Discussion The Future Of The Force/Force Users Post TROS

Well the Sith Purebloods (Species) made their community work. They operated very similarly to the Spartans of Sparta. The Dark Jedi were the ones who let being worshipped like gods go to their head. I think if the Sith returned to the Pureblood culture and society, one where the whole are weapon, it could work, granted that is difficult to sell to ego.

 

Sith Empires have worked. But they are a lot harder to make work than Jedi ones. The most successful depend upon having a good leader who is untouchable by his underlings.

 

Very true, one empire lasted a millennium I think.

 

No you didn't. You compared me to Palpatine. You didn't qualify it, you just called me Palpatine.

If the Rule leads to bad outcomes, which the PT Jedi HAVE by being so isolated, then it is a bad rule. It needs to be changed.

Which George? George's themes change. Since it is Luke's attachment to Vader that redeems vader and defeats the Sith. I also think George intended for the PT Jedi to be WRONG, since they are wrong in both the PT and OT.

No it's not. Anakin is an example of how the Jedi's non-attachment is self-isolating, Anakin asked for help and no Jedi was able to give it, because they CAN'T, they don't even understand what he is asking for, they have cut themselves off from little things with their fixation on "the greater good", looking at the big picture they can no longer see the little pictures that make it up. This comes up in TCW as well.

Someone who never faces temptation isn't strong. They are untested. That the Jedi sought to make an entire community of people who have never been tested, who have no real reference for how to DEAL with temptation, shows that they are at best cowards who have no faith in their own people and at worst have no idea what they are doing.

If the Jedi want to meditate on the force then they should do just that, no attachments. If they want to be peacekeepers and enforcers for the Republic then they need attachments, to understand how people think and to see the small picture.

 

Instead of going through all of the semantics above, the question is really about: should Jedi be allowed to have marriages and families (keep in touch with their birth/pre-Jedi families and friends, and start their own families) or not.

I think a Jedi could definitely do the above without getting possessive and falling to the dark side.

 

Disagree.

People in real life (like the military, special agents, government bureaucrats and elected officials, etc.) can get married and have kids. We don't ban soldiers from marrying. In most religions, marriage isn't banned as some obstacle to following God.

Jedi just need to be taught how to be aware of and manage their emotions. Getting married is not about putting your spouse above ethics and morality.

Anakin's attachments to Shmi and Padme = unhealthy, because they became more possessive than compassionate, reacted by causing suffering and death for others.
Luke's attachment to his father, and Anakin's newfound attachment to Luke, both in ROTJ = healthy, about compassion, didn't cause either to cause suffering and death for others.

Even Anakin being in a forbidden marriage didn't make him turn to the dark side. We can easily imagine a logical situation where Anakin instead rejects Palpatine in ROTS. We see how easily Anakin could have just stayed in the Jedi Temple, and Mace take-out Palpatine. He had a choice. To say he was doomed to fall because he was married fundamentally misunderstands the entire saga.

Plenty of people in real life are all the time given choices to decide between something that better promotes them and their loved ones, or all of society in a fair manner. That's why there are things called laws, and crime, and legal but unethical behavior like nepotism and favoritism. It's all around in real life. And people may make the poorer choice in real life, but just as many if not more people make the more ethical choices too. Just recently, think of all the doctors and nurses and pharmacists who didn't give the COVID vaccine to themselves or their loved ones first, instead waiting for the proper rollout and all the elderly and most sick to get it first.

 

Such as in ROTJ, where Vader and Luke's family bonds proved Yoda, Obi-wan and the Jedi wrong and redeemed Anakin Skywalker and killed Emperor Palpatine.

You can love in a nonpossessive way while married, or with your own kids, or with the family that raised you.

It wasn't Anakin's marriage that corrupted him. The marriage wasn't dark-side. It was his selfishness and possessiveness, sacrificing his morality to pursue selfish desires as the cost of suffering and death of others.

 

Marriage isn’t necessarily “very different.”

