Saga Do the Sequels increase or decrease the value of the saga to you?

@LedReader I hear you and agree with a good deal of what you are saying. Especially this:

This is what I am arguing. I can understand if fans don't like how the Emperor's return was handled in TROS or Dark Empire. I can understand that ideas generated/approved by George Lucas don't necessarily make them good/bad. I just think it's quite hyperbolic to state that idea Palpatine's return tarnishes the OT heroes legacy. The OT heroes legacy was never established in the films as killing The Emperor or eradicating the Empire.

It's been while, but Dark Empire basically resets the conflict to Empire vs Rebellion as the resurgent Empire retakes Coruscant. Luke joins the Dark Side, serves the Emperor, etc. All of this only (6?) years after ROTJ.

 

The eradication of the Empire was most definitely part of the OT legacy, and saying otherwise is just revisionist history.

The killing of the Emperor was Anakin’s legacy, but now that, along with everyone else’s accomplishments, have been given to Rey.

 

Agreed.

I think you may the one putting forth revisionist history. In what post ROTJ galaxy has the Empire ever been eradicated? In both old and new canon the Empire has remnants vying for power.

Anakin's legacy was not killing The Emperor...it was mainly about saving his son. You make it sound like Star Wars characters get trophies whenever they kill a character. Is Anakin "less cool" or diminished as a character because the Emperor survived*? I certainly don't think so.

* I may be in the minority here, but I find the Emperor surviving his ROTJ fate to be more believable than Darth Maul surviving his. Maul's death is fairly graphic for a SW film. Even as a kid, I thought that an evil galactic wizard falling down a pit seemed vague and open ended. SW is in the tradition the old serial/cliffhanger films/comic books. If villains die.. but there is no body.. the villain almost always comes back eventually.

 

I’ll say this for the ST, it revitalized my interest in Star Wars. I was a pretty casual Star Wars fan prior to 2015, I liked the original trilogy and that was about it. After watching the ST, I watched all of clone wars and rebels, started playing KOTOR, read a bunch of the novels and comics, and I even re-watched the prequels and found a whole new appreciation for them.

 

Can the mods do something about this? This user has blamed the person who made this thread for creating a trap a few times now, when this is simply not true. There is no trap in the question of the thread, it is phrased with a poll question where people can respond what they want. It's quite exhausting to see the same false accusation over and over again.

Maybe he is. As everyone knows, if a person makes a claim, they must prove the claim. Veitch probably wants their 15 minutes of fame by saying that. Unless they provide proof, their words are irrelevant.

George Lucas did NOT come up with the idea of cloning Palpatine, and has even gone to say that he would NEVER use that in his story, and that it's not his story. Can you please not fill this thread with inaccuracies and false claims? We have enough of that as it is. I understand you are bothered by people who actually think George Lucas, the Maker, is the best storyteller when it comes to anything and everything Star Wars, but that doesn't mean we are going to change history so that you find ways to blame him.

One more time, as a review, cause practice makes perfect:

It was never G-canon, that's another lie. The Expanded Universe was C-canon, which is not at the same level as the movies and the animated TV shows. How many times does Lucas have to explain this to people before they can twist his words and use them for their own false argument?

This is true. What the people who use Dark Empire as an argument either to support the sequels or to criticize (yet again) George Lucas somehow don't tell you, is that Luke Skywalker pretended to join the Emperor, so that he can actually finish him off once and for all, and had never fallen to the dark side truly. Which as silly as it might sound, definitely makes more sense than him sulking on an island.

 

Yikes. Quite an assumption to make.

This is problematic. You quote Lucas quite a bit. Do we need proof of his claims? Are his words about the creative process irrelevant until he does so? Or, is it just a double standard on your part? Why bother quoting anyone if we just assume they are being dishonest?

You realize these quotes are dated, right?

They reflect Lucas's mindset after he finished Revenge of the Sith. You can tell because he is talking about how the saga was always meant to be "the Tragedy of Darth Vader." This wasn't always the case. Lucas was being a bit revisionist with his own history on this. As we know, Lucas used to refer to the larger story as "The Adventures of Luke Skywalker." Lucas revised/shifted/amended this idea/claim with the creation of the PT.

We love him, but we all know that Lucas often changed his mind and contradicted previous statements/stories about his ideas, plans, mindset in regards to Star Wars.

