Saga Do you view Anakin as mentally ill?

Cure doesn't just mean a medical treatment. It can mean "Something that corrects or relieves a harmful or disturbing situation" And I disagree, the intervention of both Luke in Vader's case, and Leia / Han / Rey in Kylo's were the catalyst required to break them respectively from the hold of the Dark Side. It is a magical power. I feel that this is overlooked in a bid to apply a more grounded rationale for the evil behaviour of Vader and Kylo. It is the Star Wars equivalent of a fairytale magic spell in my opinion. A plot device as old as stories themselves.

 

You're putting responsibility for Vader and Kylo's choices on people besides Vader and Kylo. I don't buy that as a premise at all. Vader and Kylo were persuaded in making their choices, just as people are every day in their lives. They could have made the choices sooner, and they could have opted against the light in the end as well. Ahsoka couldn't persuade Vader. Obi couldn't persuade Vader. Han couldn't persuade Kylo. Leia couldn't persuade Kylo except by dying. They finally made choices both could have made previously and chose not to. That's on nobody but Vader and Kylo. Persuasion isn't a cure under any definition of the word. Vader and Kylo cured themselves by their choices.

 

But with respect, what may be applicable here on Earth is slightly different in a fictional universe in which a fantastical magical power is prevalent and a very real phenomenon for these characters. It gets overlooked time and again. It was completely overlooked in this thread. It's odd to me that this forum, full of Star Wars fans, appears to ignore one of the primary plot elements that makes this franchise what it is.

Both of the respective trilogy's antagonists are "consumed" by a dark magical power that is fed by hate, anger, fear, aggression etc. We know this because other characters tell us so. The apparent antidote, cure, remedy or whatever you want to call it or not, seems to rest in (a) third party intervening and reaching out to them with the polar elements of those things, love, compassion, friendship etc.

Any choices that the character consumed by the dark side makes in these films is made after that intervention. The restoration in either case depends on it. I think that it is a safe assumption to suggest that both Vader and Kylo Ren would have continued on with their nefarious ways had they, theoretically, had no contact from Luke or Han / Leia / Rey respectively. That choice would not have been something they would have made autonomously. But of course, the story we all know depends on such interaction.

 

Well with respect, all that was depicted in the fantastical fictional universe full of magical powers was two evil people choosing not to be evil anymore. That isn't me ignoring plot threads. That's me literally describing plot.

The antidote is portrayed to be their choice. It is never presented anywhere that the only way a dark Sider can return to the light is if someone else begs them to. If that were the case, again, dark siders besides the privileged Skywalkers should have the same opportunity, and Vader and Kylo both should have been saved by others way before each finally was.

And yes, Vader and Kylo would have stayed on the dark but for certain circumstances occurring. That doesn't make them diseased or victims. It means their choice wouldn't have changed because both were only persuadable in a very narrow set of circumstances. Vader needed to choose between his son's life and the Emperor. Kylo needed... Leia to die and Rey to force heal him, and then he needed to forgive himself via a fantasy of Han.

 

I would not try to diagnose Anakin with any specific mental disorder, I am not qualified and I don't think the film was made to show that.

I do think he has issues though.
He is arrogant and a show off, he feels the rules don't apply to him. He tries to bottle up his emotions instead of dealing with them.

I think that part of the problem is that Anakin can recite the lessons but he hasn't truly learned, he hasn't truly understood what they mean.
I also think part of the problem is that unlike all other Jedi, Anakin had an attachment to his mother and he did not let go of it and I think the Jedi did not know how to help him do that. They were used to young children that come with no attachments to their parents so no problem. Anakin did have that so they just went with their "One size fits all" teaching. But here it didn't work. That is on Anakin to be sure but I think the Jedi should have realized that this was special circumstances and made extra efforts.
I also think that having Anakin trained by a Jedi who just became a knight and had never trained anyone before was not all that bright.

Palpatine had an impact sure, but Anakin would have spent way more time with the Jedi than Palpatine.

In all, Anakin, Palpatine and the Jedi all bear some responsibility for what happened.
Anakin is responsible for his own actions but the influence of Palpatine played a major part. The Jedi, to me, can not wash their hands on this.

To give some examples, you have the obvious ones, anger, fear and hate. Jedi are not supposed to have those emotions.
Greed, pride and jealousy are also things a Jedi should not feel.

Then you have romantic love, that is a no-no.
Also, familial love, love to/from parents, siblings, children. Jedi are taken from their families at a very young age to sever those ties.

Also, grief and mourning. Yoda says very clearly "Mourn them do not, miss them do not".

So I think the Jedi are very much trying to limit or banish certain emotions.
Them taking children at a very young age and then raising them in a controlled environment and all their bans of certain things.
That is indicative of that, to me at least.

First, I would think most nine year old's, if they were separated from their parents/parent and might not be able to see them again, would miss said parents and fear for them.
Add to that the slavery aspect, then Anakin's feelings are very normal and natural.
But the Jedi don't seem to realize this.
They don't look at the whole situation and try to understand why Anakin is scared and feels alone and misses his mother.

I would be more worried if Anakin or any child, didn't miss their parents given the situation.

Second, the Jedi are aware of Anakin's fear about his mother. Do they do anything about it?
No.
They would realize that for ex freeing Shmi from slavery would greatly help to put Anakin's mind at ease.
If he knew that she was free and lived a good life, he would worry less and would have an easier time to let go.
But he didn't.
Instead what I think happened is that he tried to bury his feelings, to pretend that he wasn't attached to his mother. Because that is how he is told a Jedi should be, so he tries to do that.
But he doesn't deal with his emotions, he tries to bury and ignore them until he can't any longer.
And they come out in a very bad way.

Third, Anakin made a promise to come back and free his mother. That is a promise he has been unable to deliver on for ten years. That has to knaw on him.
Also, I think it very likely that Anakin would have asked Obi-Wan if they couldn't help his mother.
Their only answer would be "No, we won't help her."
So that I think was a small seed of discord between Anakin and the Jedi.
He could see these very powerful people and yet they won't lift a finger to help his mother. A person that helped them.

These things are, I think, part of why Anakin is like he is in AotC.
Ten years of worry and fear, trying to act like nothing but deep down those feelings fester. Ten years of an unfulfilled promise and also asking the Jedi to help but getting turned down.

Anakin was left not knowing how his mother was doing.
That can in some cases be worse that knowing.
Ex say a couple looses a child in an accident or illness. That is bad, they would feel terrible, mourn, miss that child. But hopefully they can eventually move on, not to forget but get on with their lives.

But if a couple has a child just go missing and they don't know what happened.
Cops get involved, a search is done and all that. And nothing, no news.
They don't know if their child is dead or alive.
This could be worse. They are left in limbo, should they accept their child as dead and mourn and then try to move on? That is not easy.

In closing,to me, the PT Jedi come across as dogmatic, rigid and are so focused on rules that they can no longer really see the people. They seemed cold and a bit uncaring. Not Qui-Gon, him I did see care, for ex with Shmi. When he asks her if she will be alright. He puts his hand on her shoulder and she grasps it. That was a nice scene and I liked it. The other jedi not so much.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

But we know that the Force, and the Dark Side of the Force is an actual phenomenon, a thing that exists in this universe. We know because not only do other characters refer to it, we see its effects. The way that you have highlighted "fantastical fictional universe full of magical powers" in your reply comes across as rather dismissive of it, as if you don't acknowledge its presence in the franchise.

I didn't assert that somebody has to beg them to return to the light. I only suggested that in both trilogies the respective Dark Sider appears unable to make that step without intervention from a third party.

I disagree. I think that the closest analogy to their situation is that of an addict, and addiction is a disease. The sufferers are often considered victims. Both Vader and Kylo Ren made the choice to "start down the dark path", and in fact both were encouraged by Palpatine and his proxy, Snoke, we now know that. But once caught in this, we are told that "forever will it dominate your destiny". The implication being that once a person is on the Dark Side, it is very, very difficult to extricate themselves. We are also told that they become "twisted by the Dark Side" which implies that this power has a corrosive effect on a person. The catalyst for both Vader and Kylo Ren to climb out of this "quagmire" was outside intervention, and it required the opposite traits to those on the Dark Side. Very basic fairytale stuff at its heart.

 

Yes Anakin didn’t really learn much of what the Jedi taught but I don’t think he lacked understanding of their meaning – he simply didn’t take what he was taught to heart unless it benefited himself in some way. To me it seemed like Anakin wanted to become a Jedi because he thought it meant he would got to do whatever he like – he could return to Tatooine and “free all the slaves”. Choosing the Jedi way was the means to an end and not the end goal itself.

Yes, I also think the Jedi were traversing unknown terrain concerning Anakin, but at the same time we know very little of Anakin’s early years in the Temple and we don’t know if they made extra efforts and to what extend, or if they didn’t. IMO, the fear of losing his loved ones was so ingrained in him – and something he clung to so dearly – that I doubt there was any Jedi who could have helped Anakin because as we see in RotS, Anakin knows what to do to help him deal with this fear – “Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose” – but he is unwilling to do so.

