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ST Rey Skywalker/Daisy Ridley Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    When all is said and done, all that Rey turned out to be was a female version of Luke.
    Raised on a harsh desert world.
    Rescues a droid which starts her on an adventure
    Turns out to have a powerful affinity for the Force
    Descended from a terrifyingly bad villain

    But where Luke had to suffer and work hard for everything he achieved, where we watched Luke gradually mature over time to a resilient young man from callow youth, where we watched him struggle with the dark and finally overcome it....Rey had everything handed to her on a plate. Example: it wasn't until ROTJ that Luke finally leaned to use a Jedi mind trick. Rey mastered it in the first film with zero training.
    I also notice that Rey is so 'awesome' that in TROS she revives a dying Kylo Ren without breaking a sweat....but at the end of the film Kylo revives a dying Rey ( DLF later confirmed she wasn't dead because her body didn't disappear) and it kills him.

    I'm sorry because I really liked the character at first but Abrams obviously had a huge crush on her to the extent he turned her into uber Force woman - and it is completely impossible to relate to someone who is so incredibly perfect.
     
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  2. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 14, 2000
    @sian1965 I think it far more likely that the studio wanted its first live-action SW “Disney princess” (not literally but serving that purpose merch-wise) to be as vanilla and inoffensive as possible.
     
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Yup... that's about the size of it.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 21, 2012
    The thing is, is that typically the antagonist mirrors the protagonist is some way. The journeys reflect one another. By learning more about one of them, we should have gained greater understanding of the other.

    That didn't happen. They tried to cheat at it and say they were a dyad, or how Luke has seen Rey's power before (in Ben). But none of that really works on a character/personality level. Nothing about Rey's supposed journey makes you think she's going to become like Kylo, or follow in his steps – much like you could have wondered about Luke becoming Vader because they were very much alike. (beside just being father and son). We also don't know why Ben fell to the dark side. There's got to be a reason why he hates them - and he does - despite trying to convince Rey that he doesn't. He thinks they make him weak for some reason. Why? We don't know. There's also some EU business about perhaps blaming his parents a bit too much, and that's not necessary or explanatory either.

    To fix this they could have done something like:

    Ben wasn't born a bad kid. He tagged along with his loving, well-intentioned, but busy working parents, from base to base, planet to planet, never really having a home, and would often get into trouble pulling pranks or doing whatever it took to get their attention. He also mastered the art of using his Skywalker name to get out that trouble too. Ben was a bit of a cynic, like his old man. But even as a kid, he was also a natural leader like his mom. Many times the other kids on base would end up following him on whatever adventures he decided to have. For a long time, Leia tried to raise him to take her spot one day. She didn't really want him following in Luke's steps, or her father's. She thought Ben might lead the Republic one day. That was her dream for him. But soon she realized Ben was force sensitive, and to give him the guidance they thought he needed, they sent him to his Uncle to focus his powers and become trained as a Jedi. Ben was very much the opposite of the hopeful, idealistic Luke. They butted heads often. And Luke's teachings were constantly tested by his head-strong nephew - who didn't see eye to eye on the patient way Luke was rebuilding the Jedi Order. But being trained as a Jedi didn't help Ben either, and he grew more resentful of his parents. He didn't see them trying to help, he just saw them ditching him. That resentment, that fear of not being loved, grew into a deep seated anger, and soon Ben was on a darker path. In time, Ben began to believe that instead of leading the Republic, he'd end up leading the Jedi. But something was holding him back. He wasn't as strong as he knew he could be. Luke knew that his resentments were the issue, but instead of looking inward and letting go, Ben hung on to that anger. And then one day he got into a big fight with Luke, and half the academy burned to the ground. He left with about 6 other students, who followed him out the door. Ben then adopts the name Kylo Ren, ditches his Skywalker/Solo heritage forever, believes that family just makes you weak in this world, and he doesn't want to be weak or a "Skywalker" anymore.

    Rey wasn't born a bad kid, but after being ditched by her parents on Jakku, she's lived a tough life. She's cynical and resents her parents for leaving her there. She's a bit more ruthless, and selfish even. She's had to be just to survive here. She doesn't have family or loved ones here, as that kind of stuff just make you vulnerable on Jakku. She's a scavenger working for a crime boss and is really good and mechanics and rebuilding old parts into something new. When she comes across a broken BB8, she repairs the droid and immediately springs to life yelling about some mission to find Luke Skywalker. Normally she'd ignore the call to adventure, but today she decides to help the little droid. She then bumps into Finn - a recently defected stormtrooper who also didn't have parents around, who only knew was the harsh world of the Imperial Remnant. He's annoying and way too friendly for her liking. She doesn't have time for friends, and then somehow both come across Han Solo, who's looking for that damn droid for Leia. Han takes both under his wing and suddenly - reluctantly - she begins to see Han as a father figure. One she never had. Over the course of the movie, Rey realizes she has the force and begins to hope that maybe she could leave Jakku forever.

