Discussions Expanded Universe contradictions

Given that Bail does not appear to be "Wanted, Dead or Alive" during the conversation with Tion, it follows that, after TFU, the Emperor extended some kind of "olive branch" to the House of Organa - sending them a message telling them he was blaming Starkiller, and that Bail was no longer a Wanted Man.

Why, we don't know, though we can speculate. But for the two, "Wanted Bail" and "Not Wanted Bail" to exist in the same continuity, implies some kind of resolution in between the status changes.

 

The fact that Alderaan was such a key Core World lends itself to the probability that the Empire would want to play nice with it at least until the Death Star was finished, for fear that open support could fan the flames of rebellion.
Still makes Leia's attempt at claiming innocents in ANH stretch credibility, but then a very similar issue is raised in Canon in light of Rogue One.

 

I can't really buy the Empire wanting to play nice with Alderaan until the Death Star was finished, because as I have pointed out before Palpatine had no issue with planning to have Bail PUBLICLY EXECUTED before he was rescued by Starkiller.

 

Anytime the Clone Wars and the Prequels are mentioned before 1999

 

So Laybirinth of Evil kind of opens a few plotholes in Legends:
-how come Mace and the other Jedi never really looked into Captain Dynes death? Cause given where they were killed its hard that Palpatine could claim they where battle casualities.
-why did everyone just forget TC16 existited? He had been around Anakin and Obi Wan on their journey for quite a while and before that had been Gunrays property, why did nobody seek for him? Or even 3PO potentially mention him? Also why did Palpatine even spare him, potentially risking everything?
-the Jedi know the Sith is on Coruscant, why does Yoda leave for Kashyyyk? Its already dumb in RotS that he leaves in such a crucial moment, but at least from the movies PoV they know next to nothing about Sidious. With the book Yoda´s descision is just pure insanity, going to save a random world in the most crucial moment of his life...

 

I think not everything in Star Wars can always be explained rationally. Sometimes there are things that have to be this way simply because the story requires things to be that way to work. Yoda’s case is one such case.

All this continuity errors were corrected after the Prequels. For example, in the Thrawn Trilogy it's said that the Clone Wars were a conflict where the Republic fought against a Clone Army, which obviously contradicts the Prequels. But this apparent contradiction can easily be explained with the Republic comics, in wich the Republic actually fights against an Army of Clones created by the Separatists on Seleucami. So, the Thrawn Trilogy references were already fixed.

 

The Multimedia Clone Wars Project and TCW both are different universes and different styles and TCW is still canon to Legends

 

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith Issue 4:
“Naga Sadow was a magician of pure Sith blood, who was in rebellion against the Sith rulers, those fallen Jedi who wore the title Dark Lords of the Sith…”

“Freedon Nadd said that Naga Sadow was sentenced to die by the reigning Dark Lord…”

“The magician Sadow and his followers hid on the fourth moon of Yavin, where he practiced his alchemy undisturbed.”

Then in Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire, Naga Sadow is the Dark Lord of the Sith and has a rival in Ludo Kresh, another pure blooded Sith. No Dark Jedi ruling over them. And he goes to Yavin because of losing the Great Hyperspace War, not because he was trying to avoid being sentenced to death by the reigning Dark Lord of the time, who was also a former Dark Jedi.
So Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire contradict TOTJ Dark Lords of the Sith.

 

One thing does not exclude the other. Naga Sadow may have gone to Yavin 4 for losing the Hyperspace War and also because he was sentenced to death by the Dark Lord of the time. One thing does not exclude the other, in fact it could be said that one of the many reasons why he was sentenced to death by the Dark Lord of the time is to have lost the Hyperspace War.

 

Or that Holocron was mostly "written by the survivors" - Ludo Kressh's followers - who were doing their best to exaggerate his importance, as "the reigning Dark Lord" and diminish Sadow's role in the war.

 

Yeah. the solution is remove TCW from Legends, but Disney simply don't care about continuity issues.

 

To be fair, in the last years of Legends the authors themselves streched the lore as good as they could to make TCW fit and include explicit references to its lore in things like FotJ or TCW novels that had like Ashoka meet Paelleon and Callista.