Let's Examine:

"In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted."

The phrase "pretty much" is an adverb. It means that Lucas didn't exactly let authors do "whatever they wanted." We know this. There is documented proof of how the EU/Lucas relationship/creative process worked.

We know that EU authors couldn't bring back or kill off Lucas's characters without direct his approval. We also know Lucas wouldn't let Veitch bring back Vader's costume/imposter. So it's evident that Lucas wasn't as hands off with the EU as he claims, or as you are insinuating.

"I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX."

Hmm. This is no longer true. Evidence that, when it comes to the SW story/franchise/galaxy, Lucas (GASP!) sometimes changes his mind.

"That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything."

Lucas's mind there IS NO Story after Episode 6. He's saying the story is over in his mind. The end.

"...And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Again, this is Lucas saying that he had/there is no story after Episode 6. None of these happen because, in Lucas's mind, nothing happens at all after ROTJ.

As I stated earlier, I am not saying that a cloned Emperor is what Lucas would have done. According to Lucas, he wouldn't have done anything. As he said, he had no story. I'm just saying he wasn't opposed to someone else taking the story in that direction. Otherwise, it would not have been allowed.

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

"I don't get too involved with the (EU) universe" is NOT the same as having no involvement.

Again, no one is saying that Lucas was actively writing/producing EU content. However, it is an established fact that you had to get Lucas's explicit approval to kill off/resurrect his characters. Ego, he was involved to a certain extent with the goings on of the ancillary Star Wars materials.

 

Why would I need proof of Lucas quoting his own intentions? And how is this a double standard? A double standard would be if Lucas had made claims about Veitch's intentions, and I went on to say that I believe Lucas about what Veitch was going to do, but I do not believe Veitch about what Lucas was going to do.

I believe Lucas about what he approved and not approved, and about what he would have done.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Lucas would have brought back Palpatine, no matter how hard you try to dispute this.

Lucas can do what he wants with his story. It's his story. And he has the right to change his mind about how the story should better evolve. If anything, I commend him for that. It shows a creator who evolves and adapts and finds the best way to tell his story. It's not called "being a revisionist with his own history", which sounds as if he was responsible for committing war crimes or something.... It's called being an innovative creator for 4 decades.

"But" implies that this is a negative trait/habit of his. It is a positive. I would hope that he changes his mind about how his stories should go until the day he dies. This is what legendary storytellers do. Tolkien did the same. George Martin does the same. EVERYONE does the same. It's not a contradiction, it's called being open minded and mature enough to be able to change your story if you want to and if it feels better when you change it.

I know what the phrase means, it's not exactly Graduate English Literature level. It means that he pretty much let them do what they wanted, and didn't care much for what they did as long as they kept the era that he was focused on intact. So bringing back Palpatine in a story after the movies, did not affect much his plans at the time, and he let them do it, clarifying a million times that it would only be C-canon, therefore not canon.

I did not insinuate anything, I provided quotes which clearly show what Lucas' feelings about the matter was.

One of his many traits. Whether it's no longer true or not, is immaterial. What matters, is that every time Lucas has been asked about Palpatine's return, he has clarified that this would never be the story he wanted to tell. His 3 different drafts for an attempt at a sequel trilogy story, reflect that. In one of them, Darth Maul is the main villain. In the other one, Darth Talon is the main villain. In other drafts, he focuses on different threats to the galaxy, none of which is an Emperor Clone.

When eventually George Lucas gets interviewed about his opinion on the sequels and their story, if he has even watched Episode IX (he may actually not have), then you will see that his opinion on the matter is most definitely that he does not approve Palpatine's return. Any procedural "ok" he may have given to Expanded Universe novels authors to bring back Palpatine in the Dark Empire novels/comics in the early 1990s so that only maybe 3% of all Star Wars fans read them, is the weakest thing I have ever heard, and most certainly does not present an argument either in favor of the Sequels plot, or against Lucas' ideas and storylines. In fact, the thought of Palpatine being cloned in some obscure novels and comics, has probably occupied his brain less than it occupies sequel apologists in this thread.

 

@DarthFixxxer

Once again, you and I are quickly spiraling into the minutiae of how we converse, rather than focusing on the what we are talking about. I apologize for my part in this as it takes two to tango. I suspect we are a dyad in the Force.