As for “You can, but it is extremely difficult” … that’s what heroes are supposed to do. Difficult things.

Jedi should warn, educate about, and train/prepare for it. But not forbid it. The Jedi can follow their hearts and the Force, educate them and then trust them to make the best decisions for their lives. Many people in real life go on missions while still with a family.

 

AND? They are the same person. You compared me to space hitler because you don't like hearing the truth about the Jedi.

Also wow, that is one heck of a back handed non-apology.

No you have it backwards and are massively victim blaming.

The Jedi's rule isolated Anakin from all the people who actually loved him and pushed him away from them. The rule isolated them from the Galaxy. Even if Anakin hadn't fallen the galaxy still hated the Jedi. It was a bad rule.

Love IS attachment. You keep trying to split hairs and argue semantics but you are wrong. Love is an attachment, attachment is about holding people. Your definition is wrong and seems tailored to support the Jedi.

Anakin isn't the only jedi to fall.

It was his choice. But they pushed him to it, they took away everyone who loved him. Anakin can and DID face loss, he saw friends die in war, he had experience with loss.

What he didn't have was support from people around him. Even when he asked for it.

The Jedi get children and raise them in a setting where their only attachment is to and within the order, they can't relate to someone who has connects outside of that because they don't have a frame of reference for it.

No, Yoda says "don't morn...don't miss them". That is saying don't value them, if you don't morn and don't miss then they mean nothing to you. Morning is natural, missing people is natural and healthy. Yoda's advice might work for someone who has been trained since todlerhood to treat themselves and their close companions as people to be sacrificed if needed, but not for someone raised in a healthy environment.

WHY did they remove this temptation? For the greater good. The Jedi order (under Yoda) decided it was better to isolate themselves from the world than to risk someone falling.

Are you agreeing with Palpatine?

How do the trails test against temptation?

Well here is the thing, after the trails the Jedi DON'T live isolated lives. They have very involved lives, they travel, meet others, resolve issues or kill them, all while isolating themselves from the world around them.

No it's accurate of the PT. They are cowards, moral cowards who won't stand up to the Republic despite it's corruption. They are personal cowards who don't challenge ideas.

"luke" in TLJ is a coward and a hypocrite, his views are worthless another failure who never had the courage to surpass Yoda.

Love without attachment is abusive. If you don't care about the people you 'love' it's lust, at best.

No it's not. Saying it doesn't make it true. Love and friendships are attachments, you have an attachment to the people you care about. Whether you are married, related or a padawan to them.

 

The Jedi are warrior monks who serve a higher purpose. That is to promote peace and justice in the galaxy and to follow the will of the Force. Could they get married? Sure they could but if they’re going to follow their hearts instead of the Force they could also simply leave the order. Being a Jedi isn’t a 9 to 5 job. It’s a long life commitment and sacrifice to the greater good of the galaxy. It’s a hard life as Qui-Gon tells Anakin. Anakin committed to that life but couldn’t see it through. He had the choice to leave just like his Padawan did but instead he turned to the dark side and killed everyone. Anakin is not a victim of the Jedi. That’s nonsense.

 

Mostly agree but wanted to add: I also think The Jedi shouldn’t be an order, butt much more decentralized.

And following your heart is following the Force. They should be in harmony, not in conflict. Sometimes the best way to serve the Force is to focus on your family, like perhaps Leia should have done with Ben. Sometimes the best way to serve your heart and family is to go out and help expose corruption or diplomatically end a conflict, making it a better Galaxy for your loved ones too. It’s up to the Jedi to figure out balance in their own life, and balance can look different in different times and circumstances, as long as it’s never in conflict with morality. There should be more Jedi civilians, Jedi following careers in a multitude of areas while still being Jedi, etc.

 

It's wasn't a joke it was an insult. Something you decided to open the conversation with.

No, Lucas has the Jedi lie. He also has the PT with there no attachment rule as flawed. You seem to not accept that.

