Lit Galactopolitics in the unknown regions Legends discussion

Another thing i wonder about is, on which side were the Grysk, in this case, during the Yuuzhan Vong War and what happened to them after the end of the conflict, when the YV settled on Zonama Sekot?

 

My headcanon is that after the events of KOTOR, the Rakatan Elders started a beach tourism business.

 

Some thoughts:
-I remember there being some implications that the Chiss attacked the Ssvi after their invasion of Bakura, but looking at the map, they are really far from Chiss space. Given how both continuities make it clear the URs are hard to reliably travel, that attack was quite a feat on their part.

-The political situation is an interesting contrast to known space - while there are environmental reasons for it, such as the difficulty of navigation, the Unknown Regions seems more politically unstable than the rest of the galaxy, with the Thrawn books making it sound like mini-empires are rising and falling so often that it is borderline routine, and with plenty of raiding, slaving, and border skirmishing outside of those conquests. I find the force traditions especially interesting, with them mostly being absolutely neutral navigators - which has the advantage of not leading to dark siders causing havoc and taking over everything, but also no jedi helping to keep things peaceful and defeat the worst powers around.
(Though admittedly we have been given a much smaller slice of time of Unknown Region history than the rest of the galaxy, so that does skew things)

-Though it does bug me that the Unknown Regions seems to stay constant in chronological maps. Even acknowledging the travel difficulties, I feel like bits and pieces of it should become known over time as groups from there interact with the wider galaxy. In particular, the Hand of Thrawn heavily implied, if I remember correctly, that Thrawn actually succeeded in mapping most if not all of it, but it is still listed the same in Legacy comics era maps.
On the flip side, I could see stuff being lost over time - like, Acht-to and Illum suggest that the jedi used to have a presence that was all but lost over time, and in both legends and canon the Chiss used to be active in the main galaxy during the sith wars before becoming largely forgotten later on.

I see. Thanks.

Indeed. Given the First Order seems all military and no government, and has a warship as a capital, it is easy to imagine them being the more feudal overlord types. Though, for what it is worth, we do have at least comic that shows them conquering a world directly, though I suppose that says little about how it was governed afterwards.

I headcanon the legends version of the Grysk being mostly defeated off-screen by the Empire of the Hand, only to be Vong'd at last minute by an advanced scout first, like how the Yetha and Ssvi-ruuk got Vong'd later.

XD

I love it!

 

I doubt anybody holds these large territories. The point is the UR are rather localised and no huge space empires. While the reach of species may be as far extent wise, it is not held territory or connected territory as in the regular galaxy, but rather them raiding places merely. Aside these species we also need to account for Mggnal-Mggnal and many other horrors spreading out there. It's more a citystates of singular planets with wilds in between and dangers. The Chiss are a glorious exception. Many others have to rely on the navigator guilds and have no means of permanently keeping up connected territories much.

Given the rather small localised states with possible huge fleets to roam and plunder other worlds (Vagaari, Grysk, Ssi Ruuvi, etc.) the territories in between the major military powers seem to be constantly contested or raided by all parties. Huge puffer zones between their cluster-sized domains at best. Given Astrogator Guilds navigate through hyperspace for most, using the Force, it is likely that like in old times, Forcestrong worlds are the ones better known and reached like in the Rakatan Infinite Empire and in between huge swatchs of unknown inhabited worlds oblivious of their surroundings. Those using slower than hyperspace travel like in ancient times might reach those and slowly expand more continous territory around their home like maybe the Killiks and other more patient folks.

Given some UR factions know Mggnal-Mggnal and do not want to encounter it, the UR also have an ALIEN franchise vibe to it with cultures limiting travel to not get in contact with any horror and by accident bringing it home. While others seek out these horrors to utilize them for war or else and fail bringing doom to themselves and their neighbors.

Between becoming enteched, a Joiner, eaten by black slimey goo, Vongformed with yorik coral enslaved, a fleshsuit for something worse or any other horrific fate out there, some careful avoiding expansion seems wise.

Important GFFA tech they may have gotten or otherwise kept from TOR times aside, most cultures do not have crucial technology. Hyperdrives, shields, tractor beams, etc. most seems new to even the Chiss despite past encounters with them. Despite traders and smugglers from Baatu, Jakku and elsewhere heading into the UR and back out. Technology has been a constant in the UR despite the possibility to obtain it, as well as past experience with it. Why? Maybe because travel is SO BAD that any attempt to reach the other side of the barrier ends up dead usually or worse. Routes to Baatu and Jakku etc. secret and not public knowledge. It seems the horrors specifically are along the UR border positioned to either escape or capture whoever crosses.

As for the Jedi visiting Ilum regulary for the Gathering I suspect they did not take the usual routes or a straight one even but may utilize a wormhole maybe that is stable.