In any event, I don't really want to get into a back and forth about semantics like what constitutes a double standard, an adverb, or Lucas's conflicting words about the creation/history behind the development of the SW universe. I will leave our conversation with this...

I don't, for one minute, think George Lucas would have brought back Palpatine in his post ROTJ storyline.

This is not, nor has it ever been, my argument.

My argument:

Though likely not where he would have taken his own ST, George Lucas did approve many of the elements we saw in the ST decades before in the EU. As it was canon, Lucas did have creative control over the EU. Authors did not have cart blanche. When it came to Lucas's characters, authors had to seek out Lucas's approval for certain story elements, plot lines, etc. This is a fact.

Specifically, George Lucas had to approve a resurrected Emperor and resurgent Empire before Dark Empire could be written/published. So, while not the direction he'd have gone...Lucas didn't seem to be as horrified about these elements as some fans seem to be.

I'm not saying GL liked it, but he didn't seem to hate it either....otherwise, why give it the green light? He put a stop to lots of smaller ideas that didn't jive with his saga sensibilities.

In any event, thanks for the chat.

 

Well, for more than 25 years no fans were horrified about these elements being used, the way that they were used, in a story set in a comic series that was published in 1991 and 1992. In fact, the vast majority of fans don't even know of their existence, or even if they know them, they have not read them. The gravity of a fan-fiction level story told in some comics that can easily be considered as "parallel universe" stories (which is exactly how George Lucas considers them, based on his words, time and again), is minimal.

Especially when compared to the story presented by a multi-billion dollar company which promotes it as the new official canon, presented in blockbuster films. But even so, we can agree then that George Lucas was at best ok with those stories published as a minimal significance and influence comic book, while he would never permit anyone in LFL to go that direction if he had any creative control on the sequels. Which means, that the fans are 100% perfectly justified in being horrified by Palpatine's revival in TROS, and they area also completely justified in thinking that Palpatine's return diminishes the original 6 movies and decreases the value of the saga. Which is the topic in discussion.

Also, this is simply not true. George Lucas did not approve any of the ST story elements, because (A) he was never asked about any of it after he sold the company and (B) his ideas, which were vastly different in any and every way, got thrown in the trash, resulting in him being angry at the people he sold the company to, and calling them "white slavers", to quote him verbatim.

 

Yes. Star Wars novels/comics and other ancillary materials have less of cultural impact/imprint than the films. Blockbuster books often don't have the same impact as blockbuster movies. We know this. If fans want to be more opposed to Palpatine coming back in films versus comics because it's "more canon" that's fine. This doesn't change the fact that Lucas (who was discerning about the books/EU) was cool with Palpatine being brought back. Even when it came to "less popular" mediums, Lucas gave a crap about the legacy of his characters.

Also, you are underselling the impact/influence/importance of Dark Empire and Heir to the Empire. These weren't niche projects for the die hards. These two were a one two punch that reignited Star Wars in pop culture. They were both instant best sellers, and fans that had been starving for Star Wars ate them up ravenously.

I think it's important to note that Star Wars was basically dead as a brand in the late 80's. It was the, somewhat surprising, popularity/success of these two works that caused Lucas to realize that there still was a HUGE audience for Star Wars. That realization, combined with the early 90's CGI tech ILM was pioneering, is also what led Lucas to begin work on the PT and the Special Editions.

Lastly, I am sorry for being unclear. I am not saying that Lucas approved ST elements. I am saying that a few Lucas approved EU ideas/elements made their way into the ST.

 

Its been known and proven that several elements of Lucas' ST treatments made into the final product. Stating otherwise is false.

Revisionist history?! We're talking about a fictional universe where stories before and after the OT are added all the time, changing the view and setting of the franchise as whole. And: revisionist history would mean somebody here claiming Ep VI didnt happen. No one ever did that. The empire is defeated in Jedi, the fight goes on, in Legends and Canon. And if you're looking at the saga as a whole it makes perfect sense to have the First Order there, a revisionistic (!!) militia group which was secretly built up from the guy who started a trade conflict over 30 years prior to stay in power and whos army wore white amor from day one (Ep II). The First Order is more like the ISIS of our time then Nazi Germany (which was the Empire).

Concerning Rey and killing the Emperor: Anakins legacy isnt taken from him at all: Palps body is killed off in Ep VI. There is balance because the Dark side is defeated. That doesnt mean it cant come back. Anakin even says in Ep IX to Rey "bring back Balance as I once did!" Its even referenced in the movie itself.