    And then Rey and Kylo's paths cross in TFA. Both had similar childhoods, similar backgrounds, both have massive resentments, and anger. But where one goes right, the other goes left. Where one ditches his family name, the other picks it up and adopts it by choice. Where one loses hope, the other gains it. Where one breaks Luke, the other rebuilds him.

    And Rey's test - her arc - is either becoming like Kylo, who's angry, cynical, and hopeless, or like Luke, who once had it, and picks up the hope baton to rebuild the Jedi.
     
  6. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 26, 2020
    And ironically she did turn out to be a princess - as an Emperor's granddaughter!
     
  7. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Thats kinda what makes Rey a palpatine quite a big deal. the fact that she technically is related Emporer Palpatine. she is kinda royalty and she could be put in a position where she could take over the galaxy as impress if turned the dark side. personally i think that concept could have been interesting.
     
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  8. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    Which, I would argue, wouldn’t really be an issue for her if she was a Skywalker - a “Disney-era Luke” isn’t an original idea, and basically hits the same theoretical points as Rey Palpatine... but is plugged into the characters we care more about directly, has a stronger connection to the villain in Kylo, fits into the generational family story, and just isn’t going to succumb to the bias that Johnson and others have.

    Because ultimately, the family tie simply *is* that much more valuable not just to fans of Rey and the Skywalkers, but to LFL itself - arguably so much so it’s the only thing they cared about for Kylo.

    Seriously. As much fo a mess as Rey is, Kylo is arguably worse: his dearth of explanation or characterization for the expectations LFL had for audience reaction and investment outsized her multitude of different, half-formed ideas. It’s easy to argue that while the ST tries to make stabs at keeping some of her characterization, ultimately nothing Kylo did, or that LFL had explained about him, mattered. He's a family tie and a good actor, and that’s all LFL cared about.

    And I’d ultimately argue that Rey was a strong enough character that the predictable Skywalker reveal in TLJ really would have ended up only as an exponential boon for her if anyone at LFL had actually focused on what was best for her and the story - all the complaints about it being elitist were complete bull uttered by people usually deluding themselves, and what she would have lost from the clairty of having the tie in TFA would, sadly/cynically/correctly, have become a marketing trick and non-factor int he effectiveness of her story.

    As much as some people would howl at predictability, I’ve yet to see an argument it wouldn’t still, inevitably, have ended up better as a story.
     
  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I fully expected Rey to have to come to terms with the fact that she would eventually have to destroy Kylo, but she couldn't do it out of hatred. I thought they were going to twist her "victory" over Kylo in TFA into more of the way that Luke claimed "victory" over the Darth Vader apparition in the Dagobah cave. Yeah, you won the fight, but it was the wrong fight.

    Luke was afraid of Vader in TESB and had to conquer that fear. I expected Rey to have to learn to let go of her anger toward Kylo, but still have to ultimately conquer him as her foe in IX. But instead they became buddies... for some reason.

    I once heard ANH described as a really good D&D campaign where everyone gets to bounce back and forth, using all their abilities to finally win the day and TFA was that same campaign, but the DM's girlfriend was playing. I've never played D&D so I don't know how much truth there is to that.
     
  10. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Or maybe she walks out of the Sith Temple as Empress, and tells the FO to all stand down. The war is over. She's now in charge. The saga starts with a Queen, who becomes a Skywalker, and ends with an Empress who becomes ... a Skywalker.
     
  11. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    If the supposition is that the DM’s girlfriend is getting everything fed to her in a lazy, easy, and uninteresting way, I have a few disputes with some of that, but actually acknowledge other elements as having merit for a comparison.

    Until Act III of TFA, I would argue Rey feels a lot less like a novice character with favoritism from the DM, and more like a hard-core role-player who’s got enough experience to make a handy character sheet where the characters’ strengths all stem from their background and are practical. Rey being a tough, knowledgeable and skilled survivor actually makes sense. And I could even pinpoint the scenes at Maz’s castle as being something where the role-player deep dives into their character so much they separate themselves from the party like the Finn player did, but worse, and the DM confronts them with a “Dungeon Boss” they can’t possibly beat, and thus captures them easily.

