Lit Was Daala more competent than Thrawn?

IMO, Daala's ending up as leader of the galaxy had nothing to do with her competence, but with Troy Denning's authorial choices.

 

Hmm...

I guess in a weird way one could say that Daala had the longest lasting impact given that she reunified the Empire and thus the Imperial Remnant was born, the Remnant that in the long run would become the Fel Empire. Of course is that a sign of her own personal competence or just how her actions impacted the galaxy in later years.

I wanna say at the end of the day in the moment though Thrawn, he almost won and could have won had the Noghri not betrayed him as well as a few bad decisions in Last Command.

 

Continuing a point from the other thread (which went off-topic, so I've brought the topic here):

The description here:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Obroa-skai_information_raid
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Scout_ship_(TIE_model)

sounds exactly like what you're asking for - a commando raid with TIE scouts, not a full-scale invasion.

It's all something that's not out of the ordinary in Star Wars warfare. Even the Rebels launched information raids.

Vision of the Future

"Well, General. Comments?"
Wedge shook his head. "I was on an information raid once, back when we were trying to get data on Grand Admiral Makati out of the Boudolayz library," he said. "I think the bit-pushers estimated afterward that we were about eighty percent successful. And that was Boudolayz, not Yaga Minor."
"Yes, I've read the reports on that raid," Bel Iblis said, stroking his mustache thoughtfully. "This is definitely not going to be easy."

The "Empire of the Hand" is also something that was "handed to a successor/deputy - and continued to function" - it didn't fall apart the way Thrawn's coalition in Known Space did.

Thrawn's ability to create a state and pick a capable successor to keep things going (Parck in this case) is at least on a similar level to Daala's, when she created the Imperial Remnant and picked Pellaeon to keep it going.


The "Felpire" may owe as much if not more, to the Empire of the Hand in the Unknown Regions, as it does to the Imperial Remnant in Known Space. Jagged Fel was born and trained in the Empire of the Hand after all.

 

Yes it did. It broke up before NJO. We learn that in NJO.

As to your question. YES no question. She is able to forge a united Empire and surive for decades. She ends up as leader of the galaxy.

I would say Thrawns perceived competence has less to do with anything he did and with Zahn's authorial choices to have people think he was something special.

The Felpire comes from the Empire that Daala forged. It is based on those 8 sectors of the IR, it is not based on the EoH in any way shape or form. Jagged also lived with the Chiss not the EoH.

@Jid123Sheeve

You are mostly right, except for this.

No he couldn't. He had lost his clones and without them he had no way to compete with the NR. He had already lost the war by the time that battle was fought, even IF he won (which I don't think is likely) he had nothing to fight with. His lose access to the other warlords was fragile and the NR was a lot bigger than his forces. He might win ever battle he fought but the NR would beat his other forces, just like Napoleon.

 

And it's intact in Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse Ascension. The "broke up" bit was a cover story.

Sorry, Ascension, not Apocalypse.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_of_the_Hand

Despite their absence in the years following the Yuuzhan Vong War, the Empire of the Hand had ultimately survived, far from the notice of the galaxy at large. Although rumors persisted that the Hand had either collapsed or been absorbed by the Chiss Ascendancy, Jagged Fel discovered that the Hand was still an active state. It is unknown who was in command of the Hand at this point. As Head of State of the Imperial Remnant, Fel kept the secret of the Hand's survival to himself for security purposes.

The Empire of the Hand is full of Chiss soldiers. Jag himself was an Empire of the Hand soldier. Though it's possible that he spent a lot of his early life in the Ascendancy itself.

Concerning connections between the Felpire and the Empire of the Hand - Thrawn refounded the 501st as a new unit, incorporating alien soldiers (Choices of One, Survivor's Quest). And it's in Legacy, still incorporating alien soldiers. A hint that Jagged brought Empire of the Hand stuff into what would become the Felpire, and it survived for the next 100 years.

 

Lies. More likely it broke up and then something was reformed after the war by Jagged.

No he was a CHISS soldier. He served in their forces in NJO, his family lived in the capital world of the Chiss ascendency. They know their way around.

Jagged was exiled from the CHISS nation, not the EoH. Nothing outside of some ships showing up in an aweful book, give any hint of the EoH existing during or after NJO.

Daala brought in aliens into the Empire. All Jagged has to do is keep that going rather than importing stuff from outside the Empire.