 

Absolutely zero elements of Lucas' ST treatments other than a young new female force user, made it into the actual ST, and no such claim has been proven. Especially when we talk about the legacy characters of the OT.

 

Christian Alzmann explains how the recluse/hermit Luke Skywalker (compared to Col. Kurtz- the antagonist of Apocalypse Now) was Lucas's idea:

"My first image I made for Star Wars : The Force Awakens. This was January of 2013. Luke was being described as a Col. Kurtz type hiding from the world in a cave. I couldn’t believe I was getting to make this image and I got a George “Fabulouso” on it to boot."

 

Yeah. The story on the whole is very different from what Lucas and Arndt had come up with, but there are a few elements baked into it. Luke hiding away on a planet with an ancient Jedi temple is one of them, Leia's and Han's child turning to the dark side is another. Someone searching for a relic of some kind in the ruins of the second Death Star is also an early idea (though concept art reveals that the throne room was envisioned as completely submerged in water and Mark Hamill has even said that he'd been told he'd get to scuba dive).
These ideas were obviously shifted around, recontextualized and altered in a number of ways, but yeah, they were used.

 

ISIS did not form out of the remnants of the Nazis, so that’s not a comparison that makes any sense.

Anyway, Anakin saying “bring balance to the force as I did” is just an insultingly written line that attempts to mitigate the fact that Rey is taking Anakin’s legacy. He literally did not bring balance if Palpatine survived and the New Empire took over.

Somehow, I don’t think George Lucas’ ideas that were in the ST were implemented the way he would go about doing it. Especially regarding Luke.

 

Meh. At worst, it's a lazy retcon of a lazy retcon. Anakin dumping the Emperor into the reactor was all about (and still is) about saving his son, Luke.
With the PT it got retconned (changed) to Anakin fulfilling a prophecy of destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the Force. Now, with the ST, it has been retconned/changed slightly... again. Big whoop.

Agreed. Maybe George Lucas should not have sold out to Disney. If you want a job done right, do it yourself and all that....

 

The longest reach in these forums, I have responded to this so many times that I can't even bother to respond again. This is hearsay at best, awful lies at worst.
Also, the character Mark Hamill plays in The Last Jedi, is absolutely nothing like that. Which was not even a Lucas idea to begin with.

Officially confirmed George Lucas ideas (aka direct quotes and not wishful thinking) are the following:

- Lucas would explore the microbial world and explain how the midichlorians function a little bit more, connecting that to the ancient Whills.
- He would have Darth Talon and Darth Maul as antagonists
- He would have a young female lead in the new movies (they kept that)
- Leia would prove to be as important as Luke Skywalker, and an active Jedi, not a failed one
- The ST would be something completely new, unlike the originals, and unlike the prequels, and George Lucas would explore new themes on top of the already existing galaxy and the themes explored before
- Palpatine would not return
- Luke Skywalker would search for ancient Jedi secrets

Thinking that the ST we got is even remotely close to what Lucas would have done, and that some of the ideas in the ST originated from George Lucas, is quite delusional.

 

Anakin killing off Palpatine meant many things, but it was first and foremost about saving Luke and showing that Anakin still had good in him. The PT didn't retcon that. It added the prophecy, but that didn't at all take away from the emotional character-changing reasons Anakin did what he did, or the impact his decisions had on Luke, the Skywalker family, the Jedi, and whole galaxy at large.

This was a unique role and victory for Anakin on many levels. So just handing it off to Rey, who's put on a pedestal enough as it is, and has no personal connection to Palpatine or the Sith (and no, just finding out that she's his "granddaughter" isn't enough), is much, much more of a retcon, and a horrible one.

It's worse because there was no reason for it. They could've given Rey another baddie to triumph over with the utmost of ease, and not touch Anakin's legacy or the Chosen One stuff at all. There was no need for Palpatine to come back. To me the whole thing feels like they intentionally wanted to make Rey look superior to all the Skywalkers in every way.

 

I'm not sure what you are on about here. This is straight a quote and accompanying image from the concept artist that worked with Lucas on preliminary ST ideas. This is straight from his mouth. I literally linked it to his instagram and this info/image/idea is confirmed in The Makings of The Force Awakens/Last Jedi Books. If you don't believe the artist, I don't know what to tell you. Take it up with him?