What I want to know more about is, how the Republic under Revan found Lehon and reached into the UR but afterwards never made anything of it rather sealing it off again. Did Zakuul or Vitiate prevent it and push them back secretly making their settlement attempts and research teams fail?

Are the Vong that went into the UR against Ssi Ruuvi and others really surrendering and returning to Zonama Sekot or are there huge volatile Vong holdouts knowing the UR are safe for them as the NR has difficulty to find them and check on them there, which not even the EotH or Chiss might be able to? Imagine a post NJO UR war continuing between the Ssi Ruuvi entechment faction vs. the Vong biotech. With Vong from Zonama Sekot trying to get their brothers to end their warfare, though needing them as well to protect them from Ssi Ruuvi retribution and likewise. Kinda a Vong version of the Ascendancy and the EotH protecting it.


Also what if Zakuul is on the rise again in the UR? Might the One Sith return to some UR holdings aside Exegol and try to recreate what was lost there? Did the Empire of the Hand walk in Zakuuls old shoes, routes and maps when uniting the UR to create order and fight back the horrors? And how do TOR's sentient droids and droid ships from Iokath in the UR possibly tie to later Ssi Ruuvi technology?

 

This always led me to imagine the EOTH as having a long, thin shape. Basically stretching from Nirauan to the doorstep of the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium, and bowed around the rimward edge of the Chiss Ascendancy. Essentially a shield across the Ascendancy and the Empire, keeping out the most dangerous of the Chiss enemies (the Great Wall of the Unknown Regions). Perhaps they discovered a hyperspace lane that would allow them efficient travel across their empire (or built one with S-thread boosters)?

 

1) A few small interstellar nations like the Ssi-ruuk and the Chiss that are more or less up to the standards of the known galaxy, while still being fairly small by GFFA standards.

2) A few nomadic conquerors like the Vagaari that fall under what TV Tropes calls "a horde of alien locusts" that the rest of the UR fears.

3) The ruins and remnants of a few long-dead civilizations, some of whom may have been connected to the "known galaxy."

4) A sprinkling of planets whose populations may or may not have ventured out into space yet but in either case are extremely primitive and easy prey by GFFA standards.

5) Eldritch abominations like the Mnngal-Mnngal, and/or other things like Zonama Sekot that aren't scary but just totally unlike anything "normal."

I think the closest thing to the way I picture the Unknown Regions is Star Trek, but specifically early Star Trek, as in TOS especially in the first season. In that world, space was being charted but still largely unexplored, very weird, and not a little bit scary. You had a couple factions like the Klingons and Romulans that were at the same level as the heroes, but you also kept running into incomprehensibly powerful beings and civilizations, or the ruins of such beings and civilizations, or strange planets that were largely just doing their own things, or other phenomena that weren't even necessarily dangerous but just plain weird... And then, every now and then, you'd bump into some remnant of your own history.

 

I think the Chiss were the most likely suspects but never confirmed: could have been the Empire of the Hand. Sounds more like Thrawn's MO than the Nine Families'.

 

Same. Mind you, I see that long thin shape as slowly fattening at least in some parts as the EOH slowly expands like a colonial power. But the priority was always going to be being the shield between the Empire and the deeper UR.

 

I actually imagine the Empire of the Hand as much smaller, like the area around Nirauan and Esfandia and that's about it, with Nuso Esva's empire being not very far from Nirauan, later getting annexed into Thrawn's empire. Those hundreds of worlds there are no different than the Hapes Consortium having a cluster of 200 worlds within a sector size on the Galaxy map. This leads to it easily being absorbed into the Fel Empire in the future. Similarly, from the map shown, I also feel the Ssi-Ruuvi are too large. I'd liken them to roughly being the size of a Cluster as on the original Modi maps. They were a threat because Palpatine let 'em in, and also because the Western Reaches weren't too well defended at the time of their invasion.

As for Zakuul, I also don't think they controlled all that much. Their main strength was the Eternal Fleet. Remember, the Republic and Sith were made tributaries at gun-point, but they weren't fully annexed into Zakuul. There was no instance of it controlling the entire Galaxy, literally.

 

That's a very good analogy, it makes sense then to see the Chiss as a Federation equivalent(I believe the atlas or guide to warfare says the entire region was under Chiss influence by the time of Legacy?)/

That would be an amazing story in itself, the Chiss defeating the Vaagari, running into the Mnngal-Mnngal, and likely having to contain the threat, and bringing smaller empires to heel or some sort of vassalage like the Ssi-Ruuk.

 

In HoT, it is suggested that the Empire of the Hand is many times larger than the Imperial Remnant (250 sectors for EotH, 8 sectors for IR), and that the two joining forces could be a legitimate threat to the New Republic. Sure, not all sectors are created equal, but the concern about the EotH joining the IR suggests to me a significant lower bound for the size of the EotH.

