ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

This is Rey

Spoiler

Perfectly sums up the problem. She was everything and didn't need anyone which would be totally fine in a Clint Eastwood spagetti western where Clint shows up, helps everyone but doesn't need help himself, and then rides off into the sunset. Or in something like Superman. But in ST, they wanted some things that would require that Rey gave up certain level of independence and power in order to be a part of a team yet didn't want her to be less independent and powerful than her 100% capacity. The point of a team, be it a duo, trio or more, is that group is more efficient/powerful/effective/stronger/better together than members would be individually. However, Rey was already top level and didn't need a team of any kind to boost her performance. But she was put in 2 different ones even though she was not a team player character. So one team was the dyad with Kylo that got dismantled quickly in order to have Rey defeat Sheev on her own (don't be fooled by the Jedi voices that she got, she's just, she's just Rey from the block). The other was the trio where her friends served as a cheerleading squad whenever Rey did something amazing. In short, neither team was needed if Rey was going to be One Woman Army which she was. That's why her character doesn't work. if they gave up on teaming her up with characters who either didn't measure up (Finn, Poe, etc) or who did but had to be removed so that she could have a Yass Queen Slay moment (Kylo-Ben), she would make sense as an overpowered entity coming in terms with that fact. But they tried things that contradicted each other and created a non-character.

 

Wow! Terrific, well-written, well-thought out post! It deserved far more than a “like”. I don’t have anything to add, but I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to formulate, write, and share this post!

 

Adam Driver was brillant. Kylo Ren is the true protagonist of the ST, a) a protagonist changes throughout the story.

Ben’s evolution is epic,
I. He begins as Faceless Vader 2.0.
II. Becomes Anarchial Supreme Commander
III. Transforms back into Ben Solo, finally giving into the “call of the Light.”

His insecurity and wrestless soul mirrored Anakin as Jedi Padawan to Jedi Knight, “I want more and I know I shouldn’t” but he wasn’t Vader who was dogmatic, and obeyed his master in all things until it became a choice between his son and servitude.

Honestly, I thought Kylo Ren’s TLJ path of “letting it all die, the Sith and the Jedi” a terrifying villian in the making. I saw Kylo becoming a Wound in the Force like Darth Nihilus, and possibly the Sith’ari, “The Sith'ari will be free of limits.
The Sith'ari will lead the Sith and destroy them.
The Sith'ari will raise the Sith from death and make them stronger than before.” (Book of Sith).
The Anarchist side of Kylo was a truly terrifying prospect, that he’d submit to no code, Sith or Jedi, only his reckless passion and pain.

I suspected that Abrams would choose the redemptive route for Ben. I wish Ben would have lived, that way the Skywalker-Solo line and Palpatine line would mix in his and Rey’s children. Sigh, that had promise for major shakings in the galaxy...

 

On paper but in execution I don't think it translates.

 

His redemption arch in TRoS was rushed. We almost needed another movie between TLJ and TROS that explored thd anarchial side of him that jjyat disappears when he meets Palaptine on Exogel.,

 

Kylo Ren wasn't anarchial: he wanted to wipe out his past and everything connected to it for personal reasons, yes, but he also wanted to replace it with his own order.

"It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels… Let it all die. Rey, I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy." - Kylo Ren (The Last Jedi)

Furthermore, the First Order's ideology is the opposite of anarchy and according to Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker: The Visual Dictionary, his reign as Supreme Leader was marked by a fierce crackdown on any star system exhibiting signs of independence or defiance.

Kylo Ren wanted a totalitarian dictatorship with himself in charge: control, not chaos and choice.

I'd also argue that he was intended to be a subversion of the idea of a Faceless Vader 2.0.

 

If Rey had joined Kylo in His “let it all die,” I think the Frist Order would have become something quite different.

I say anarchial, in that Kylo wanted traditional teachings of the Jedi and the Sith to end, and to create something new. He was not bound by any code of Master and Apprentice. Had he not submitted to Palpatine (which was bizarre, he had laready destroyed his father Han and his dark side mentor Snoke) I think Kylo would have reigned chaotically, like a wild card, following his whims and not the teachings he had learned from Luke or Snoke.

There was potential for Kylo and Rey to recreate the Jed’aii Order, Bendu or Balance of using both sides of the Force, but this died when Rey rejected Kylo’s offer in Snoke’s Throne Room.

 

That may have been what RJ was going for but all of those ideas don’t come through on any of the films and Disney decided to throw that concept of it was one in the trash bin

 

I think Tey joining Kylo wpukd have fit well in her vision of her sitting on a dark throne in TROS. I had half expected Kylo to become Jedi Prodigal and Rey to fall to the Dark Side, giving us the first movie canon Dark Lady of the Sith. Alas, Abram played it safe in TROS.