I think the Jedi should have followed their first inclination in TPM and not trained Anakin, but on the other hand with the emergence of the Sith I understand why they did it.

The amount of time is a very small factor in such matters; rather it’s how they “get to you”. We humans more or less knowingly sort the knowledge and information presented to us, and chose what best fits our opinions, impressions and feelings. Anakin is a person with a big ego and very low self-esteem (no surprise considering his early life as a slave) and as such require constant validation, approval, satisfaction, and attention from others. Palpatine always tailored his words to suit Anakin the best, and thus his words would always have greater weight for Anakin.

But what exactly were the Jedi supposed to have done to stop Anakin from turning to the dark side? As shown by RotS, Anakin was unwilling to try and deal with his fear of loss and the only thing that could sway his decision was the promise to save Padmé. The Jedi could never have made that promise even if they wanted to.

I still see no concrete evidence that they’re not allowed to have emotions but, yes, they certainly strived not to be ruled by them. When Anakin openly admits his fear of loss to Yoda he is neither censored or reproached or told it’s wrong. Instead he is warned (rightly so) and is counselled on how to deal with it – not by ignoring it or trying to not feel but to train himself to let these emotions have less power over him.

Again, emotions are chemical and electrical signals in the brain and they occur whether we want them too or not, and I think that was common knowledge in GFFA – even for the Jedi Order. If they truly wanted to root out emotions they could simply have all of their members undergo brain surgery – e.g. if they made changes to the amygdala then fear would no longer be a problem.

From what I’ve seen in the PT, OT, and TCW, the Jedi are never taught not to feel, but they learn the dangers of certain emotions and a part of their training is to learn how not to let these emotions cloud their judgement and actions, and not to be ruled by them.

I always did find Yoda’s “Rejoice for those around us who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not.” to be an odd thing to say – especially because the few Jedi funerals we do see on screen there is not much rejoicing for the dead nor does Yoda himself seemed to be overjoyed seeing his fellow Jedi dead in the Temple (quite the opposite in fact) – and mourning is a natural, healthy mechanism when experiencing a loss of some sort.

But again, I don’t see any Jedi being reproached for mourning so I don’t think Yoda’s words should be taken as a Jedi rule, they seem more like the consolation a priest would offer to someone who had lost a dear one: “don’t be sad he/she is in a better place”, which for many people (not Anakin though) are an effective coping mechanism, so maybe he was hoping Anakin could use something like that to help him deal with his fear of loss…

I agree, Anakin’s fear of loosing his mother is completely normal and rational, and I don’t see them reproach him for it, but they do inform him in no uncertain ways that this is very dangerous for a Jedi.

We know from studies that strong emotions in early life will cause permanent physical and biochemical changes in our brain, and that these changes will affect our behaviour through life even if the emotions that caused them are long since past.

The Jedi Council knew very well that the conditions of Anakin’s life had given him an emotional baggage that made him especially susceptible to the dark side which is why they denied him to be trained in the first place.

I don’t think the Jedi are in a position to offer specific help to the relatives of their members – I actually think it could be quite the scandal because it would be nepotism: it’s one thing to obtain a slave because that person can become a Jedi, but if the public found out that the Jedi went out of their way to help one slave outside of the Republic simply because that person happened to be the mother of one of their members. I think people would rightly start asking: what about all the others? Or what about my friend who..? Why are the Jedi playing favourites? So I gave my child to the Jedi and I’m in a very bad situation, will the Jedi help me also? So the Jedi have the time and resources to help people related to their own members, but not when it came to this matter in which many people died?

IMO it would be the same situation if a person would get access to a rare and expensive treatment exclusively on the basis of being a relative or close friend to the doctor in charge. I’m sure there would be many who would find it okay, but the critics of the Jedi Order would have fresh fuel to add – and rightly so.

If anyone should have helped Shmi I think it should have been Padmé: she had the power, the means and the justification to do so.

I mostly agree with this, except I don’t think their answer would have been: "No, we won't help her." but rather: "No, we can't help her."

Yes, I’m sure it wouldn’t have changed Anakin’s feeling on the matter, but I think his disappointment stems from the fact that he had always believed that the Jedi were in a position that allowed for them to do whatever they wanted.

Yeah, I think most would prefer the first scenario, but I think that in Anakin’s case it wouldn’t have mattered in the end. When he has visions of Padmé dying it doesn’t matter that she doesn’t suffer from some kind of condition that endangeres her life, that there are no death threats or attempts on her life, or that the chances of her dying in childbirth with the kind of technology and medical knowledge available to her is nearly impossible, he goes into full fear-mode. So I don’t think it would take more than a missed call from Shmi, even if he knew she was in the most secure place in the galaxy, to make him go into fear-overdrive. His childhood experiences had ensured that would be the way he responds.

You are entitled to your opinion of cause, but I still don’t see much evidence for it – I mean why would Obi-Wan even bother with the hostages of Ryloth when the goal was to take out canons? If the Jedi cared so little about the people why would they risk their lives to uphold peace and justice in the galaxy?

Yes they had rules and many would consider them rigid because they had obviously served the Order well for many years – and the ones who fail to follow them are the ones that turn to darkness and commit atrocities.

Qui-Gon naturally has the advantage of being placed in a situation were he can be shown to care, but we don’t know how a different Jedi would have behaved in the same situation so there is no way of knowing if Qui-Gon is exceptional in this matter or not. Naturally, it is easier to label a person as cold and uncaring if we have never seen said person in a situation where they had an opportunity to express it, but often that is a matter of circumstances and not how a person really is or feels. We don’t see that many interactions between the Jedi and civilians, but I don’t see any coldness between Yoda and Padmé or Obi-Wan and Dex.

 

None of this negates the choice Vader and Kylo made, and it certainly doesn't put responsibility for their choices on other people, rendering them passive victims.

There is no intervention by a third party into the phenomenon of the dark side. The "intervention" you speak of is some person or people trying to reason with Vader and Kylo.

Addiction isn't basic fairy tale stuff, and I'll reiterate, once the choice to return to the light is made, Vader and Kylo have no lingering affects of a chemical-like addiction. They made a choice, they released the dark side, and they were free. Addicts are not capable of such a choice. The point of Vader and Kylo, imo, is the choice. The point of the dark side versus the light is choice. A person's character is revealed by the dark side. Not everyone is similarly tempted to turn evil to feel like a god. Vader and Kylo fell, but were still reachable in super limited circumstances only by people they cared for somewhere inside.

 

Long before he donned the mask of Darth Vader, Anakin Skywalker is instructed to wear another mask: a mask of emotional invulnerability. In Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace, a young Anakin is identified as being Force-sensitive. As a result, he’s taken away from his mother and his home planet to be trained as a Jedi warrior, but when he’s presented to the Jedi Council, he’s soundly rejected, and Yoda rejects this nine-year-old boy because he’s too emotional…and why is he deemed too emotional? Well, it’s because he admits he misses his mother. His mother who, let’s remember, the Jedi have just left enslaved to an unscrupulous junk dealer in another part of the galaxy.

I want to underscore the message being presented here. Anakin’s feelings of pain and loss are understandable and completely normal, but instead of getting the emotional support that he so desperately needs, this child is instead publicly shamed for expressing his feelings of grief and sadness, and that’s because emotional detachment is valued above all else in the Jedi Order. Young Jedi are instructed to sever all close emotional connections to the people they care about. They must learn to hide their feelings from others, deny their emotional selves, and always present a stoic exterior to the world.

Now at this point, some Star Wars fans may be saying to themselves: “Hold on, I thought the Jedi were all about feelings?” Well, not exactly. Jedi Masters do encourage students of the Force to trust their intuition; think of it as a Jedi’s sixth sense, but they’re also sternly warned to always keep their emotions buried deep inside.

To be clear, Jedi Masters don’t push stoicism on boys to be cruel or malicious. They, like many well-meaning people in the real world, firmly believe that boys need to disassociate from their feelings and learn to tough it out in silence, but regardless of the intentions, leaving young men emotionally abandoned is psychologically damaging and extremely unhealthy. Author bell hooks describes this emotional hardening process thusly:

By which she means that emotional disconnection has become synonymous with manhood itself. Viewed through this lens, Yoda’s words to the young Anakin Skywalker are downright traumatizing.

We start to see the fallout from Jedi teachings in Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones where we rejoin Anakin as a bratty entitled teenager, a teenager who’s still struggling to follow the imperative of emotional detachment. Even though he’s been clearly instructed to forget about his mother, Anakin senses that something is wrong, and his concern for her well-being transforms into premonition-filled nightmares. Anakin still isn’t getting the emotional support that he needs. Instead he’s just meant to put his mother’s suffering out of his mind. As a Jedi in training, he must strive to become an autonomous, detached emotional island. Anakin’s inability to bury his anxieties about his mom’s well-being is seen as a manifestation of his emotional volatility.

In fact, throughout the prequel trilogy, men’s expression of grief is consistently demonized. Crying in particular is framed as evidence of a dangerous loss of control. Whenever we see tears from Anakin, it’s always meant to represent his weakness of character, and communicate to the viewer that he’s being seduced by the dark side.