Oh yes a joke, you insult me and then laugh at me so it must be a joke. If I don't like being insulted then it's my problem.

No he wasn't. He was a good jedi who had struggles. Struggles that the other jedi couldn't answer or relate to so he was pushed away.

He did commit though, the Jedi just took away his support for committing. Obi-Wan was sent away because Palpatine knew Anakins love for him would anchor him to the order.

You called me Palpatine, if you agree with me you are agreeing with Palpatine.

I don't hate the Jedi. I hate the cowards of the PT, who isolate themselves from the people of the galaxy while still interfering in their lives, but without trying to fix any of the causes of the problems they deal with.

Then why do they have Padawans? I could buy the "family is bad for jedi" argument if the Jedi didn't mandate adopting a child for their members. If they want to help the galaxy a good step might be understanding it and it's people, their wants and thoughts, but they don't.

Anakin was isolated from everyone and had a great pressure placed upon him by the Jedi council who offered no support when he asked for it. Anakin was used by people who didn't care about him as anything other than a tool (aside from Obi-wan, why he had to not be there when Palpatine made his move). The Jedi don't see their members as people but servants to be used 'for the greater good' no matter how much lesser evil that requires. After Anakin saved Palpatine he was as good as dead to the order and he knew it, that he knew it shows he did not think the Jedi were forgiving (something he is proved right in, though it does not excuse his actions).

The Jedi aren't blameless for their fall.

 

@AusStig There’s really no point in continuing this discussion since you fundamentally misunderstand the no attachment rule. We’d just be going around in circles.

 

No one has been able to say why there is a difference between a blood family and adoption. I could get a no attachment rule if it was actually enforced. If the jedi said "no one will have attachment, communal teaching for all". That would make sense.

But why do they say "blood family = bad, adopted family = good" Padawans are taken at 12ish and often stay with the one master for upwards of 10 years. Why is that considered "not attachment", But if you marry someone it's "attachment".

What is the difference?

 

All right one more time.

A Padawan is a student not an adopted child no matter how much you want to repeat that. A Padawan is a part of the Order and their training will help to continue the Order after the Master is gone. Without Masters and apprentices the Order would cease to exist. Of course Masters and their Padawans often become very close and there’s nothing in the Jedi handbook that says you can’t have close relationships. But a Jedi is required to dedicate their entire lives to the Order and training Padawans to continue the Order’s existence is a part of that whereas a marriage or a child is a responsibility for a Jedi that is separate from the Jedi Order. It’s a responsibility that a Jedi may put above their duty to the Force and to the Order. Again being a Jedi isn’t a 9 to 5 job. It isn’t easy. You have to commit yourself fully to it which is what Anakin wasn’t able to do and we see the consequences.

 

What training has people paired up with a single teacher for 10 years. Heck even Catholic priests don't have training like that, it is all class based (and they enter it older). Ok that is the purpose of the training but it doesn't change the nature of the relationship. One that is more familial than not. Except for the part about non-attachment, attachment being a close emotional bond.

Why is it seperate from the Order? Why can't they marry within the order and make more Jedi younglings, that would help keep the order going as much as apprentices do.

A Jedi may also put their padawan or master above the order as well, that isn't exclusive for marriage and children.

Lots of people without 9 to 5 jobs get married, heck even Orthodox priests have been getting married since day dot, heck all Anglican clergy can be married. Are you saying that their devotion is less than catholic ones?


I understand the thinking that love is the death of duty. But the Jedi on hand say that, but on the other force people to form close relationships. The line seems to be "because we say so", if the jedi want to remove attachment then they should teach all padawans in classes until they are knighted. If not then they should let Jedi marry, at least within the order. As the PT Jedi stand they are having it both ways, encouraging attachment on one hand and denying it on the other.

They need to do something better.

 

Whatever. I literally don’t care anymore.

 

You know who else didn’t care?

The Jedi Order about Anakin.

 

I really can’t stand you.