 

It is a shame, Kylo’s choatic path was intriguing, a person with the dark side who subtmits to no one and nothing, a chance to see Anakin’s dark dream come true, “I can overthrow him (Palpatine), and we can rule the galaxy, make things the way we want to be.” (ROTS).

 

I doubt it. In that very scene, Kylo Ren demonstrates his mindset that his way the only correct one and that he won't hear any other opinion including from Rey. It's very telling that when Rey asks him not to destroy the Resistance, he goes on a tangent that culminates in him tearing her down:

"You have no place in this story. You're nobody. You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me."

His response to Rey begging him ("Please, don't do this, Ben. Don't go this way.") is to say that she is worthless in every way without him and that he is the only thing that validates her as a person. He tries verbally browbeat her into agreeing with him by using emotional abuse. That's how he tries to sway her opinion.

That doesn't paint a future where Rey is allowed enough influence to affect the First Order, let alone change it for the better. There's nothing that shows that Kylo Ren values Rey's thoughts and feelings unless they align with his own.

It died when Kylo Ren refused to halt his plans to become the dictator of a galaxy-spanning totalitarian regime and to massacre the Resistance.

According to the Star Wars: The Last Jedi: Expanded Edition, neither fear nor anger influenced his decision; he had chosen to continue down the dark path with a deep resolve (Wookiepedia)

The only way that it might have happened, and that's a mighty big might considering Kylo Ren's character, it would have required for Rey to consider it acceptable for him to wipe out everybody that she cares about.

It also wouldn't have been a recreated Jed'aii Order or a Balance of both sides of the force since Kylo Ren shunned not just the Jedi, but the light, as well. It would have been a darkside order since it would have been run by someone who is not just a darksider, but also the dictator of a very evil regme. If the light existed as a part of that order, it would have been in a very minor way or as a twisted version of itself.

 

I agree, Dark Rey would have added depth to her character. You see in her eyes as she shoots Stormtroopers with her blaster in TFA a lingering anger, you see it again on Starkiller base in her duel with Kylo.

If Ben had lived, his redemption would have probably been to hide out on Canto Bight, where like Luke on Achch-To, he would reluctantly train Broom Boy (TLJ). I picture Kylo being like Ulic Qel-Droma in exile on Rhen Var.

 

I agree and disagree.

You have a valid point that Kylo detests the Light because in his mind, he sees Luke standing over him with a green saber ignited.

On the other hand, Kylo does reform in TROS and returns to the Light. If we follow TROS and TLJ merged (if both versions of Kylo/Ben were one), Kylo might have been open to Bendu, balancing The Light and Dark Sides.

 

One of the problems that I have with the hypothetical idea of post-TROS Ben Solo teaching the next generations of force-users: he was leader of an evil regime - he ordered the slaughter of at least two villages. Why would anyone allow him near children? Unless the entire galaxy swallowed instant-forgive, the new Order would have to employ a mass amount of (deeply amoral and unethical) deception about his identity to get away with him teaching.

Not to mention the very real possibility that when the school opens and receives its first younglings, some, if not all of them, are going to be children who suffered because of him or were even orphaned by him. Gotta be awkward when you have to delay orientation because one of your teachers caused half of the student body to experience flashbacks of their parents getting murdered.

I think that was even the plot of a Resistance episode: he wiped out a village and sent his forces to hunt down two children who survived (because one of them is a force sensitive girl?)

 

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

 

Well, my perspective differs. Ben is strong in the Force, and there is not any one left to teach the ways of the Force other than Rey (if we argue Dark Rey is her fate then its up to Ben).

Non-canon, Revan slaughtered many as Darth Revan but became Jedi Prodigal and saved the galaxy. Ben ressurected Rey, and had she healed him, he’d be responsible for saving the one who conquered the Emperor and saved the galaxy. If Rey had gone dark, I see Ben as her rival, and the only one who can stop the Empress, making him responsible to pull a Wolverine and kill his beloved.

 

I meant if the Anarchial Kylo who hates tradition was merged with Ben Redeemed, you’d get a Bendu possibility. But Abrams decided to rewrite the story, and basically make TLJ storylines obsolete.

 

Living on a party planet, getting to train kids isn`t much in the way of atonement and karma. At least make it living on a desolate rock, all alone and getting space lepracy or something.

 

But I wanted to see Ben drinking and acting like Rooster Cogburn (True Grit remake) as he tries to avoid teaching Broom Boy.

 

I agree Kylo / Ben are one, although we see cognitive dissonance, he keeps resisting “The Call to the Light,” until finally he doesn’t.

I would never see Ben starting a Jedi Academy, it would be one on one with Broom Boy or some other Force Sensitive. He’d train the person and move on.

Ben woukd be Disney’s canonical Ulic Qel-Droma, it would even be neat if Force Severance was used on him and he’d have to teach having been seperated from the Force permantley like Ulic.