Contrary to popular opinion, men burying their feelings is not a sign of strength. Real strength is having the courage to ask for help, the courage to talk about your feelings, the courage to risk being vulnerable in front of others. But the Jedi Order forbids any of that.

George Lucas likes to say that the Jedi are compassionate, but there’s an important caveat there. The Jedi practice an impersonal, detached, bird’s-eye-view sort of compassion, one that’s decidedly unconcerned with the suffering of individual people, which is why the Jedi don’t lift a finger to try to help Anakin’s enslaved mom despite their considerable influence and resources.

Anakin longs for human contact, but since Jedi dogma prohibits attachments, he must satisfy his emotional needs in secret. He conceals his marriage to Padmé Amidala and hides her pregnancy from everyone around him. When Anakin attempts to seek advice from Yoda about his continuing nightmares in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith, he does so without revealing his secret concern for the safety of his wife and unborn children, and he gets what might be the worst advice in the history of the galaxy. “The fear of loss is a path to the dark side. Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” I just need to pause here for a moment because, although Yoda’s words are framed as a form of enlightened wisdom, his advice is truly unhinged. Had Yoda been interested in actually helping Anakin, he could’ve done a whole host of things. First, he could have acknowledged and validated Anakin’s fears. He could have listened and shown a little bit of empathy, and he could have encouraged Anakin to seek counseling for his obvious trauma and anxiety, but Jedi orthodoxy prevents Yoda from doing any of that. So instead Anakin is essentially told to stop caring so much, and that if something tragic were to happen to his loved ones, he should just be happy about it. Now it’s true that men being possessive of women is a negative thing, but that’s not what’s happening in Anakin’s story. In this scene, he’s just afraid for the safety of his family, which brings us to one of the central themes in Jedi philosophy: In both trilogies fear is framed as the gateway drug to the dark side. We hear Yoda warn against this emotion in the most ominous of tones.

In reality, of course, fear, like most human emotions, serves an important physiological function. It can help keep us safe and healthy. You’d think a quasi-spiritual organization that preaches balance in all things would understand that, but Jedi teachings leave no room for such subtleties, and that’s because Jedi philosophy is constructed around what I’d call an emotional domino theory. “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!” Setting aside George Lucas’s misappropriation of some spiritual concepts that originated in Asia, that formula is incredibly reductive, and also not how emotions work. Being afraid is not a slippery slope to all-consuming evil, and yet this emotional domino-effect theory is core to the Jedi belief system. They believe that young men are inherently volatile and if they succumb to one intense emotion, it will spark an inevitable chain reaction that leads to hatred, like knocking over a set of dominoes.

So let’s see if we can untangle some of the twisted logic here. Even though Yoda starts his bizarre equation with fear, that’s not the first domino in the chain. Notice that he warns about the fear of loss, which he says stems from emotional attachments to other people. This is why the Jedi Order expressly forbids romance and prohibits its members from having families. Just so we’re clear on what that means, according to the Jedi, loving relationships with another person lead men down the path to evil. Although the Jedi caution against emotional attachments in general, close relationships with women in particular are framed as the most dangerous. This is made especially evident in the prequel trilogy, where emotional bonds with women are framed as something that eats away at a man’s sanity, and, indirectly, drives men to fits of uncontrollable rage. By the end of Episode III, it’s been made abundantly clear that Anakin turns into Darth Vader because he’s unable to suppress his love for the women in his life.

Embedded in that plot point is a toxic idea; the idea that emotional intimacy and connection with women represents a loss of control for men. The framing of relationships with women as something that drains men of their autonomy, their power or their control is not a new storytelling device. It goes all the way back to Samson and Delilah and beyond. Though in George Lucas’s version, women don’t actively sabotage men. Instead they serve as the impetus for men’s instability, and that message - that women are the catalyst for men’s loss of control- is part of a deeply sexist worldview. It’s an especially pernicious myth because it fosters resentment towards women and also encourages men to view healthy expressions of emotional intimacy with suspicion.

For those of us who grew up as fans of the original trilogy, it can be tempting to pin all the blame for this on the prequels. Unfortunately, there are echoes of everything we’ve been talking about here in Luke’s story as well. In Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan Kenobi articulates the second reason the Jedi demand that boys tightly control their emotions. He instructs Luke to bury his love for Leia because, if he doesn’t, his feelings will be seen as a weakness, and will make him vulnerable to the manipulation and control of other men. The Emperor’s master plan for turning Anakin to the dark side follows the same logic. It revolves around exploiting the weakness of Anakin’s love for Padmé, and the narrative lessons for both protagonists closely mirror hyper-masculine socialization in the real world. Men and boys are taught to hide their feelings because, we are told, expressing vulnerability demonstrates weakness, and leaves them open to being manipulated or dominated by their rivals.

The stoic imperative is expected of men in our society but it’s an unhealthy ideal for people of any gender. As we’ve discussed, listening to the teachings of Yoda and Obi-Wan is a guaranteed recipe for creating lonely, angry, broken people. Like all human beings, men and boys need love. They need affection, they need emotional support, and they need opportunities to openly communicate their feelings. The glorification of emotional detachment is one of the more pervasive and insidious messages about masculinity in popular media, and we as men need to organize a rebellion against it.

 

The impression I get is that the Original Six are promoting the idea that Jedi stoicism and Sith self-centeredness are both wrong. In the end, balance is what's needed. That's why Luke succeeds where Anakin failed. Ani tried to satisfy the Jedi and found no peace there. So, he tried to follow the Sith lie and lost everything. Luke, however, found the middle ground. He'll fight for freedom, but he won't murder for it. He loves his sister, but he won't turn to evil to protect her. He wants to live, but he's willing to die to save his father. He wants to be a Jedi, but not if it means letting the innocent suffer. And, in the end, he wins more than he loses. The galaxy is on the way to freedom, his friends are saved, his father is redeemed, and he achieves the Knighthood he'd worked for. (As an aside, I think Qui-Gon was close to that balance, in that he could deeply care for others, yet not be drawn to evil over it. Kenobi showed signs of this, too, but was still held back over his commitment to "no emotions, no attachments".)
To cite another example, Han is, as noted in "Solo", a good guy, to his chagrin. He wants to be self-centered, and look out for no one but himself and Chewie and maybe a few others. But he doesn't want to care about anyone else. And the rest of the galaxy can go to blazes. But what makes him come around and truly care for others and be willing to take a real stand for it is how others are attached to him. His friends could've just abandoned him and focused on the big picture (as Yoda and Kenobi preached), but they didn't. They worked hard to save him, and that inspired him to fully step forward and fight alongside them. And that brought victory.
Getting back to the original question, Ani was troubled, but he wasn't mentally ill. He knew what he was doing, and both things he tried didn't work for him. As a result, he caused a lot of pain for himself and others. In the end, Luke's balanced view is what led him to peace.

 

AotC Anakin I can certainly see as someone that enjoys the power he has. He likes to show off, he wants positions. He buts in and says "Excuse me but I am in charge of security". In RotS he gets offended by being denied a rank.
Some of that might be there in TPM, he likes to race and the attention it gives him. But he wanted to help to people, he was giving with little though of reward.
By AotC he is more interested with the reward bit.

We know that the Jedi gave Obi-Wan the job to train Anakin. A Jedi that had just become a knight and had trained zero students. That they didn't see a problem here, to me, indicates that they gave no further help.
The issue isn't even mentioned. No "Hmm, Obi-Wan has never trained any students, do you think he is up to this?"
Also nothing is said about Obi-Wan getting any support from other masters in either film or Anakin spending any time with other masters.

What they should have done, as already mentioned, free Shmi. Anakin is their promised chosen one, that makes him a special case.
Give help and support to Obi-Wan, who has never trained a student before.
Obi-Wan is very by the book while Qui-Gon seemed more loose with the rules.
This makes sense, Qui-Gon is older, more experienced and thus he knows which rules matter and which could be bent. Obi-Wan has not that experience and so he tries to be strict. With mixed results.

By the time of RoS, a lot of damage has already happened so now they have much less options.
One thing could be to not be so ****ish to Anakin.
They must know that he is close to Palpatine and trusts him. So just asking him to spy on him, more or less betraying him, that did not go down well. And the Jedi should have been aware of that.
Obi-Wan seemed to understand and he was apparently against this.
So they did this, against the advice of Anakin's mentor?

Other thing, when Anakin tells Mace about Palpatine, instead of running away, sword drawn, Mace could take Anakin with him and set up an emergency council meeting. Masters only.
Get as many master as he can, explain the situation and make some sort of plan, don't rush of half-cocked.
If Anakin had been with Mace and co when they first entered, what would happen?
Anakin was totally fine with an arrest, which is what Mace was going for.
If Palpatine attacked anyway, would Anakin still just watch or get involved.