You keep saying that none of the ST ideas were from Lucas, we have artists that worked with him and official books documenting that some of the ST ideas did, in fact, come from Lucas.


Also, I noticed you posted a long list of things without sourcing them. Why is that?

 

Where are all of these ideas (I like the plural even though you posted only one of those)?

This claim from the artist doesn't prove that anything that ended up in the ST is an idea by George Lucas. It is a piece of concept art, which does not resemble what ended up in the movie at all, and the character we saw in TLJ has zero in common with Colonel Kurtz? Therefore, no GL element in TLJ.

I can't be bothered. The interviews are out there. These are known story elements that GL would have included. But also, I am not the one trying to prove false information. I am not invested in proving that the ST we got has absolutely nothing in common with the ST that GL would have given us. I know that for a fact.The truth is that all the people who made the ST a reality, completely disrespected George Lucas and threw out his treatments in the trash.

 

As I said, we have artists that worked with him int official Makings of books documenting that some of the ST ideas did, in fact, come from Lucas. You should check them out.

We'll break it down:

When working on his ideas/concepts for his ST, George Lucas commissioned concept artists to do mockups of Luke whom Lucas described as having become an isolated "Col. Kurtz like" figure. This is verified from the very artists that worked with Lucas. I already provided you a link to an artists stating this.

Have you seen Apocalypse Now? Col. Kurtz is a disillusioned recluse who has cut himself off from society, friends, associates, the world in general, etc.

In the ST, Luke is a disillusioned recluse who has cut himself off from society, friends, associates, the galaxy in general, etc.

As I said, some of this info all comes from the concept artists that worked with Lucas on his ST concepts. This Luke as Kurtz concept (and other ST ideas that Lucas generated) are all detailed in The ST Makings of Books...specifically the books for The Force Awakens and (a bit) in The Last Jedi.

Now, we know that Disney/Lucasfilm didn't use Lucas's treatments/overall story ideas. However, it has been officially documented that some of Lucas's ideas/concepts actually did end up in the ST. Again, you should check out the books for yourself.

That's cool. I am busy too. Do your own research, I guess? I literally gave you the links to sources of and direct quotes from the guy who worked with Lucas on the concept.

If you don't want to back up your stuff...how are we to know you aren't just making things up? You accuse me of this quite a bit even though I provide links to quotes, etc.

I know. Neither am I. @Lulu Mars and @KyleKartan have the same info about the ST and Lucas. They have even detailed/explained some of it in the previous posts.

Yep. I've never argued this. Is this really what you think I am trying to say? Clearly, Lucas's ST would have been different. This doesn't negate the fact that some of Lucas's concepts for his ST made their way into the actual ST.

Yet, you refuse to provide sources to back up/show what you know. Let me help:

I believe most of you info comes from this book. I have just as much reason to believe the info I read in that book as I read in this book.

Contrary to what you seem to think, I am not actually disagreeing, nor disputing, what you are saying are Lucas ideas. Again, they are in this book. Most of Lucas's ideas were scrapped. Yet, some of them made it into the films as (again) is explained here.

As for your bolding text to boldly exclaim certainties. Remember, this was you:

 

Nobody ever said that! I was just making an explaination on how you could compare the Empire to the First Order. The Empire is a galaxy wide regime while the FO is a terror militia which rose to power in several systems of the GFFA through sheer terror and violence.

For you guys everything is insulting. I dont even know who's to insult here. Words like these and "my childhood got raped" are used pretty inflationary and without the context of the words in SW Fandom.

If Palpatine is defeated and stripped of his force powers he brings balance. Harry Potter also defeated Voldemore twice yet the first time Voldemore got exed off still counts as defeat and stripping of his powers. He was gone...until he returned. Doesnt take away Potters legacy and first win over him.

I wont let myself be called a liar or beeing delusional! POINT. Rethink the way you worded your post here. Do your research. And stop calling me a liar or spreading Fake News or anything!

@jaimestarr provided some sources. Thx for that!

 

This thread has been derailed for quite a few pages now. I don't know why anyone thinks they can argue with someone's personal opinion on whether the ST increases or decreases the value of the saga. This isn't the thread to refute people. Can people just stop bickering with each other? These arguments have gone way off target. They're just not relevant to the thread.

 

Are you a mod?