ST Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Discussion Thread

My overall point is that, as far the narrative of the nine part film franchise is concerned, it doesn't matter whether any period between the films is boring or not because that story isn't being told.

And also, if you're going to put sincere conflict in those gaps (like between AOTC and ROTS) then you run the risk of people thinking that the in-between story is more exciting that the actual narrative. (some people like TCW more than the actual PT)

Obviously any and every gap is going to be mined for content because that's how LFL makes their money, but actually referencing that conflict in one of the films is a risky gamble.

Using The Mandalorian as an example since you already mentioned it, it doesn't matter what conflict is placed during that time period because the movies already exist and none of them mention Grogu or any of those other characters.

I can't speak for every fan. Some people just hate kids (in movies and in general). But humanizing Vader is not a complaint I've ever personally heard from anybody. It seems most people take issue with how the PT is structured and putting TPM closer to AOTC fixes most of the issues people have.

Usually people just say Anakin should have been older because it's something that would fix many, if not all, of the other issues they have. It's a quicker way to convey the much larger issues they have with the story.

 

I dunno i think thats holding Kylo to a higher standard than Vader. basically suggesting that he is dumb to think she might join him, which the basic concept is that she feels lost and Kylo is basically offering her a path. so to Kylo the friends don't matter and its possible that Rey would also be so lost she takes that step. its easy for the audience to say nah Rey loves her friends more than anything. but from a character perspective... thats not certain at all.

Its basically no different to Vader fighting Luke, he knew Luke would go to him because of his friends right? then slicing his hand off and then being like NOW JOIN ME! AND WE CAN RULE THE GALAXY. and Luke is all NOOO!. if it as Kylo in that situation people would be like Pftt he thought slicing someone arm off would convince someone to join them?

But then Luke did hit Vader on the shoulder so i guess Vader was just super pissed and cut Lukes hand off to teach him a lesson. father and son lesson. like a spanking.

And then of course in ROTJ he taunts Luke with the idea that he would just turn Leia instead. just to get luke in a rage and attack. infact ROTJ logic is really kinda questionable when you try and ground it the way people do with Kylo Ren.

 

In defense of TESB Vader, he does tell Luke that they can "end this destructive conflict" which is basically Vader saying that people no longer have to needlessly die in a war because him and Luke will be far more caring about the people of the Empire than Palpatine ever would be.

Kylo tries to get Rey on his side with the selling point of destroying the past and continuing to atomize the last members of the Resistance.

It's almost the exact opposite tactic.

 

That's the crux of it - they are Kylo fans and, like many of his fans that I see online, they see things from the perspective of "well, he's this, he's that, he's right about this, poor Kylo" and everything and everyone should revolve around him and cater to his wishes. So he doesn't need a motivation other than people were mean to him, or he's mentally ill, or "his parents were this and Luke was that" because they only see things from his perspective, not the perspective of anyone else. Because they find him compelling, they think we all should find him compelling, not matter what horrible thing he's done.

 

Well, 'this destructive conflict' was Vader projecting his inner state. This conflict of mine. He would have denied it, probably.

But: 'that's why you couldn't kill me', says Luke in ROTJ.

Kylo projects his inner state too. 'Your parents [,like mine,] threw you away like garbage but you can't stop needing them, that's your [ and my] greatest weakness[...]Let the past die...' etc. Kylo is not conflicted about Rey, so the 'destructive conflict' idea would not make sense. But he speaks about ruling together.

Darksiders talking about ending the war -or the idea of them caring about people?Laughable. Vader's 'peace, security, justice'.

Or even Palpatine: 'and we shall have peace'. The peace of a graveyard.

 

But that would never happen. thats just not Vader. its each persons version of peace. and no one has to agree with it because the person in charge decides the rules of that peace. thats what Vader wants. he wants Luke to be his apprentice. but how Vader looks at things may differ from Lukes if he can't turn Luke to the dark side. which obviously would be Vaders intention. Vader assumes he is on the right side so Luke would feel the pull just like he did.

Vader doesn't want peace. he has shown very little mercy to anyone to give off the impression Vader wants peace. In whats now legends he wasn't training Starkiller for peace. and he treated Starkiller like crap.

It would be incredibly out of character for Vader to not want a tight grip on the galaxy.

 

Two seconds.