You are really reaching to try to make EoH relevant.

 

Thrawn brought aliens into the Stormtrooper Corps in the Empire of the Hand long before any of Daala's reforms.

Chak Fel was specifically Empire of the Hand, not Chiss Ascendancy. Soontir Fel was specifically Empire of the Hand, but allied to the Chiss Ascendancy. Seems logical that Jag Fel was an Empire of the Hand soldier too, and Wookieepedia specifically says so:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jagged_Fel

Jagged Fel was raised in the Unknown Regions among the strict and dutiful Chiss of the Empire of the Hand. Fel entered a Chiss military academy in his very early teens. By age eighteen, had attained the rank of colonel and commanded of three squadrons of Clawcraft.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_Spike

Force Spike was the designation of a three-squadron wing of Chiss Clawcraft from Grand Admiral Thrawn's Household Phalanx. In the first months of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, Baron Fel deployed them in support of New Republic forces, under the command of his son Jag.

And you are really reaching to deemphasis it, despite Legends material contradicting you.

 

You mean chiss?

But even if he did do that, he didn't do in the Empire itself.

See this is what I am talking about, people trying to down play Daala's actions and give all the credit to Thrawn.

Then why was he part of the Chiss expansionary defence forces in NJO? Why is he serving with them and under their command? Why is he exiled from the Chiss government? Why is his family living on the Chiss capital? Why is there no mention of the EoH before the last book of FotJ?

Do you have any primiary sources? As in not wookeepedia, which has issues in the reporting of facts.

No you are trying to say something that is contridicted by legends just to downplay Daala and play up Thrawn in a very roundabout way. it's a reach. If you only argument is "The Empire of the Hand is something and it made Jagged everything he is and then he changed the empire" then I see no point talking with you, as that line of reasoning "people are only made by the place they grow up" is not something I agree with.

 

Wasn't that only in the Dark Nest Trilogy - 5 years after NJO? Or was it in Force Heretic that Soontir goes from being Empire of the Hand to Chiss Ascendancy?

Either way, I believe it was unambiguous that, in Dark Tide, Jagged and Soontir were both Empire of the Hand.

"Grand Admiral Thrawn set great store by studying the art of a culture as a key to understanding it. I don't know what he would make of the Yuuzhan Vong, but the few Chiss that came in from the Unknown Regions took to fighting them very eagerly."
"Yes, the Chiss in their clawcraft." Kre'fey smoothed fur at the back of his neck. "You can rest assured that Coruscant did not like hearing that there was a whole contingent of Thrawn's people lurking out there. I'm sure many of them fear you'll use the Chiss to carve a new Empire from the New Republic."
The human admiral shrugged. "I might have, had I known they were there, but I was not privy to all of Thrawn's plans. When we issued a recall to all Imperial agents and troops, no matter where they were, this contingent showed up with Baron Fel's compliments, and led by his son."

Which is why Fey'lya jumps to conclusions about him being xenophobic:

Fel shook his head. "Where I come from-"
Borsk Fey'lya cut him off. "Where you come from is an archaeo-Imperial community. Grand Admiral Thrawn gathered his most staunch and reactionary followers and set them up like a pocket of infection. You've festered out there, hating every moment we have been in control of what was once your empire. You've inherited the attitudes that oppressed us for ages, and now, here you are, ready to resume control, all under the guise of helping us."

and Fel shoots them down, while still claiming to be an Imperial:

"Where I come from, Chief Fey'lya, I am in the minority. I am the alien. If you remember anything from the history of your precious Rebellion, it is that Thrawn was uncompromising, and that is a trait of his people. I was raised among them, raised with them, judged by their standards. I met those standards. I exceeded those standards."
He took a step forward and pointed at the Chiss men and women who had accompanied him. "I won command of my squadron. These people competed to join that squadron. They wanted to fly with me, not because I am a man or because I am an Imperial, but because I am a superior pilot and leader.

Nope - I mean the people the Hand of Judgement group thought would make good stormtroopers in Choices of One, and also the alien stormtrooper in Survivor's Quest, who was neither human nor Chiss.

 

Force Heretic has the Fels living in Chiss space. They also have Jagged serving in the Chiss forces. And Unifying Force has him becoming an ambassador to the GA from the Chiss.

In my version it is ambiguous. There are allusions to his origins, but he doesn't outright say where he is from, not by name at any rate.