 

It’s true, in the novels written in the last years of the Expanded Universe there are references to TCW, but these are small references that could easily be ignored, or directly eliminated in new reprints of the novels themselves. In the Fate of the Jedi series the Mortis Triad is mentioned and it’s said that Anakin and Obi-Wan were on Mortis, but Ahsoka is not mentioned. So, if TCW is removed from the Expanded Universe it’s enough to write a small comic book set during the Clone Wars in which Obi-Wan and Anakin end up on Mortis, without having to accept TCW as it is. In general, these are small references to the events of the series that can be easily rewritten, modifying individual paragraphs of the novels without having to modify the novels in full. Just reprint the novels with a few little tweaks, and that’s it. The TCW-related comics and novels can easily be absorbed within the New Canon, because they don’t contradict the established continuity of the Disney’s Canon. Anyway it’s not a real problem, since Disney itself doesn’t care to maintain the New Canon’s continuity without contradictions. Just look at everything that has been done in recent years to realize that Disney doesn’t care about continuity: TCW Season 7 contradicts Ahsoka’s novel, The Bad Batch contradicts Kanan Jarrus' comics, The Mandalorian contradicts the Aftermath Trilogy, the Sequel Trilogy contradicts the Sequel Trilogy itself, the Prequel Trilogy, the Original Trilogy, Bloodline, the Aftermath Trilogy and Poe Dameron’s comics. They are the first to contradict themselves!

 

TCW Season 7 contradicting Ahsoka's novel isn't a big deal. Most of the novel still happened, it's just the flashbacks to the Siege of Mandalore that were overwritten because we didn't have the full context at the time and Filoni wanted something more epic when he finally got the chance to properly tell that story. Shows are on a higher tier of canonicity than other media that more casual fans are least likely to see, which is nothing new and something that was happening long before the New Canon decision. Labyrinth of Evil contradicted the Clone Wars micro-series, The Force Unleashed contradicted the original trilogy, the Prequels contradicted plenty of older Expanded Universe stories, etc. The story of how the Death Star plans were stolen was told several times. The story of how the rebels found Hoth was told several times. The story of how the rebels stole the shuttle Tydirium was told several times. While attempts were made to reconcile these contradictions, it was done after the fact. Because at the time these stories were told, the people making them didn't care. Also, the Star Wars comics from Dark Horse in 2013 that took place between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back really didn't care about maintaining the continuity since it was basically a reboot of that time gap.

 

We can pretend that TCW dont happen in the Legends timeline i know its better but it happen just like Sequel Trilogy happen in Disney Canon and SWTOR with KOTOR 1 and 2 TCW is part of Legends even if there are contradictions

 

Contradictions are objective discrepancies that cannot be explained. For example, the discrepancies between Labyrinth of Evil and the Clone Wars micro-series are contradictions, because they are objective discrepancies that cannot be explained and reconciled, so it's up to the reader/viewer to decide which of the two versions is more beautiful for him (in my case, I prefer Labyrinth of Evil) and consequently ignore the version they consider less attractive. However, in the cases you mentioned, these are not contradictions because the discrepancies you mentioned have all been explained and reconciled in a very credible way (for example the various stories about the theft of the Death Star plans). So, the contradictions you mentioned (except for the discrepancies between Labyrinth of Evil and the Clone Wars micro-series) are not true contradictions and should not be taken into account, since they have all been explained. In the New Canon there are many more objective contradictions than in the Expanded Universe, because in all the cases I have mentioned there are two versions, which cannot be reconciled or explained in any way. Pablo Hidalgo himself admitted that these are irreconcilable contradictions, and to justify this he simply used the "point of view” argument. Dave Filoni himself admitted that these are genuine contradictions, and he never even tried to justify himself, he simply said that he did what he did because it seemed more beautiful to him to do so, because no one reads books and comics and they don’t count.
I honestly believe that the contradictions between TCW season 7 and Ahsoka’s novel could have been avoided, if the authors had realized that Ahsoka should not be around during Revenge of the Sith, since nothing in the movie suggests she’s still around. It would have been much better if after leaving the Jedi Order, she hadn’t appeared until Rebels. But that’s another story, and it has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