I would say that since we've only seen Vader in ANH and TESB this far, it's in line with what we've seen. If follow up material decided to say otherwise, that's hardly TESB's fault.

And even if I entertain that your assessment is 100% accurate, at least Vader was intelligent enough to lie. Kylo just said, "Let's team up and kill your friends, lol."

 

Kylo supposedly was in Rey`s mind and knows her on a level like no other. He would need approximately one brain cell to know "lets kick back and watch everyone be slaughtered, it will be fun" is not gonna be a good sales pitch. I would hold a single cellular organism to that standard.

At least go with "join me and this can all end here and now and we`ll make something new". Even if he had no intention, even if he purposefully tried to be as vague as possible here with just implying he will stop the attack. He really throws nothing on the offering table. And then is gobsmacked when it doesn`t work.

Now of course Rey is equally as more-stupid-than-a-single-cellular-organism because she is just shocked, shocked (also after supposeldy knowing him like no other) that he keeps his blank monotone disinterest in things.

Either a) their souls and minds are so incredibly empty that their force-mind-melting truly gave them nothing concrete about the other, b) they are the two most unaware people in the history of everything or c) that dyad thing is way oversold and is just basically more a technical connection that turns them into a battery or a power booster but has no mind aspect to speak of.

Unfortunately the soul-bonding-kinda effect is the only plot device they try to base their insta-connection on so if that isn`t there, it all falls apart.

 

Even without the context of the PT, I'd argue that whilst Vader is shown to be ruthless in the OT, he's quite pragmatic. And as soon as Luke being his son is thrown into the mix (TESB), Vader seems genuinely more concerned with connecting (and potentially ruling with) his son than he does in subjecating the galaxy to terror per se. It's why Vader's redemption arc works within the OT, because as terrifying as Vader may be, he is shown to value his son... and that's the chink in his armour, and the path to redemption. Kylo's psychology is no where near as compelling (IMO).

 

I always pictured Vader as adopting an ends justify the means kinda mentality as he got older.

Kylo just seems like a 30 something school shooter who probably posts on whatever the GFFA equivalent of 4chan is.

 

I know this has been discussed before but is Kylo Ren a sith?

 

No he is not.

 

What is he then? I'm not sure if any comics or books adress this.

I've always had the impression that TROS portrayed him as a sith. He agrees to help Palpatine so he can obtain the sith fleet. I mean being the leader of a sith empire makes you a part of that group at least indirectly.

 

He

He is a dupe and a pawn just like Ventress and is no more important to Palpatine than the ant he could crush under his boot once his usefulness has been outlived.

 

Embarrassing.

 

'If he's not a sith, what is he?'

Vader's heir. Lucas said once that Anakin was the chosen one even as Vader. A jedi chosen one and then a sith chosen one.

In other words, neither jedi nor sith, but one of a kind (and a dark side user)

This is the Vader Kylo believed in. 'I will finish what you started'.

'Skywalker, Snoke, the sith, the jedi, let it all die'. No code but that of 'grandfather'. No masters.

His 'join me' echoes that of Vader, and I think he saw or heard the Bespin duel through the force once. In any case: he wanted to fulfill that unique destiny: a new order, the definitive order, ruled by a dyarchy - a Rule of Two.

Maybe something changed between TLJ and TROS, and he gravitated towards the sith tradition. The dyad is called 'prophesized' in the visual dictionary, and he wanted that sith throne after all.

 

Likely because he was a Sith in all but name to start with.

 

Seems likely, yeah. But the uniqueness of Vader, and by implication of himself, was maybe one of the ways in which he was manipulated into his Mighty Kylo Ren role -into mighty stupidity- by others.

In any case, that line in TFA 'the girl I've heard so much about' and his 'what girl?' sounds like him having been told 'someone will come' during or before TFA. Maybe the voice of Vader, that is to say Palpatine's.

 

Awesome! Now that the ST is over I can't wait to find out what happened during the six plus hours of movie that I watched.

 

i see his speech in TLJ about letting it all die is similar Vader saying the destructive conflict could end.. its the same sentiment for me.. he does want to finish what Vader started after all

 

Yeah, obviously they both want the galaxy under their thumb, but the difference stems from what they want versus how they're trying to sell it.

"Let's end this destructive conflict" at least shows that Vader still knows how normal people think and feel.

"Let's destroy everything" ain't gonna win over anybody unless they're just as nuts as Kylo is.