Either way, while this might be a lasting legacy of Thrawn (even though brining in aliens goes against Thrawns characterisation of EXTREME racism in TTT), assuming it is real (and not something the Chiss did to create a buffer state).

I don't think it is as good as Daala. She reformed the Empire, then she was able to step down peacefully and appoint a successor. She then went on to fight and escape death, even forming her own group, which helped in the Vong war, and 2nd Civil war, ended up as ruler of the galaxy, got couped, escaped, went to the empire, had an election, lost and then.....?

While Thrawn got killed by his body guard and then was dead, officially.

Edit: Your quoted section is still ambigious. It does not state "Empire of the Hand", as I said it alludes to it, strongly, but it does not outright state it. Also Borsk is mostly right in his view on Jagged, at this point Jagged is a racist, he just hides it.

 

Can we just blame all the writers not understanding Zahn's intent for the Empire of the Hand and mistaking them for the Chiss Ascendancy?

 

Thrawn makes a big deal out of how different alien species have different psychological strengths and weaknesses (which he can identify through their art).

He never says these alien species are inferior to humans in every way, or inferior to Chiss - only different.

As someone who was "brought in" himself, it makes perfect sense that he would do the same with others.

"You accuse me of xenophobia, but you ignored the fact that I greeted my host, an Ithorian, and immediately greeted Admiral Kre'fey, a Bothan. You saw what you wanted to see."

The name "Empire of the Hand" was not even invented until Survivor's Quest - after the NJO.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_of_the_Hand

Appearances

• Survivor's Quest (First identified as Empire of the Hand)

 

You do know what he does is called right? It's called racial profiling.

His WHOLE process is racism. The idea that you can apply blanket statements to an ENTIRE people without any concern for individual experiences or differences is racist. To think that 'others' are all the same is racism.

His treatment of them is as inferiors. That is part of what makes the Noghri betray so effective, he never considers them as capable of doing that, he puts them in a box and thinks they will stay there, they are beneath his thoughts.

Just because he isn't Human doesn't mean he can't be racist.
I mean look at the LA riots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Ethnic_tensions)

Just because he was 'brought-in' doesn't mean he is open minded.

 

We know he tailors his approach to individual experiences as well - obtaining artwork actually created by Ackbar personally, rather than relying entirely on "generic Mon Calamari artwork".

 

As soon as I saw this thread, and the participants therein, I knew this was going to become a prolonged and ugly conflict.

 

I'm willing to concede that some of the criticisms of Thrawn are valid, and that Daala did achieve some things.

 

"I'm not racist, but" is a common refrain. Does not change he refused to shake hands with a Quaren or Sullestan. Jagged like most racists likely has 'layers' of being racist.

So? Hand of Thrawn was written after Darksaber, but you still say Thrawn brought aliens in before Daala.

It doesn't change the ambiguous nature of the description in Dark Tide.

yes, he does that (how lucky he is to have his enemies make art ) AFTER making sweeping judgements over 2 entire species.
He might just be less racist against Mon Cal or humans.

Daala is not as good a tactical officer as Thrawn (who has some novel ideas), but his reputation is over blown. And for survival and making the Empire less horrible Daala has it hands down. She lay the foundations that allowed the Sith to take over the galaxy in Legacy.

 

I think even Thrawn knew that his campaign wasn't over yet. In fact, I believe he mentioned to Pellaeon that their gains weren't all that solid yet and that was before his death by Rukh and the defeat at Bilbringi.

 

Or you can take him at his word and accept he refused to shake hands with a whole bunch of politicians because they were politicians.

He completely bypassed the Imperial Remnant's Moffs, too.

 

So is your argument is that he can't be racist because he doesn't think he is?
Is discrimination ok if you base it on job? I will say he isn't racist if you agree it is discrimination.

 

I'll agree that in Star Wars, some "speciesist discrimination" is present - but it's pretty universal, with even unambiguous good guys like Leia and Mon Mothma using phrases like "walking carpet" or "Rodian in Ewok's clothing."

It might be a little questionable, but I wouldn't say it's morally wrong for there to be, for example, no Gamorrean fighter pilots besides Piggy, who was modified.

Some job-based discrimination is present too - but even Obi-Wan has it, in the case of politicians.

Dark Tide:
"We are a Chiss House phalanx, on loan to the New Republic by my father, General Baron Soontir Fel."