Going back earlier, in TPM, the Jedi could see Anakin's thoughts and that he feared loosing his mother.
That was a big worry.
So during the ten years between TPM and AotC, that fear of loss never went away but didn't the Jedi notice?
Since they can read his thoughts, couldn't they test him again and see if he has gotten this fear of loss under control?
Either they did not do this. Which is odd given how much of a problem that fear and worry was to the Jedi.
Or they did and saw that he still had not learned. Then they know that their lessons are not working and they need to do something else.
If they did read his thoughts but Anakin was able to hide his true feelings?
Could he do that at age 10/11? Or even at age 19/20?

They ban marriages, they ban any contact with families, they take children at a very young age, they raise them in a controlled environment. I think this is evidence enough that they try to ban certain emotions.

In RotS, Obi-Wan says this;

So there are things that are not Jedi thoughts.
Again showing that a Jedi is supposed to think in a certain manner and some things are not supposed to be in a Jedi's thoughts.

I agree and I find the scene to be baffling and the wise Yoda comes across as an uncaring and a bit stupid. Is he this bad at reading people?
Plus we see a Jedi funeral in TPM and it did not seem like a happy occasion.

If Yoda thought what he said would help Anakin then he is a big idiot.
What he said was cold and uncaring.
My brother lost his wife to cancer a few years ago and it hurt him badly for a time but he is ok now.
Had I told him what Yoda said, as he was standing there weeping at the funeral, he likely would have punched me in the face.

No, what he said sounded like dogma. Inflexible, uncaring and cold.

I saw them scolding Anakin for it.
And I don't think Anakin's first nine years had left him permanently scarred or damaged by fear.
In TPM he came across as a a happy, go lucky kid, very well adjusted given his situation.
I know that Lucas went kid gloves with slavery as not to be too scary. But my problem with that is that it presented Anakin's slave life as very happy.
He and his mother had a house, with room for guests. They had plenty of food, Anakin had lots of spare time, he could things he loved doing.
Yes on paper he and his mother were slaves, with all that means. But if you shy away from so much of it, it risks coming across as a minor thing.

So his fear was that of any nine year old, with a bit of slavery added to that.

However in AotC, now he has ten years of fear and worry and an unfulfilled promise festering in his mind.
And now it shows.
Had Anakin stayed on Tatooine, with his mother and been able to make money to free her, then I don't think he would be the same person we saw in AotC.

First, I agree that Padme should have helped and to me it does not fit with her character to do nothing.
But here we have an obvious solution, have Obi-Wan contact Padme and ask her.
Anakin saved her planet so she rewarding him by freeing his mother from slavery would make all the sense. Also, Shmi helped a Jedi in his mission and risked the life of her only son in the process. She is not undeserving of help.

Second, have the Jedi never come across a situation where a Force sensitive child is found but the parents live in extreme poverty or misery?
Qui-Gon said that if Anakin had been born in the republic, he would have been identified early.
But I think poverty still exists there.

So if they give the child to the Jedi, do the Jedi just say "Thank you for your child, try not to starve to death." and leave?
Aren't the Jedi supposed to be compassionate, try to help?
If they see that the child's parents are starving and would likely die from undernourishment or disease within weeks. If they just shrug and move on, that is very cold.

In the republic, Jedi are allowed to take children, I assume that the parents are given a say in this.
If this system is in place, wouldn't it make sense that parents in these instances get some manner of compensation? They are giving up their children, for ever.
And the reason why is easy to explain. Fear is bad for Jedi, and if a child, taken to become a Jedi, knows that their parents are starving or miserable, that will case fear in that child and make matters worse.
So to ease the child's worry and make the separation from their parents less traumatic, the Jedi are allowed to give some form of help if it is needed.

Third, to me the argument, "We can't do this, it might look bad on us." That sounds like a politician to me.
"Oh I want to help, really I do, but doing so might hurt my re-election or my poll numbers."

Qui-Gon tried to free Shmi and I saw nothing in TPM that indicated that he was breaking the rules or that what he did would reflect poorly on the Jedi.
There was some EU book that had Qui-Gon send something valuable to Shmi to help her.
Simple and nice.

To have the Jedi offer these kinds of excuses, "We want to help but the rules don't allow it, the senate will ask questions" and things like that.
That adds to me the feeling that the Jedi come across as cold and distant.
They care more about rules, orders, dogma, their public appearance and less about helping people.

Disagree, Anakin was left to stew in fear and uncertainty for ten years, that damaged him.
Had Shmi been freed soon after TPM, then one stone would have fallen from his chest.
Had he been allowed some form of contact he could have begun to let go of his attachment, to grow up and away from his mother. Most people do this. They are dependent on their parents or primary caregiver and as time goes on, that dependency and attachment is lessened. And eventually they can move on.
So even if something had happened to Shmi, say 8 years after TPM, then I think that it would not have as bad an effect on Anakin. Because he would not have 8 years of fear and worry amplifying his emotions.

No PT Jedi ever asked to become a Jedi, they were not given a choice. They were taken in at a young age and then spent all their childhood being trained for one thing and one thing only. To be a Jedi.
So why would any of them question this?
It is all they know.
Duty, responsibility, tradition are other possible answers.
The Jedi are an institution, a very old one. They have protected and served the Republic for many millennia.
Why would anyone question it?
"We have always done this so why stop now." is an all too common answer.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

No not too emotional per se, but because they sensed too much fear in him which is a path to the dark side. And they should have stood by that decision because it is that very fear that later caused Anakin to fall to the dark side and commit genocide.

Anakin is not taken away, he is given the choice to stay or leave. Qui-Gon did try to free Shmi along with Anakin even if he didn’t have to. Why would it be the responsibility of the Jedi Order to free Shmi? Should the Jedi engage in nepotism and offer specific help to the relatives of all their members?

The Jedi Order is not an emotional support group; their evaluation of Anakin has nothing to do with what is normal for a nine year old boy with his background and what is not. The Jedi Order has a great responsibility when deciding who to train because their members become both powerful and extremely dangerous if they allow themselves to be ruled by emotions. It is no different from the psychological evaluations militaries around the world use to screen applicants before their entrance into service.

I don’t see any shaming at all – and how can anything that happens in a small, closed circle be “publicly”? But he is being told he will not be trained. He is not being told he is wrong to have these feelings, but they do make it clear that they are a problem for a Jedi.

What is your evidence for this?

When we’re introduced to Ashoka, who was raised in the Temple, she certainly does not hide her emotions or “present a stoic exterior to the world”. Obi-Wan is friends with Dex, Satine, and Padmé. Yoda has good relations with the Wookies, and when he meets Padmé in AotC he even tells her that: “Seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart.”

What is your evidence for this?

That’s all well and good, if it was actually in any way relevant. What is your evidence that the Jedi taught their apprentices “to disassociate from their feelings and learn to tough it out in silence”?

The RotS shows us quite clearly that this is simply not the case: when Anakin talks with Yoda he admits his fears and is not reproached or told it’s wrong. Instead he is gently warned of the dangers it entails and is told to deal with it by training himself so that the fear has less power over him – not by ignoring it or trying to not feel.

Again, where is your evidence? In the elevator scene Anakin does not hide his excitement/anxiety about seeing Padmé again and Obi-Wan does not censor or reproach him for it – in general, throughout the PT and TCW, Anakin does a very poor job of keeping his feelings for Padmé a secret to the world, but even though they are obvious to everyone he is not censored or reproached for them.

Evidence please?

No, we are told he is having dreams about her. Only later are we told that the dreams are of her suffering and they may be more then dreams. Obi-Wan offered the emotional support he could based on the information Anakin provided him with.

I don’t know how you reached that interpretation, but saying that crying represents weakness sounds like something a Sith would say, and I strongly disagree: crying is always showed when the characters are faced with great emotional pain (naturally):
- Obi-Wan cries when his father-figure dies in his arms
- Anakin cries when his mother dies in his arms
- Anakin cries when he believes his decision to turn Palpatine in will result in Padmé’s death

In these instances, crying is signs of grief.

- Anakin cries (or nearly does) after having slaughtered the sandpeople
- Anakin cries after having killed his fellow Jedi, slaughtered small children, and assassinated the leaders of the Confederacy of Independent Systems (who were more or less defenseless)

When I see Anakin cry, it represents the internal struggle inside him – it proves he knows that what he has done is wrong, and that he is still capable of feeling remorse for his actions. He is not completely gone yet.

I agree that asking for help is a sign of strength, but that the “Jedi Order forbids any of that” is directly disproven by the films and TCW.

I guess it comes down to the philosophical discussion on who we best help the poorest in our world: do we give money to a few starving persons in Africa and thus ensure they have a good life, or do we give the money to an organization whose projects can help far more people simply survive. I personally think the latter is better, but I might get a greater sense of satisfaction in the more direct approach. Either way both approaches stems from compassion. I think the Jedi were right to prioritize their, as shown by the opening crawl of AotC, their limited resources to uphold the peace and justice in the Republic (which was their duty) and thus help as many as possible even if it was indirectly.