The fact that TCW is part of both Canon and Legends was decided by Disney in 2014, and it doesn’t make any sense. Unfortunately, we can’t do anything about it, but that doesn’t mean that we have to passively accept it, because if something doesn’t make sense then it just doesn’t make sense, no matter what Disney or anyone else says. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t deny that in the Expanded Universe there are real contradictions, otherwise I wouldn’t have opened this thread. However, prior to the creation of TCW there were not many objective contradictions in the Expanded Universe, and all the contradictions that have arisen in the stories published in the 90s were already explained and resolved during the realization of the Prequel Trilogy and in the following years (until 2007). It was Dave Filoni and George Lucas who multiplied the contradictions creating new continuity errors. But unlike the contradictions existing in the pre-2008 Expanded Universe, the contradictions brought by TCW were infinitely greater, so much so the Expanded Universe authors had to begin to jump through hoops to try to reconcile things, devising meaningless explanations and adding unneeded plots (like the chapter on the origin of Darth Maul in Darth Plagueis novel). For this reason, I think it makes no sense to continue to consider TCW as part of the Expanded Universe when the series doesn’t even fit with the universe in which it would supposedly exist within.
Officially, only the first six seasons of the series are part of the Expanded Universe. To know how the series ended you need to move to the New Canon, because the end of the series is found in the New Canon. What happened to Ahsoka after season 5? To know it you have to see season 7, read Ahsoka’s novel, see Rebels, see The Mandalorian and then see the future Ahsoka’s series, and all these things are exclusively part of the New Canon. What happened to Ventress after season 5? To know it is necessary to read "Dark Disciple", which is exclusively part of the New Canon. So, what is the point of continuing to consider the series as part of the Expanded Universe if not only the series contradicts 70% of the Expanded Universe itself, but also you have to move to the New Canon to see how it ended? The answer is, it just doesn’t make sense. Since the New Canon was built around and for TCW, it makes much more sense to consider TCW and related material as exclusively part of the New Canon. That’s it. Since in the Expanded Universe there is already a complete timeline of the Clone Wars, it makes no sense to replace this complete and well-branched timeline with an incomplete and not branched timeline, that contradicts the rest of the material and ends up in another continuity. So, the solution remains only one: remove TCW and related materials from the Legends continuity, move everything into the New Canon and allow the Clone Wars Multimedia Project to retake its original place in the Legends continuity.


PS: In this thread, some supposed contradictions have been mentioned several times between KOTOR I & II and SWTOR, but it has never been specified what these contradictions are. Could you be more specific? Because I haven't yet understood what they are. The same applies to the alleged contradictions between The Force Unleashed and the Original Trilogy. Apart from the plot hole of Bail Organa (which in my opinion is not even a real plot hole), I don't understand what are these contradictions.

 

Hey, am I the only one bugged by the inconsistencies between the Clone Wars micro-series and the rest of the Legends multimedia project?

The biggest is the contradictions between the micro-series and Labyrinth of Evil, but there are others.

Like when Anakin was knighted. The micro-series frames it so that it looks like Anakin became a Jedi Knight after the Duel on Yavin 4 and the Battle of Hypori, with Ki-Adi-Mundi referring to the latter like it just happened in the Jedi Council meeting where they decide Anakin should be Knighted. But other EU stories depict Anakin as not becoming a Knight until much later in the war. It's also weird that Ventress is never referred to by name by any of the characters, even though according to the EU the Jedi should be familiar with her by this point. Ventress being recruited by Dooku is also framed as taking place during the Battle of Muunilist rather than before like in rest of the EU, not to mention that Ventress' first encounter with the Jedi does not have her specifically trying to kill Anakin despite that being the original task given to her by Dooku and Sidious which was specifically tied to the Duel on Yavin 4. It's also weird that Anakin defeats Ventress by tapping into the dark side and causing her to fall to her supposed death, since this is a plot point that is repeated in the EU with Anakin dropping Ventress to her supposed death in the Republic comics.

 

The contradictions between the micro-series and Labyrinth of Evil are real contradictions, and we have already talked about this. It depends on our personal taste to choose which version of the Battle of Coruscant we like best. Personally I prefer Labyrinth of Evil, so I don't take into account the latest episodes of the micro-series. For me, the micro-series ends at chapter 21, and that’s it.

As for Anakin’s knightood, there’s actually no contradiction.
Ki-Adi Mundi says: "It has never happened that someone could stand up to 6 Jedi at the same time". If you first watch the episode of the Battle of Hipori and then later watch the episode in which Anakin is knighted, then it may seem that Ki-Adi Mundi refers to the Battle of Hipori as an event recently happened. But actually it's not so. It’s a feeling given by the closeness of the episodes between them. Since the episodes are very close to each other, then it seems that this is only one big story, which starts with the Battle of Muunilimst and ends with Anakin’s knightood. But if you follow the Multimedia Project chronologically, then this feeling disappears. Ki-Adi Mundi was talking in general, he was simply mentioning Grievous' abilities, and in doing so he recalled the Battle of Hipori. That’s all. It seems that he is talking about the Battle of Hipori as if it were an event that happened just before, because the episodes are extremely close to each other. Immediately before Ki-Adi Mundi says the sentence I quoted before, Mace Windu says: "This General Grevious is changing the fate of the War". This sentence implies that some time has passed since the Battle of Hipori, because if General Grievous is changing the fate of the War then it means that he has been around long enough and that he fought other battles after Hipori. So as I said, it’s just a feeling given by the closeness of the episodes between them, because the same Mace Windu implicitly confirms that it’s been some time since the Battle of Hipori. So, there’s no contradiction.