    Act III, though, does show some bias going Rey’s way... but it’s not done in a lazy, unimaginative way, and I’m always someone who will disagree with the notion Rey becomes a boring character here. Abrams wants to make sure we know Rey is the main character and “crown her” as the main character here; in out Dungeons and Dragons comparison, it’d be like the DM wanting to reward the role player for nailing that part of the game, and cleverly designing the final dungeon so that the party can defeat the Dungeon Boss if they work together after he gives the role player an in-story power-up.

    Because ultimately, a strength of TFA, in my opinion, is that the character arcs and drama of Act III is actually very strong - I’d argue stronger than ANH, even, which is arguably its saving grace considering the actual destruction of SKB is so damn rote and repetitive at the same time.

    It’s the DM adding some clear “rails” to the story, but “rails” he’s constructed based off everyone’s role playing investment, so they still flow perfectly, with the lone exception of Rey’s gaining knowledge from Kylo’s interrogation - the clearest narrative cheat in the film’s climax.

    BUT! It’s not a cakewalk for Rey either, and she’s still far from a “boring invincible hero” - the player was given a chance to solo the boss in a mental realm mini-game, but is still outclassed by the Dungeon Boss’s stats in the physical confrontation and requires all other party members to inflict damage either traditionally or non-traditionally.

    I mean, Rey does struggle and suffer in TFA - but she also does get a perfect framework for a dramatic victory rather than a utilitarian one.

    ...Maybe a better comparison, for my money, would be professional wrestling - with ANH being a perfectly executed classic type of multi-man match, while TFA is a bit more of a spot-fest match with a clear “face” booked to win, but win dramatically.
     
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  12. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Where is the edge in that? being Empress would mean she takes after Palpatine. so it would make sense for that to come with a negative.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  13. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 21, 2012
    Who says? Why is a good Empress not an edge? She uses her heritage - being a Palpatine - for good and not evil. She has the power to end it all with one stroke. That almost sounds like...one of those — snaps fingers — subverted expectation-y things that’s all the rage these days.
     
  14. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I think Rey becoming empress would rather undermine the theme of democracy being a more ideal form of government than a dictatorship, though I do like the “full circle” aspect of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  15. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    I have never played D&D, and I can only speak of my own opinions on Rey, but she's just too much for me. When we see her fighting off those two guys who are trying to steal BB-8... Does it make sense that she can fight them off? Yes. Does it make sense that she's a natural pilot? Considering she can touch upon the force, yes. A lot of what she can do does make sense, but at a certain point you need a more flawed character or else you're ending up in Removed territory. The "bypassed the compressor" scene was when I had had enough of her. I was like, I get it, she's the protagonist.

    I think that's where the DM's girlfriend comparison comes from. You take all these examples individually and it's not that bad, but you start to add them up and you've got issues. Imagine if Luke had taken on the sand people by himself and then was able to fight back when the drunks attacked him in the Mos Eisley cantina. And then if Luke started knowing more about the Falcon than Han did. That wouldn't be doing Luke any favors and I don't think it did Rey any favors either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2021
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    As someone who believes there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator, I would not want Rey to become a Good Empress. It would certainly be subversive though.

    And I still want a back story on her parents, in a comic or novel.
     
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  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    @FightoftheForgotten , “Mary Sue” is a banned term here. Please don’t use it.

    It’s not that we can’t discuss whether or not that type fo criticism can apply; we’re fine with that kind of debate. It’s just it was used too many times by drive-by trolls, like comparing Kylo to a certain type of 1930’s-40’s German government, or his interrogation to a specific type of assault, or if someone insists on only calling Finn a certain custodial job.

    I do, however, enjoy actually discussing how much she does or does not fit that archetype of character, and how much it hurts or helps her appeal.

    I mean, a common thread between many successful pop-culture figures and their more hated and unpopular fan fiction counterparts is the element of them being “power fantasies”; to allow the audience to envision themselves as the capable and powerful hero of a story by giving them a POV character who is capable and powerful.

    And I often think it’s not really a matter of the scale of power and competence, but rather how delicately the writer balances drama with the power fantasy, and how good they are at simply writing a likable character.

    Grant Morrison, for instance, can write a Superman who’s far beyond even his own usual “over-powered” nature, and makes it work, because he can make the character still charming and inspiring, and manages to keep drama going in lots of little ways. Batman often gets a reputation for being “shilled” by bad writers who refuse to let him lose and embrace the “god of preparation” aspect too much, but almost everyone has at least one appearance by an over-prepared Batman they love. At the same time, both those characters have unlikeable “overpowered” appearances that make them either jerks or kill the drama of the story.