Why would it be the responsibility of the Jedi Order to free Shmi when she lived outside their jurisdiction? What about Kitster and all the other slaves who may have been suffering even worse than Shmi? And when the Jedi have freed all the slaves and the former slave owners acquire new ones, increasing the demand for more slaves, what then? As I wrote to Samuel Vimes:

Anakin was free to leave the Jedi Order at any time he wanted to satisfy his emotional needs.

He doesn’t reveal his relationship with Padmé or her condition, but he does reveal he fears for someone dear to him (and anyone who knew Anakin even a little bit would know that the “close one” was either Obi-Wan, Padmé, or Ashoka):

Yoda: Premonitions, premonitions. These visions you have...
Anakin: They are of pain, suffering. Death.
Yoda: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?
Anakin: Someone.
Yoda: Close to you?
Anakin: Yes.
Yoda: Careful you must be when sensing the future Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.
Anakin: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

First, when “the future is always in motion” how can you possibly acknowledge and validate someone’s very vague fears when they are based purely on premonitions? Padmé is perfectly healthy, there is nothing to indicate there is something troubling about her pregnancy, she has not received death threats nor has attempts been made on her life, she has access to the best of the best medical assistance in a galaxy with technology and medical knowledge far superior to what we have in our world when it’s time to give birth. Anakin’s fear is not rational, and the reason Padmé end up dying in childbirth is because of his actions trying to prevent it.

It is very common for and perfectly natural for children to have fears about loosing their parents, but if they don’t learn how to cope with that fear it will turn into an anxiety that can be very detrimental to them. Therefore it is imperative that they learn that while their parents will die at some point, the chances of them doing so in the near future are very slim – they cannot be ruled by fear and therapy always focus on lessening that fear.

Yoda does not come off as unsympathetic to me, but he rightly warns Anakin that the fear of loss leads to the dark side, which it does in Anakin’s case, and he essentially gives him the same advice a counselor would give: you need to lesson your sense of fear – and in the Jedi’s case it’s to first accept that death is ultimately inevitable and train oneself to let go of the things you fear to lose. It is perfectly sound advice because death is a natural part of life, loosing those we love is a natural part of life. Unfortunately the only thing Anakin was interested in hearing was: “Well, then, you’re in luck my friend, because we do have this very special Jedi healing power that can stop anyone from dying. Come I’ll teach it to you.”

They certainly are, but allowing yourself to be ruled by emotions like fear, anger and hate is not healthy. I can assure you, if you ever have a period of your life in which you are filled with hate and anger towards another person, it’s like drinking poison while expecting the one your hate and anger is directed towards to feel all the effects of that poison. Fear can lead to anxiety which can become truly detrimental for a person.

Again, both the PT and TCW shows that the Jedi have plenty of such “subtleties”.

And the Jedi teaching are proven right: this is the path Anakin follows and the one Luke nearly follows.

Being afraid? No. Being consumed by fear? Yes

To a Jedi attachment is forbidden because it is the complete opposite of compassion. Lucas makes a very clear distinction between attachment, which is a jealous manifestation of love tied up with possession and is therefore selfish, and the selflessness of compassion. The Jedi are not supposed to love one person more than all the others – and they are certainly not supposed to slaughter innocent people just to save that one person.

No, the PT shows us how a selfish person forms a very unhealthy relationship (attachment) with another person – genders have nothing to do with it; Obi-Wan has a perfectly healthy relationship with both Padmé and Satine. Anakin’s love for Padmé is completely selfish and unhealthy: in AotC he can’t even stand to hear about Padmé’s childhood sweetheart, when he’s hitting on her he’s mostly talks about his own feelings and his own suffering. In TCW he’s jealous simply by Padmé being in the company of her former lover and later nearly beats Clovis to death in a fit of rage even though Padmé tries to stop him. In RotS he not even interested in saving Padmé for her own sake or the sake of her baby, it’s all about: “I can’t live without her”

Actually, the dialogue in RotS clearly shows that Anakin turns into Darth Vader because he’s greedy and want the power to stop his loved one from dying:

Sidious: "You're fulfilling your destiny, Anakin. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Dark Side of the Force."
Anakin: "I will do whatever you ask."
Sidious: "Good!"
Anakin: "Just help me save Padmé's life. I can't live without her."
Sidious: "To cheat death is the power only one has achieved, but if we work together...I know we can discover the secret."
Anakin: "I pledge myself...to your teachings."

No, embedded in the story of the PT and OT is the idea that selfishness ultimately leads to suffering for yourself and others. That allowing yourself to be ruled by fear, anger, hate, and greed leads to suffering for yourself and others. Compassion, on the other hand, is the way to live a fulfilling life.

Yeah if you take Yoda and Obi-Wan’s teachings out of context, but if you see them in the broader aspect of how the PT and OT play out, their teachings are quite reasonable – apart from Yoda’s “mourn them do not. Miss them do not.” That I do not agree with even if I understand what he was going for (and I also don’t see Yoda practice this himself). The only way SW in any way offer a “guaranteed recipe for creating lonely, angry, broken people” is if people follow Anakin’s example in the PT, which is exactly what the movies warns us against.

There is no “glorification of emotional detachment”, but a glorification of people who a not ruled by their emotions and are compassionate.

 

I agree which is why I said this earlier:

 

As far as I know, Yoda could not decide that Anakin would be Obi-Wan’s apprentice on his own, so I think it is safe to assume that the Jedi Council did discuss this matter before reaching a conclusion – especially as they initially rejected him. How they reached their decision is anyone’s guess.

That nothing is being mentioned about such in the movies does not mean it couldn’t have happened, and with the large gap of years between TPM and AotC, I’m not sure in what scene it would have been a relevant thing to mention. The fact remains that we know next to nothing about Anakin’s early years in the Temple and whatever speculations we make are made on a very weak basis.

I suppose we will just have to disagree about freeing Shmi; as much as I think she deserved better, I don’t think the Jedi should practise nepotism – not even for their chosen one who had an inclination for forming attachments. It would just have given Palpatine another weakness to exploit.

We don’t know if Obi-Wan received such or not.

If Qui-Gon could have kept Anakin away from Palpatine and make Anakin deal with his fear of loss, then I agree he would have been successful – in fact any Jedi Master would have been successful. But since we don’t know how the Qui-Gon-Anakin apprenticeship would really have paned out, so this is once again pure speculation.

I don’t agree, I don’t see Anakin being held to a different standard than any other Jedi – he is even given greater responsibility than many Jedi his age it seems.

I think they were, but they also trusted Anakin to do his duty when his mentor/friend was showing increasing signs of becoming a dictator. They also needed a spy in Palpatine’s inner circle and as far as I can see, Anakin was the only one in a position to do so. Also, Anakin is a complete hypocrite about it: he shows no qualms about effectively spying on the Jedi Council for Palpatine or that Palpatine is directly interfering with Jedi affairs, but heaven forbid he should do his duty and spy on his dictator friend (of course he stood to gain the rank of Master with Palpatine’s suggestion so perhaps that’s the reason it didn’t bother him much).

They do this in AotC as well, and it seems to indicate they trust Anakin to do his duty.

In hindsight, I think there were many things Mace should have done, but he was also in a position in which a quick response was of the essence to ensure Palpatine didn’t escape or use his power the way we see with ‘order 66’. He didn’t realise that the Jedi had already been caught in Palpatine’s trap by the end of TPM, and had been moving steadily towards checkmate since then – he obviously still believed the situation could be saved if they acted quickly. If he had known he might have done things differently.

And were I in Mace’s position, I wouldn’t have brought Anakin either. You do not want a confused person on your team if you are to take on an extremely dangerous person. I don’t see it making any difference - all Palpatine had to do was remind Anakin that only he could save Padmé, and order Anakin to help him. Anakin needed Palpatine alive and regardless of how events might play out differently, that was all that mattered to him.

Good questions, but again we are left with so little to work with it all comes down to pure speculations, but maybe his fear of loss wasn’t too evident in this period of time because neither Padmé or Shmi were threatened? I don’t know if it was common practice for the Jedi Council to read the minds of their members – if it was even possibly when they had started their training.

But the fact remains that you can’t help someone if they don’t want to be helped – a psychologist can’t help a person with anxiety if they are not willing to do what is required to get better. As long as Anakin was unwilling to do what was necessary to help himself because he didn’t like the outcome, he could not be helped.

I actually don’t remember seeing anywhere that the Jedi were not allowed contact with families at all, though I’m sure it wasn’t encouraged. What they are doing is no different than parents do: we raise our children in environments and try to impart them with important morals, values, and ideas so that when the children become adults they are capable of successfully navigating the world of which they are part – and that they will not suddenly decide to join the Taliban or something like that.

The critique I see levelled at the way Jedi lived always comes down to: they value different things than we in our culture and society does, and that makes it wrong. But I don’t see it as an inferior way of living – quite the opposite in fact. Yes, there were different expectations and standards for a Jedi: they were supposed to be compassionate, and they should not be ruled by emotions and attachments, because when they did, they became very dangerous individuals that brought great suffering upon others. I don’t see a problem with that. That is not to say, I don’t think it would be impossible for a Jedi to have healthy relationships and have families, but I do see a lot of practical problems it could cause, but that is another discussion.