Ventress’s story doesn’t even contradict the micro-series.
The episodes in which Dooku recruits Ventress occur before the Battle of Muunilimst, not during the battle itself. This is confirmed by many sources, such as the New Essential Chronology and other Star Wars pre-TCW general guides. They’re simply flashbacks. Not all episodes of the micro-series happen in chronological order (exactly like in TCW) and this is an example of this. In addition, the micro-series never suggests that Anakin killed her. She doesn’t die, she simply falls from a great height and that’s it. Darth Sidious entrusts her with the task of killing Anakin, and indeed through the entire Multimedia Project (including the comics) she tries to kill Anakin. The fact that the Jedi never call her by name is a small detail and nobody cares, because it doesn’t contradict anything. So, there is no contradiction here either.

These things seem to be contradictions because the micro-series is not designed to be watched alone. The micro-series is designed to be part of a bigger story, is designed to be part of a whole and to be accompanied by the books, the comics and the video games of the Multimedia Project. To fully understand the Multimedia Project, it’s necessary to watch and read everything in a strictly chronological way, because otherwise some things seem to contradict the others, when in reality it’s not so.

 

Here's the problem with everything you've just said... framing. TCW frames itself as a series that doesn't tell its episodes in chronological order. It makes that very clear. The micro-series doesn't. The way it frames itself, the audience is being told that the events of the micro-series happens in the order we see them and in relation to each other.

And what Mace said doesn't imply that some time has passed, because he said "this General Grievous is changing the shape of the war" (which is similar to when Obi-Wan said that what happened on Ohma-D'un was the new face of the war) instead of just "General Grievous is changing the shape of the war". Which implies that General Grievous is some new threat that they're only just now learning about and reacting to, rather than someone who has been around for a while now. Ki-Adi-Mundi also said "this must be dealt with" after recapping the Battle of Hypori. If some time had passed, it would be strange if he was only just now insisting that the Council does something about it. So this frames the Battle of Hypori as something that just happened. Not to mention that Obi-Wan in this scene doesn't refer to Ventress by name despite his familiarity with her elsewhere.

As for Ventress, her fall is still framed as a death. If the audience just watched the micro-series and didn't follow the rest of the project, they would be led to believe that she died on Yavin 4. Just like how audiences were led to believe that Darth Maul died in The Phantom Menace, which is why some audience members found his appearance in Solo to be jarring. Or how audiences were led to believe that the Emperor died in Return of the Jedi. Because those were framed as deaths. As for Darth Sidious entrusting Ventress to kill Anakin Skywalker... once again, despite this being what she is initially sent out to do her first chronological encounters with the Jedi on Ohma-D'un, Ruul, and Queyta have nothing to do with her trying to kill Anakin which raises the question of what Ventress exactly did when Dooku and Sidious sent her out to kill Anakin if it doesn't directly lead into her appearance during the Battle of Muunilist.

The micro-series is totally designed to be watched alone, especially since most people are more likely to just watch the micro-series instead of following the rest of the project. Other material may reference events from the micro-series, but that doesn't mean the micro-series lines up perfectly with those other material. To me it honestly feels like events the micro-series did happen, just not necessarily in the same way they were presented in the micro-series. What we saw in the micro-series was just from a certain point of view... a highly exaggerated and over the top point of view.

EDIT: And speaking of Ventress, her appearance in "Boba Fett: Pursuit" is a contradiction since according to the multi-media project the story takes place after Obsession.

 

Okay, I admit that the framing of the micro-series is a problem, but this doesn’t imply the existence of contradictions. The events of the micro-series fall within the timeline of the Clone Wars Multimedia Project and the episodes have a well-defined chronological space, so there are no contradictions from a storytelling point of view. The fact that the micro-series has a confusing framing is another issue. Moreover, we cannot expect all the dialogues to fit together perfectly. I mean, in A New Hope Obi-Wan says that Anakin would have wanted his son to receive his lightsaber when the time came, and that’s absolutely not true because Anakin never said such a thing. That dialogue totally contradicts the Prequel Trilogy, and yet no one cares. Why? Because the important thing is the overall plot, focusing on the smallest details is useless and you can’t expect that every word fits perfectly to everything else.

This was stated several times by Tartakovsky, Lucas and other Lucasfilm employees. It’s obvious that the micro-series is an exaggerated version of what really happened. Is it possible that Mace Windu could beat an entire army of droids with his fists? Obviously not. Come on, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that the micro-series is an exaggerated version of what really happened... What really matters about the micro-series is the overall plot, and it has always been so.