Vision of the Future:
"And you are? You specifically, I mean?"
Stent drew himself up straighter. "We are Syndic Mitth'raw'nuruodo's Household Phalanx," he said, and there was no mistaking the pride in his tone. "We live only to serve him. And through him to serve the Chiss."
"Whether they want your help or not, I guess," Mara said, noting the alien's use of the present tense. There it was again: the assumption or belief that Thrawn wasn't dead. Could they be that out of touch? "Do they even know you're out here?"
"They know the forces of the Empire are out here," Parck said. "And while the ruling families pretend they don't know Stent and his unit are working with us, the average Chiss does in fact know. We have a steady flow of young Chiss arriving at our various bases and garrisons to enlist in our fight."
...
Mara kept her face expressionless. Baron Soontir Fel. Once a legendary TIE fighter pilot, later turning his back on the Empire to become a member of Rogue Squadron, he had vanished years ago into a trap set by Imperial Intelligence Director Isard and never been heard of again. The general assumption had been that Isard had had him summarily executed for treason.
Yet here he was, apparently once again flying with Imperial forces. And a general, yet. "General Fel," she nodded acknowledgment. "Do I take it from the admiral's tone that I'm supposed to be impressed?"
The young Fel, she suspected, would have taken instant offense at that. But this older version merely favored her with a faint smile. "There's no time for pride out here, Jade," he said gravely. "Once you've joined us, you'll understand."

From the context it's pretty clear that Zahn meant Thrawn's Household Phalanx to be considered "Imperial forces" and Stackpole meant that Jag was a member of that very same Phalanx, being on good terms with Zahn and the two consulting with each other on the uses of the other's material.

It is, IMO, enough for me, especially the way Chak Fel was used in Survivor's Quest.

 

Jagged Fel is a soldier, not a politician (until 41 ABY anyway), and don't forget that Soontir Fel got burnt by politicians, of which Ysanne Isard and Sate Pestage were. No doubt, Davin, Chak, himself, Cherith, Wynssa and Cem got the same lesson. Don't trust a politician.

 

And even sympathetic characters like PT Obi-Wan say similar things "She's a politician - they're not to be trusted".

Prejudice against politicians has a long history, not just in sci-fi. And I'm not going to condemn a character for having it.

 

Given that Jag was raised by an Imperial and flew with the Chiss, I think he was going to have some xenocentric views (the Chiss weren't known for being egalitarian either, although not as brutal as the High Human Imperials).

But even though it was his brother in Survivor's Quest, he probably would have interacted with those stormtroopers, which some of which were non-human and he did fly with the Chiss.

Is it possible he could have been more accepting of non humans as a whole? Perhaps, but neither is he the vicious racist that various Imperials were either.

 

Yup. Chak and Davin were born before Fel's capture by Isard and his being sent out to the Empire of the Hand by Thrawn, but Jag was born after. While Soontir had xenocentric views, it was his seeing Thrawn in action at Derra IV that shot a hole in those views. Combined with his serving with Rogue Squadron, I doubt very much that Soontir's views were still xenocentric by the time he settled on Niruaun, or that he passed any on to Jag himself.

Jag's page explicitly states he was born on Niruaun in 7 ABY. And since his younger sister was raised first on Niruaun and then on Csilla, that would suggest Jag was raised on Niruaun with her.

I believe the implication here:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wynssa_Fel

All her older siblings went into the military, leaving Fel at home with Cem. Among the militaristic Imperials and Chiss, Fel developed a military outlook herself, seeing battle against threats to peace as a duty. Fel was taught to pilot, presumably by her father, and liked to take out the family yacht Starflare, though Cem was frequently at the controls.[2] Fel suffered the loss of her siblings early in her life, with Davin dying by 19 ABY and Cherith by 25 ABY.[3][6] In 25 ABY, Jagged was sent back to the known regions of the galaxy to aid the New Republic in the Yuuzhan Vong War.[3] Through it all, Fel remained at home with her mother and Cem, and by 28 ABY the Empire of the Hand had ceased to exist as a unit, with the Fels joining the Chiss Ascendancy. Fel and her family moved to Csilla, the Chiss capital, and continued life there. Fel spent much time in the Expeditionary Library, becoming familiar with much of the material stored therein.[2]

is that the move to Csilla took place between 25 ABY and 28 ABY, when the Empire of the Hand was claimed to have "ceased to exist as a military unit".