I don’t recognize that line, is it from the novel or a deleted scene?

Regardless, I don’t see it as an absolute statement and yes, the Jedi are certainly not supposed to base their thinking on feelings like jealousy and pride (or hate, or fear, or anger) – we see what happens when they do and it’s not a happy outcome. With the powers they have, I think it’s quite reasonable to hold them to a higher standard because if they fall prey to certain emotions they become very dangerous for the rest of the galaxy.

I’m sorry about your brother, but I don’t think your analogy can be used here: Padmé isn’t dead, she’s not ill, she’s not in danger of dying anymore than any other person is when going about their lives in the GFFA. Now if your brother had come to you years before his wife showed any symptoms of her illness and he expressed fear of her dying because of premonitions, you don’t think you would try to make him look at the situation rationally: that while there is always a risk of dying, it is very low and not something that it should be allowed to take up too much space in his consciousness?

You judge Yoda harshly considering the very limited and vague information he has to work with – all he knows is Anakin has premonitions about a loved one suffering and dying. With a future that is “always in motion” what exactly was he supposed to say that could in any way appease Anakin (who was truly only interested in finding a way to put a stopper to death)?

An advice will only ever be as good as the basis on which it is given.

I don’t see any scolding – why would they? Anakin is not a member of the Order and thus not their responsibility. I see Yoda get firm after Anakin reproach them for asking about his feelings, but there is no scolding, rather Yoda sounds almost sad or regretful, when he says: “I sense much fear in you”

We know from TPM that the Jedi can sense much fear in Anakin – fear directly linked to loosing his mother. The fact that this fear of loss is still present in Anakin many years later and that he can’t act rationally when faced with that fear, supports that there is a deeper rooted problem.

I don’t think it was presented as happy, even if it was not as harsh as it could be. Children are actually quite quick to adjust to different situations – far better than most adults – but that doesn’t mean they are not deeply affected by it, and the way they handle these new challenges are also dependent on how their parents reacts. Shmi did very well, but it doesn’t change the fact that there is nothing happy about being a slave, and we are shown quite clearly the uncertain future Anakin and Shmi face every day: they might not have to fear violence, starvation, or neglect while belonging to Watto, but that could change at every moment if he lost one or both of them in a bet, and he did force a child to partake in races that could kill him.

No, he wouldn’t – he would be far away from Palpatine for one, and second he could, within reason, live his life as he liked. Should Shmi die, however, I don’t think he would handle it very well, but at least he would not have the same skills and powers at his disposal like he did in AotC.

Maybe Obi-Wan should, but I don’t fault him for having other concerns at the time considering the responsibility he was now shouldering. The sad thing is that Lucas seems to completely forget about Shmi until she is directly relevant to the plot – I mean wouldn’t it also have been possible for Shmi to send a message to Anakin the moment she was freed?

We don’t really know how the system worked, but if the parents could be compensated for giving up their child to the Jedi, then the Jedi would be obligated to compensate Shmi as well and there is no evidence of such transaction. I personally don’t think compensation was involved, and, IMO, when parents gave up their child to the Jedi, it should be treated very much as a blood and organ donation in my country where you don’t get paid: it must be a good and selfless act. If money are involved how can the Jedi be certain that the parents aren’t simply doing it because they are desperate (thus making it little more than slavery)?

As soon as compensation is involved in such matters, then living beings are reduced to nothing more than objects to be bargained with, and no living being should ever be reduced to nothing but the means to an end, but rather always be considered an end by ourselves.

But it is an ethical dilemma with not easy answer.

I think that parents giving up their children to the Jedi worked more or less the same way as it does in Asia with the Buddhist monks.

That may be, but being the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic, the Jedi were heavily affected by the politics decided in the Senate. The Orders ability to operate and help people was completely dependent on the money and resourced given to them by the Senate (and possibly private donations). The Jedi couldn’t simply do whatever they wanted.

And yes, IMO there is a world of difference between ‘can’t’ and ‘won’t’.

Me neither, but the main difference is, that in the first instance he takes advantage of a situation – why not try and hit two birds with one stone? The other he goes out of his way to help Shmi simply because she’s Anakin’s mother. What about Kitster or another slave who was in far worse position than Shmi?

That’s an easy position to take, but try asking the WHO how much they will be able to help people in need if more countries withdraw their financial support and if countries stops all cooperation with them because they think they have overstepped their bounds? Ask Doctors Without Borders how many people they will be able to help if they no longer receive donations?

Yes, a stone would have dropped from Anakin’s heart, but Anakin has shown quite clearly that prefers to cling to his attachments rather than let them go. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

Except for Anakin.

And no child in the western world ever asked to be born or raised in our culture and with the values instilled in them by their parents, but they don’t have much choice in the matter either until they come of age. It’s the same with the Jedi. Even though many think the Jedi isolated themselves in their Temple this is not true: they were sent on missions all over the galaxy and encountered different points of views, different morals, different ways of life, different cultures – they did not live in a vacuum (I would even say that their duties required for them to know more about these subjects than what most people know about the different cultures in our world). And at any point in time were they free to seek another life if they so wished.

What exactly is so horrible about being raised to be a Jedi? Could a Jedi not live a fulfilling life? Did the vast majority of the Jedi not grow up to become “good persons”, fully capable of functioning in various social and cultural environment? Why should they change something that worked simply to cater to one person's needs?

 

I don't think it's right to lump the mentally ill as some pool of child killers. How many people legitimately suffer from PTSD whether it be from combat, or from abuse and trauma that happened to them as children or in abusive relationships? Does that mean they are automatically going to go out and kill children? No. It doesn't.

There are day care workers who kill babies because they won't stop crying. Does that mean they are mentally ill? No it means they have no patience, and definitely lack empathy. There are horrible people who abuse their own children, or children with handicaps. Does that mean they are mentally ill? Not necessarily, they could be absolutely just self centered and cruel.

I was diagnosed with PTSD from childhood trauma. I didn't receive any therapy or help as a kid while bad **** happened to me. I wasn't taught how to cope with the situation and developed my own skills to try and protect myself. I suffer from depression and anxiety because of it. I know right from wrong. I have a daughter of my own and would never hurt someone else's child. PTSD/mental illness doesn't make one an automatic baby killer.

Anakin had emotional scars, and trauma naturally from his life as a slave. A kid knowing he had a chip in his body that could be used to blow him up?. That's got to mess with a 9 year old in ways no one could imagine. The emotional loss of his mother, the pending loss of the next person he loved was not something he was prepared to handle in a good way. He knew right and wrong but he weighed the entire Jedi order against Padme's life. Palps led him to believe that killing all the Jedi was a road on the path to gaining the power he wanted to save Padme. Anakin didn't see Palps was playing him and selfishly chose what he felt he couldn't live without. I do not ever think George Lucas wrote this story intending for people to either excuse Anakin with a modern day diagnosis or blame him with a modern day diagnosis. Lucas was pretty clear on the moral lesson he wanted to tell.

 

Hardly anyone in those films managed to handle loss or the fear of loss properly. At least I don't think they did. Including members of the Jedi Council like Yoda and Mace Windu. Enforcing a rule that you cannot have emotional attachments does not really help. Learning to detach oneself from attachments or let go is a life spanning lesson and very few people managed to learn it in the end.

I'm sure Anakin had his emotional issues. But I feel that most of the characters in the entire franchise did. Anakin's emotional buttons were pushed at the right time to lead him to embrace evil. The same could have easily happened to all of the other characters.

 

The fact remains, Anakin was given to a Jedi that had never trained anyone before.
And not only was Anakin the most important Jedi alive, he also had a lot more baggage and issues that any other Jedi.

I don't see it as nepotism to return a favor.
Also, Palpatine has way more ammunition to use if the Jedi don't help Shmi.
He could paint them as uncaring, dogmatic, refusing to help the little people and just leaving people to suffer in slavery.
Plus Anakin would be very grateful if they did help his mother.

Since he is told not to mourn or miss people, when Jedi do have funerals and seem to be sad when someone they knows dies. Then that is an example of different standards.

Anakin is clearly not thinking straight, he is quick to side with Palpatine and far less so with the Jedi.
Regardless, the situation needed a bit more tact and insight, which the Jedi council lacked.

In RotS Mace clearly says that he does not trust Anakin.
And later, after Anakin has told him about Palpatine, he still does not trust him.
Only if what Anakin said is true would he do so.

Escape?
Had Mace asked a few more questions then he would know that Palpatine just told Anakin who he is and then let him leave. Knowing that Anakin would go to the Jedi.
So "Escape is not his plan".

And were I in Mace’s position, I wouldn’t have brought Anakin either. You do not want a confused person on your team if you are to take on an extremely dangerous person. I don’t see it making any difference - all Palpatine had to do was remind Anakin that only he could save Padmé, and order Anakin to help him. Anakin needed Palpatine alive and regardless of how events might play out differently, that was all that mattered to him.