 

So if it's the overall plot that matters... why do the contradictions in the Disney continuity matter? Ahsoka and The Clone Wars give different details about the Siege of Mandalore, but the overall plot is the same. The Bad Batch and the Kanan comics give different details about the death of Depa Billaba, but the overall plot of her dying during Order 66 on Kaller is the same and the differences are easily justified by seeing what the Kanan comics present as how Kanan remembers it and what the Bad Batch presents as what actually happened because trauma can affect how we remember things. The Aftermath novels and The Mandalorian give different details about Cobb Vanth finding Boba Fett's armor, but the overall plot is kept the same and the differences are easily justified because what The Mandalorian shows is the story that Cobb Vanth is telling Din and he could simply be leaving details out to simplify his tale.

And I actually do care about Obi-Wan saying that Anakin would have wanted his son to receive his lightsaber when the time came, because while some of what Obi-Wan tells Luke can be seen as true from a certain point of view... Obi-Wan telling Luke that Anakin would have wanted his son to receive his lightsaber was just an outright lie.

I'm actually fine with ignoring the contradictions in the old EU most of the time (the only huge exception is the Bail Organa plot hole in The Force Unleashed) for the sake of a good story and I can do the same for the Disney continuity. Which is also why I disagree with your opinion about how Ahsoka shouldn't be around during the events of Episode III, because it made for a better story with moments like the duel with Maul and Ahsoka saving Rex during Order 66. Without those moments, her story would lack some serious emotional beats. The movie didn't need to suggest that she was still around, because the movie was not about her. And I only point out how inconsistencies exist in the EU because of the double standards you're showing. Despite what you claim, Disney isn't the first to contradict themselves. The contradictions started with George Lucas, which you yourself pointed out. But the story was good enough for everyone to overlook those contradictions most of the time.

 

@CosmoHender

Honestly in both Legends and Canon i find the overall plot to be really cohesive and straight forward

 

@CosmoHender

I feel like you’re missing the point and you misunderstood the meaning of what I wanted to say in the first place. In my initial post I said that, in my opinion, TCW-related materials (that is novels, comics and video games connected to the series) could be absorbed within the New Canon, because they don't contradict what is already established in the New Canon. Then I said that even if these materials slightly contradicted the New Canon there would be no problem, because even in the New Canon there are contradictions. Then I listed the contradictions of the New Canon. This is what I originally wrote: “The TCW-related comics and novels can easily be absorbed within the New Canon, because they don’t contradict the established continuity of the Disney’s Canon. Anyway it’s not a real problem, since Disney itself doesn’t care to maintain the New Canon’s continuity without contradictions...”

I wasn’t complaining about the contradictions existing in the New Canon. I talked about the contradictions existing in the New Canon in reference to a well-defined argument, namely that TCW should be removed from the Legends continuity and that TCW-related materials should be absorbed within the New Canon. Then you replied to my original post saying that even in the Expanded Universe there are several contradictions, then I replied to you saying that the ones you listed were not true contradictions, since they were all explained in an extremely credible way by Lucasfilm of the time. Then you brought up the Multimedia Project. And that’s it.

I will not reply to you about Ahsoka and Revenge of the Sith because otherwise I would come out off topic, since this isn’t a thread on the contradictions of the New Canon.

 

You said that Disney doesn't care, which bugged me. Because I feel like Disney does care about its continuity at least most of the time. Saying that Disney doesn't care is like saying that George Lucas didn't care about maintaining continuity without contradictions. It was just a mean jab.

And several of the contradictions I listed are still contradictions. The Force Unleashed still doesn't line up with the original trilogy. The different stories of how the Rebel Alliance discovered Hoth don't line up with each other (like Star Wars 3-D claims that Han suggested it to the Rebel Alliance while Iceworld claims that Luke found it). The 2013 Dark Horse ongoing series doesn't line up with the rest of the Expanded Universe at all. And as I also recently pointed out, Asajj Ventress' appearance in "Boba Fett: Pursuit" takes place after Obsession despite that not making sense.

I don't disagree with how TCW-related materials could be absorbed into the New Canon, though at the same time I don't think it would make too much of a difference since it doesn't really affect the main story of The Clone Wars. And even if you remove TCW from the Legends continuity, that wouldn't make too much of a difference either. People will still enjoy the stories that they want to enjoy, whether they are officially canon or not.

 

@CosmoHender

the nice thing about Force Unleashed is that it lives so much in its own little bubble and really has no bearing on the rest of the canon you can ignore it and no ones the wiser


Also there are sooo many let’s steal the Death Star plans stories