorry, that’s what it felt like.” “I don’t even really feel that [the accusations are] true about the third film [undoing Star Wars: The Last Jedi], I just…I don’t know, I feel it took where the second film ended and just tried to tell a story. I didn’t feel like it was consciously…I’m trying to…I don’t know, it just didn’t feel that way to me.” (April 3, 2020)

 

"Uh"...

That's not what I was doing -- so take that churlish strawman and throw it in the wastebasket.

I was responding with a thought exercise based on someone bashing Padme with the accusation of her being "dumb and spineless" for a "whole movie".

That is to say: If such an extreme thing can be said of Padme...

What about her daughter, who easily falls for the charms of a rogue smuggler, who works for a crime family; and her just falling into Han's arms without a second thought in the second OT movie, even after he has treated her like crap, felt her up, and all but demanded he kiss her and return his advances?

 

Padme being dumb and spineless in RotS has nothing to do with Leia and Han in the OT. Once again, having an opinion about one character in one movie does not mean that opinion applies in literally any other circumstance that isn't exactly identical. There are quite obviously vast chasms of difference between Anakin/Padme in RotS and Han/Leia in the OT. This is not a serious argument. You might as well be saying, "pfffttt if you think Padme is dumb and spineless in RotS, you must necessarily view all women in any romance as dumb and spineless unless it's a lesbian romance!"

 

I think it is only dumb to some people because it is a rather mischievously cruel but otherwise accurate description of where the character of Finn ended up in the trilogy. Especially if, as you say, he did show a romantic interest in Rey, because he was completely rebuffed.

 

Padme is great in ROTS. I never understood why people dont like her in that. Portman is great and she's great in every single scene, imo. One of the strongest performances in the saga.

 

I don't think it's accurate at all in a serious way because it's a shallow and meaningless phrase that is nothing more than an immature meme. Rey doesn't hold derision for Finn and she didn't reject him romantically. It didn't come up. They could still develop a romantic relationship for these two in comics or books, and they have a very strong foundation for it... if writers totally ignore TLJ and reylo in RoS lol.

 

Apart from the fact they're in the same saga, created and overseen by the same person, yeah, okay...

Tell that to your attack dog, then. Because that's exactly what that other person did.

Someone made a smart analogy about how Ben appealing to Rey in the throne room has overtones/similarities with Anakin appealing to Padme on the landing platform on Mustafar, only for a certain someone else to then fume and hiss that that they "hoped" a positive connection between the wasn't being drawn -- in the same moment, throwing their two cents in and deeming Padme "dumb and spineless" for that entire movie.

Well, yeah...

I am wondering if the hang-ups are almost that great, based on some of the rhetoric and wording in this thread that's been bandied around.

Thank you for this lucid post and your former ones. Very eloquently and carefully put each time.

 

Yes, they do. That's what a sugar daddy is: someone who offers financial and material things in exchange for the company and favors of someone else.

If you cannot present examples of Han giving Leia financial or material gifts in exchange for favors from her, then a sugar daddy interpretation of their relationship is bunk.

And I pointed out that if that was your intent, it'd be better for your argument to acknowledge that was what you were doing instead of buckling down.

You keep trying to do both at the same time: you argue you don't view it as a serious interpretation but at the same time, you're still trying to validate it as a serious interpretation.

You're not going: "Yeah, I know it's a false representation of their relationship. It's just an example of how you can twist any relationship into sounding bad if you try hard enough."

You're going: "Yeah, it's just an example of how you can twist any relationship sounding bad if you try hard enough. Anyway, here's why that interpretation of their relationship is actually valid."

Regardless, applying the sugar daddy dynamic to Han and Leia's relationship so it can use it as an serious/non-serious example doesn't work because no matter how much someone tries to twist things, the relationship won't match with the definition because the components just aren't there.

It works about as well as me arguing that Leia is a duck because she's made of meat and bones and she can probably make noises that someone might mistake for quacking.

Incidentally, here's a picture of Leia as a rubber duck.

 

I'm glad people can find joy in the unnecessary degradation of a character. We all know Star Wars is a series where the heroes are made fun of for caring about someone, and made out to be losers in favor rewarding evil actions.

 

I guess then you have exactly the same opinion on Anakin and Kylo and Luke as the male Skywalkers... or any other totally different characters in only slightly analogous situations.

Who on earth are you calling an attack dog?

Wow you really don't like hearing opinions that differ from yours lol.

 

I argued perfectly well that Han fits the definition of a sugar daddy -- albeit, a little loosely, but he clearly drifts into that category a lot more than his rival (Luke).

Why doesn't Leia get with nice guy Luke? Forget the later brother-sister revelation. Why does she pick Han? Luke is kind, caring, heroic, determined, and clearly believes in the cause of the Rebellion to start with, a lot more than Han. But she is quietly swooning over Han the whole time.

Because it isn't a perfect fit for the description, but it's in the ballpark. That's the problem with a lot of fans. They take things hyper-literally, and anything short of that is struck down as invalid/wrong, with the implication that "you're an idiot" normally being thrown in on top.

Well, some people are denying that the term "friendzone" has any validity as a descriptor whatsoever, so it's obvious that any kind of reasonably fitting label will be dismissed if it seems to have negative connotations; especially when applied to beloved characters/relationships. Those sacred fanboy/fangirl wishes (no matter how much they disagree with reality) must be protected at all costs.

 

Refresh my memory where does Finn lose?

Oh that's right he doesnt.

 

So... again we are reminding you now that incendiary terms including "nazi" are not allowed in these discussions, and also that you continue to address others with tone that is too snarky and insulting. Going forward these things will have to mean vacations from the boards.