Since Anakin is very much a special case, if they fall back on common practice then it shows that the Jedi don't see the need for something out of the ordinary.
We know they could do it and they have a motive to do it.
So either they do and notice that Anakin isn't learning or dealing with his fear of loss.
Which should be a sign that something is wrong.
Or they do and somehow don't notice, which makes little sense given how open Anakin is with his feelings.
Or they don't see the need.

If the Jedi know that Anakin or any Jedi isn't learning, isn't following their rules. Then they need to act.
Either put extra effort in or kick the person out of the order.
Doing nothing or hope that the problem just goes away is not taking responsibility.

From what I have seen and read, the no contact thing is meant to be permanent.
No contact is allowed.
And the reason why is simple, attachment is bad and so to avoid that, the children are separated from their parents at a very young age.
Preferably before any attachment is formed,
Ideally, the Jedi should have no memory of their parents.
So why would any further contact be allowed?
It would run counter to the Jedi goal of not having any attachments or feelings towards their parents.
The children are separated and never see their parents again.
That seemed to be the norm.

The critique I see levelled at the way Jedi lived always comes down to: they value different things than we in our culture and society does, and that makes it wrong. But I don’t see it as an inferior way of living – quite the opposite in fact. Yes, there were different expectations and standards for a Jedi: they were supposed to be compassionate, and they should not be ruled by emotions and attachments, because when they did, they became very dangerous individuals that brought great suffering upon others. I don’t see a problem with that. That is not to say, I don’t think it would be impossible for a Jedi to have healthy relationships and have families, but I do see a lot of practical problems it could cause, but that is another discussion.

The issue is, some emotions are dangerous for Jedi. No argument there.
Now you can either train them to deal with those emotions or do your best to make sure those emotions never arise.
I think the Jedi at times do the second option.
They ban contact with parents, siblings. Children are taken in at a young age, to limit any attachment.
Romantic love is forbidden, having a wife, husband or children.
Yoda tells Anakin not to mourn, and as odd as that line is, it is still evidence of the Jedi banning emotions.

Except you said;

So you argued that Yoda's words were like a priest offering consolation AFTER someone has died.
So my example is 100% accurate.
So Yoda's words are, to me, a cold and uncaring thing to say to someone that has suffered a terrible loss.

As to the rest, see below.

Giving advice based on poor or insufficient information can be worse than giving no advice at all.
So what Yoda should have done is ask for more information, "I need to know more if I am to help you."

Also, Anakin had bad dreams/nightmares about his mother. He tried to be a good jedi and ignored them.
Obi-Wan offered no help beyond "Dreams pass in time." Not a mention of "Hey maybe we can try to contact your mother and see if she is alright." or even considering the idea that something has happened to her and that is why Anakin has these dreams/visions. Obi-Wan knows the Force is very real and can give visions to people.
But things got so bad that Anakin could ignore it no longer and so he went but it was too late and his mother died, in horrible circumstances.

Now Anakin gets these dreams again. So to him, he has plenty of reason to think that something could happen and Padme will die. Like his mother died.
And with his mother, had he gone sooner, he might have been able to save her life.

Did Yoda know about the dreams about his mother?
No reason to assume he could not have known. Obi-Wan knew of them. Obi-Wan knew that Anakin went to Tatooine. Yoda knew that Anakin was in terrible pain. So while I think it is clear that the Jedi don't know about the murder of all the Sand People, the rest they could know about.

So here Yoda has a situation where a person got visions that turned out to actually happen. And now they get more visions.
This situation needed more than cold and standard dogma.

One wonders if Anakin has said that his dreams were about all the Jedi being killed. Would Yoda still be so unconcerned and offer the same, cold advice.

Not their responsibility?
A Jedi, a member of their order, took him away from his home and brought him here.
Anakin did have a say yes but he didn't come here on his own.
What would become of Anakin if he was turned away?
Sent back to Tatooine?
Could he go himself? He has no money nor knows much about where he is.

Sure they didn't order Qui-Gon to do this but to say they have no responsibility, that I don't agree with.

They do this, children are taken from their parents and brought to the Jedi.
That makes those children the responsibility of the Jedi.

It became a deeply rooted problem because Anakin did not deal with this fear of loss and instead the fear grew and festered in his mind.
Anakin is responsible sure but I just think that outside factors played a part and the Jedi are not totally blameless in this.

I think it was presented as happy. Anakin had a lot of free time, do things he wanted to do, he loved racing, he didn't mind being forced to. It bothered his mother, not so much him.
Again Lucas wanted to it to be child friendly and so the slavery angle came across as "toothless."

He would likely be sad and mourn like most people. If Shmi was killed in front of him, I would expect him to get angry, most people would be.

I totally agree that Lucas just forgot about it. But I think this oversight reflects poorly on the Jedi and on Padme.
As for Obi-Wan, making a call to Padme would take a few hours at most.
Hardly beyond him.

If a person get mugged and some homeless guy comes and helps and the robbers run away.
If this person buys the guy a pizza because he hasn't eaten in a few days, would that be wrong?
Would it be unfair to just buy this guy a pizza and not all the other homeless people?

I have come across the defense of "If you can't help everyone then you should help no one." when it comes to the PT Jedi.

I don't agree with it and I hope the Jedi don't either.
Most often you can't help everyone at once but that does not mean people don't try to help.

Shmi offered help to a Jedi with no thought of reward. Doing a favor back is just simple gratitude.
As for the other slaves, who says that Padme or the Jedi should just ignore them?
Now they know it is going on, bring it up to the senate, raise awareness, there are more options than "Don't lift a finger to help."

If the Jedi think like this, "Oh we can't help because that would be too much effort or nepotism or it might be bad PR."
Then, to me, this is the thinking of people that look for reasons NOT to help.

Quite a few children in our world grow up to be different than their parents, not all follow in their parents footsteps.

At what age would a Jedi pupil begin to go out in the galaxy? 15?
So 10+ years in a controlled environment with no contact with parents.
And free to leave?
The Jedi are taken in when they are very young, a few years old at most.
So being a Jedi is their whole life. They likely don't even remember their parents or the life they had before.
So how easy is it to turn your back on that?
And what could they do, where could they go? They have no home anymore. No family.

Who said anything about it being horrible?
You asked;

My answer to this is that they were not really given a choice, they have been trained most of their lives to do this. Being a Jedi is all they know. The Jedi are a very old institution. So why would they question it?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Indeed. And he took a huge plunge, which he then doubled down on once he reached a point of no return.

 

i don't consider him mentally ill, least not until he turned to the dark side. He commited evil acts. i suppose you could say he became delusional after that, idk.
when he killed the Tusken's that was rage after his mother died from being kidnapped and tortued. He doesn't seem mentally ill as ROTS begins. He's put himself in a situation where he's hiding his marriage and can't really ask for help openly. Palpatine then preys on that. So no, i don't see that he just descended on his own for no reason.

 

But it is also a fact that Obi-Wan did his job of training an apprentice to knighthood, so he succeeded in his task. I would say the problem is with those who made the decision that Anakin was ready to be knighted, and I always did wonder how he could have been considered knight-material – I can’t remember if there is any official explanation for this..?

Qui-Gon was on a mission for Naboo, and the favour Anakin and Shmi did was to Naboo.

But couldn’t Palpatine do that anyway? He could point out that the Jedi only helped one slave, who happened to be related to one of their members, but ignored all the rest – some who were undoubtedly suffering far more than Shmi. He could also paint them as “uncaring, dogmatic, refusing to help the little people” who were suffering in the Republic while being busy helping the blood relatives of their members outside their jurisdiction.

Not unless you can prove such advice was never given to any other Jedi.

They should certainly have listened to Obi-Wan concerning this matter, but I also recognize that the position they were in did not offer much manoeuvrability, and Anakin was the only one in a position to gain the information they needed.

But Mace, or Yoda for that matter, does not rule the Council. The Council makes decisions by vote of majority judging by Yoda’s statement from TPM about not personally agreeing about Anakin being trained.

And Mace was right not to trust Anakin. Why the majority of the Council did is what puzzles me.

We know "Escape is not his plan", but the fact that he let Anakin leave isn’t a reason for why he wouldn’t try and make his escape – he had plenty of time to do so if he wanted to.

All Mace knew was that he had sensed a plot to destroy the Jedi, and that their ancient enemy had jut been revealed to be the most powerful man in the Republic, but how exactly Palpatine intended to go about his plan was not known.

But yes, I also think he was too quick to jump the gun, but I also understand why he did as he did in the situation he was in.

Again, we have no information about what they did and didn’t do concerning Anakin. As I said, it boggles my mind how anyone could think RotS-Anakin was considered knight-material (but then again, I as a viewer, have far more information concerning Anakin than the Jedi do), and I’m not sure he would have been had there not been extraordinary circumstances like a full scale war. So did he trick the Jedi into thinking he was dealing with his feeling? Did the Jedi know about him failing to deal with them but let it slide because they thought he would eventually learn to do so in time or didn’t they care?

We don’t know, we haven’t been shown how the Council reached their decisions regarding Anakin.