    With Rey, I can’t emphasize enough how much I think Abrams was wise to embrace Boyega and Ridley’s real life chemistry in reshoots - it goes a long ways towards making her charming - or how wise he and Kasdan were to have her denial be a major character flaw that contributed to her struggling against Kylo for the vast bulk of the film and suffering while doing so. Those are the keys to finding her still endearing, interesting, and deep enough to work as the central character of TFA.

    But I *do* get people for whom that doesn’t work - I just don’t think it’s wise to argue she’s “overpowered” as much as it is to criticize the storytelling around her or her characterization given her power, as that’s much more specifically where her story starts to fail or fall apart, both in comparison to more successful characters and in comparison to her first appearance in TFA vs TLJ and TROS.

    The problem isn’t them creating a powerful female character and even leaning into a power fantasy with her - it’s more common failures regarding how to make a character likable or how to maintain the drama, particularly once the films tried to push Kylo as her male lead and ditched his job as a threat to her or tired to make him seem attractive. Rey being capable at almost every challenge she’s faced with isn’t a problem if those remain challenges and don’t become excuses to use her as a plot device, just like she doesn’t really seem like a headache until she starts making head-ache inducing choices (like her later taste in men.)
     
  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Sorry about that.

    I found the way Wonder Woman was written in the movie of the same name to be much better handled than Rey ever was. WW was able to show flaws even though she was essentially a powerhouse.

    I also felt like Rey (and other characters) were just doing things because they are the types of things that those types of characters do. Rey wanting to keep BB-8... why does she care? They meet and then nothing. Why doesn't she sell the droid? Did they share a moment off screen? Is she lonely? Just because a person is secluded doesn't mean they're lonely. Seems like Rey could live closer to other people if she wanted to. So why does she keep BB-8? It seems to be because that's the type of decision that her type of character would make in this kind of film, but not because of anything directly linked to her as a person.

    Actually, I'll be honest. A lot of things about Jakku make no sense to me, but that's not really specific to Rey.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  19. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Whilst making Rey a ‘blood’ Skywalker i.e. Luke’s daughter, would have been a very obvious direction (some may say too obvious) to take for the ST, it does substantially reduce all those issues (pertaining to Rey) I talked about before re. character motivation and the emotional connection between characters. Making Rey Luke’s daughter would have automatically created the motivation required for Rey to join the fight... and of course the Kylo dynamic then becomes a lot more personal.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Exactly. Making her a Skywalker would give her a motivation to try to reach Kylo beyond “she’s a nice person” or dumb hormones or antiquated gender roles.

    I think if she had been Luke’s daughter, I would be far more of an ST fan.
     
  21. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 21, 2012
    If they could wedge in a long lost Rey Palpatine they could have done a Rey Skywalker thing too. I mean, the ST is now at the point where Palpatine had a secret family, he hated, or cloned children, he hated, for the purpose of ... whatever who knows ... and yet chose to speak to Anakin's grandchild to seduce him or something, but never actually did the same with his own grandchild who he said he had been waiting a long time for her to come visit him in the old sith retirement home.

    If this insanity is your solution for Rey, you could have done a "Luke had a wife and kid, and they were also killed that night at the Temple. Or so he thought. Rey was a little girl, and her mom instead kidnapped her and fled to some safe planet cuz this was all getting too much. Luke didn't have time to mention in TLJ, but now that he's a force ghost he sees what happens. When Kylo tells Rey this truth, she heads to Ahch-to to see 'dad'.
     
  22. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    That would undermine the retconning of Rey Nobody by replacing a disappointing heritage with a more desirable one (Skywalker) instead of a more terrifying one (Palpatine).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

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    Nov 21, 2012
    There’s nothing terrifying about Rey being Sheev’s grandchild. Nothing. Rey is nothing like her grandpa in any way shape or form, to make the audience question whether she may follow in his footsteps and become evil.

    Rey Palpatine is without any drama. At least Rey Skywalker - real Skywalker - has some narrative cohesiveness and makes sense character wise.
     
  24. Jedi_Fenrir767

    Jedi_Fenrir767 Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 16, 2013
    That’s because they added in the Palpatine aspect 3 weeks before the films release or something crazy like that.... How someone wasn’t fired for letting the whole ‘Rey’ business go on that long is crazy to me
     
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  25. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I liked Rey ‘Nobody’, because it feels contrived to me to keep making everybody be related to somebody else. Makes the Galaxy feel smaller.
     
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