We don’t know if they put in some extra effort. We only know that Anakin managed to fulfil some unspecified requirements for being knighted so he must have been able to convince them that he had learned and was following the rules – at times bending them but never beyond breaking point.

But obviously not all Jedi were taken at birth else the Council would not have a protocol for testing someone like Anakin, which they did. I agree that from the Jedi point of view, ideally there should be no further contact and that this was the norm, but I can certainly think of situations in which it might be unavoidable or preferable, so again I would be hesitant to conclude that no contact was allowed ever.

But that is just the thing, the Jedi could never make sure certain emotions didn’t arise unless they altered the brains of their members either surgically or chemically. Even living their entire life in the Temple could not ensure that no one developed attachments, but they were not allowed to grow and fester. There is nothing to indicate romantic love was forbidden – Obi-Wan even confirms as much in TCW. Romantic love is a complicated interaction of hormones, neurotransmitters and specific part of our brain, tied to our biological urge to reproduce and was only natural to occur. The difference is that these things were not encouraged as they would have outside the Temple, and that a Jedi shouldn’t act on them.

I think you very well know the intended meaning of what I said, but I’ll rephrase then, if you insist:
“they seem more like the consolation a priest would offer to someone who is afraid of their dear ones dying: “don’t be sad he/she will be in a better place”

No it is not: Anakin is not there because he has suffered a terrible loss but because he is afraid he’ll suffer one. Yoda’s advice is a tool Anakin can use to help deal with his fears – it is completely off the mark in regards to Anakin, I agree – but that is what it is.

I’m sorry, but your example is not compatible to the situation here: Padmé isn’t dead or even in danger of dying. Anakin simply fears that she will.

And still, there is nothing in Yoda’s words to indicate that he is not allowed to grieve or mourn should he decide to do so.

I can be, but based on what Anakin tells him he does have sufficient information to understand the essential problem and offer a general advice – and why should he have any reason to think that Anakin is holding back crucial information, especially when it is Anakin who actively seeks out his help?

What else could Obi-Wan say considering that Anakin himself thought they were dreams at that point in time? Did Anakin ask if he could contact his mother and was denied? No.

Obi-Wan also knows that the future is always in motion, and as long as Anakin himself believes they are dreams how is he supposed to support beyond that?

The Jedi are not responsible for what happened to Shmi.

The difference of course being that he was having dreams of Shmi while these things was happening to her, that he was not in close company with her and could not know her condition, and that Shmi lived on a dangerous planet with inferior medical technology compared to what could be found in the Republic.

Your entire argument here is made on the assumption that Yoda knew about Anakin’s dreams in AotC, but there is nothing in the movies to support this – the scene of RotS even heavily indicates that this was the first time Anakin had not gone to Yoda with premonitions.

There are plenty of reasons why Yoda should not know about Anakin’s dreams of his mother: the dreams might not have started until after Anakin and Obi-Wan left on their mission - or perhaps the most simple of all: Anakin saw no reason to bother Yoda with something he himself believed to be dreams.

I could imagine he would have received the same advice as Luke: “Always in motion is the future”. Mace sensed a plot to destroy the Jedi and that didn’t make them go into overdrive.

There is nothing cold about advising someone who fears the death of their dear ones exclusively on “bad feelings” to deal with that fear in a rational way and not allow it to consume them.

I meant in the sense that since Anakin is not a member of their order it is thus not their responsibility to correct his behaviour even if it doesn’t befit a Jedi.

Who knows what would have happened to Anakin had they decided to hold to their initial decision? I don’t believe he is the first child to be denied entry into the Order, and what they did with those probably depended on the situation, but I think in most cases they would return the child to their relatives. When that was not possible their where many possibilities: foster care, orphanage, etc. Or perhaps the Jedi Order had some kind of establishment that took care of these children.

With Anakin’s potential, and knowing there was a Sith out there looking for a new apprentice, I think they would have found a solution where they could keep a close eye on him, and the possibilities of doing that in practise are many.

Exactly, but Anakin knows what he needs to do to deal with it, but chooses not to. Anakin is also shown to know the difference between right and wrong, and he makes a conscious decision to do wrong for his own sake. That is on Anakin alone.

The children in even the worst refugee camps have free time and can do things they want to do, that is no indication that they are living in a healthy environment.

True, Anakin takes full advantage of having a lenient owner but he is still nothing more than an object that can be sold or killed at any moment, and he certainly is bothered when Padmé asks if he’s a slave. And please, children at the age of nine can be fearless and are not capable of making decisions regarding their own safety – especially when there is something they want or find pleasurable – that is why they need adults to keep them safe.

Well maybe he did. Maybe they did try and contact Shmi but Watto simply refused them. We don’t know. From what I see from Anakin’s character, if there is something he truly wants then he doesn’t care about breaking the rules, so if he had really wanted to contact Shmi, he would have found a way to do so.

But there is always a difference to how you can behave as a private person and as a person representing an organisation and using means that are not your own.

And they do, Qui-Gon helps as much as he is able in the situation but makes no promises grant Shmi a reward for what she did (we don’t even know to what extend Qui-Gon would have attempted to free them in the first place if Anakin had not been strong in the Force).

The Jedi are not the Red Cross of the GFFA. They are the guardians of the peace and justice in the Republic.

Shmi is not doing the Jedi a favour – everything that has to do with obtaining a new hyperdrive is to help the Naboo – she is doing Padmé a favour. Qui-Gon is acting on their behalf.

Maybe they did raise awareness about such things in the Senate, but sometimes solutions aren’t always as obvious as people would like to think and the consequences could be far more severe than maintaining the status quo – I don’t think there is a country in the western world that is not aware of the atrocities happening in North Korea and the Middle East, but we don’t really lift a finger to help them either.

No, but if the actions resulted in consequences that severely restricted the extend to which they could operate in other places in the galaxy, then it is not something they could simply ignore.

I never said they didn’t, but it doesn’t change that fact that they grow up in a certain culture and society, and that their life, morals, and opinions are very much shaped by that. Most who grow up in the western world and are instilled with western morals and values could never imagine themselves giving it all up and living the rest of their life as a muslim farmer in Afghanistan. Is that wrong?

Which is quite similar to the kind of indoctrination that happens to all children, and they seem to have the exact same options and limitations as children in our world have. The children raised as Jedi show absolutely no sign that they live in complete isolation with no outside input or awareness of the world outside the Temple. They are shown to become competent, normal functioning adults capable of social interactions.

There is nothing easy about turning your back to the life you know no matter the circumstances of which you have been raised. It is always frightening leaving behind what is known and offers safety for the “unknown”.

Back to their parents? To other relatives? An orphanage? Foster care? Start a family of their own if they are old enough? Obi-Wan was willing to leave the Jedi for the woman he had fallen in love with, and I doubt he was the only one prepared to do so.

No one did, but that always seems to be what is implied in these kinds of discussions.

No children are given the choice of how they are being raised. You can compare being raised as a Jedi to the children whose parents raise them with the specific goal of them becoming athletes, musicians, etc.: they too grow up in a special environment in which they must sacrifice things other children take for granted. They don’t really don’t know what is it like to live a life without their sport or art either – and when they get older many chose to continue to pursue the careers the are gifted at. Is that wrong?

They would question it because they do not live in a bobble, because at some point they do reach an age in which they can critically examine what they are learning and their environment, and they are capable of making the same choices as any other human beings are once we come of age – being raised as a Jedi even offers them education and skill sets that ensures they could do very well for themselves should they fall in love and decide they wanted to start their own family.

 

Why do people use the terms "dark" and "light" to discuss morality? They never use the terms "good" and "evil" anymore. Why are people addicted to using color metaphors, when it is unnecessary?

Of course, their competence and normal interactions can quickly disappear given the situation and their emotional buttons being pushed. This can happen to anyone, regardless of how normal or functioning he or she seems.

Despite having Qui-Gon as his Jedi master, Obi-Wan had a viewpoint that reeked of absolutism. And I don't think 19 years on Tattooine and being trained again by Qui-Gon's ghost had not completely cured him of this kind of mentality . . . even when he became a Force ghost. Obi-Wan was the epitome of a traditionalist to me, which would account for his clashes with not only Anakin, but also Qui-Gon. As for Yoda, he seemed to flip flop to me.. Sometimes, he came off as flexible and sometimes as rigid. He is the only major Jedi character who never believed in the idea of the Chosen One or of Anakin being just that.

 

Virtually all children are raised in the ruling ideology of their society. For a person to assert that a Jedi upbringing is particularly strange in this regard only shows that they don't even realize that the same thing happened to them.

Anakin was raised for the first part of his life as a non-Jedi, and then after that as a Jedi. That's where the problem arose. He had conflicting sets of values, and he had a hard time reconciling them. This likely wouldn't have been a problem if he had been trained from a younger age.

 

We’re told as much in EP1 that Anakin is hyper-empathetic. Combine that now with issues involving his mother (both pre and post death), and having to wrestle with being called “the Chosen One” as a child - and all the burdens that come with that - and IMHO that’s all you need to create someone of Anakin’s ilk.

 

Holy ****. This post needs to be stickied. Great analysis!