It is indeed the Atlas that shows a significant Chiss sphere of influence in the Legacy era.

 

I wonder how the Chiss “won” the unknown regions, was it through colonization and careful diplomacy or was it through conquest and simply defeating any contenders?

Interesting to imagine that just to the galactic west of the events of DNT through the Sith imperial war, there could have been a lot of wars, unifications and tenacious diplomacy to unite the unknown regions.

Makes the future of the galaxy interesting as well-assuming Chiss control is not simply loose declarations, the Chiss have basically conquered or otherwise brought into their domain half the galaxy, within a century.

That’s going to shape galactic history going forward in legends for thousands of years to come.

 

Half the galaxy is a strong term for Chiss sphere of influence. Their space is roughly bound by grids E5 to H13. That's closer to 7% of the galaxy. Also, much of that is likely built off what the Empire of the Hand did, so it's more like 150 years. Still, considering they start at about 0.25% of the galaxy, it is quite impressive.

 

I suspect any expansion of the 8-sector Remnant could threaten the NR, especially considering at the time it was mentioned, the NR had many internal issues that could've caused it to collapse. The NR was suffering from internal disarray, while the Remnant, largely thanks to Daala, was more or less centralized under a singular leadership. Add in the EoTH, and a counter-strike into the New Republic could likely break it apart at that time, considering the conflict with the Bothans and Caamas. Now, I doubt this Remnant-EoTH Union could bring back the size of even the Dark Empire or Crimson Empire, but it could probably make a bee-line straight to Coruscant.

 

The implication is that Empire of the Hand territory is that much bigger than Imperial Remnant territory: that the zone of space under EotH control, is nearly 30 times the size of the HoT-era Imperial Remnant.


"But that can't all be Imperial territory," Luke said. "I mean ... it can't."
"Why not?" Mara countered. "Oh, I agree there probably aren't more than a few actual colonies out there. But you can bet there are Imperial garrisons scattered all over the place, plus intel centers and listening posts and probably a few full-blown shipyards. And if I know Thrawn, probably a whole network of alliances with the natives, too."
"But if that's Imperial territory, why hasn't the Empire made any use of it?" Luke argued. "I've seen the data, Mara—they're down to practically nothing over there."
"It's obvious, isn't it?" she said quietly. "They're not using it because they don't know it's there."
For a long minute neither of them spoke.
Luke gazed at the holo, listening to the distant hum of the spiral slideway, the terrible implications of those gently glowing lights tumbling over each other in his mind. There had to be the equivalent of two hundred fifty sectors there—nearly thirty times the Empire's current size.
With thirty times the Empire's number of warships, garrisons, and shipyards? Very possibly. If all those resources were suddenly put at Bastion's disposal...


Now one could fudge it by having it be less densely populated, with a lower ratio of ships to volume of space than the Remnant - but this can only go so far.

 

You're also forgeting that while it might not be big in terms of size, it could contain vast resources. Its very possible that 244Core might be in EoTH space, in-between Nirauan and the rest of the EoTH territories perhaps.

 

Not to mention this is with the state of the Republic in mind. It was during the Caamas Crisis, so a unified Imperial force while it might not have directly been capable of retaking the Galaxy, would still have managed to regain a lot of territory. Probably at least Crimson Empire borders would've been restored, if not retaking some of the Core as well.

I always wondered what class the Chiss SDs were. Were they Imperial donations, so something like the VicStars?

I'd also go with them being Lucrehulks. Presumably the Empire turned them back into freighters after the Clone Wars, and the Killiks might've stolen them off of some shipping company. Maybe they were even ex-Imperial, if they were shipping from the Core to Thrawn's territories, or something like that.

But I've got a headcanon that the Shadow Academy might've been built on the basis of a Lucrehulk, as well.

 

Well analyzed and agreed completely

(well, maybe not that the Chiss are that much of an exception, I recall them being kind of small if one of the bigger powers and more stable states there - and frankly Thrawn's whole thing is because there were plenty of legitimate threats to the Chiss there)

That is a good point. It is a dangerous region of space, and I can see species that survived initial encounters with such things deciding to limit exploration.

Man, really reminds me of how much I want a show or comic or something of Thrawn and the Seventh fleet returning home to the main galaxy and having to deal with all that stuff.

I could also see the general lack of unity in the region limiting trade, travel, and communication, and technology in particular being something all the UR governments would try to control the spread of to keep upper hands against potential rivals, so that republic/imperial tech rarely gets far inwards.

Yeah - honestly, I could see it as just a rare example of a stable, straight hyperspace route that allows the jedi to reach the place, but them also not know any other routes out from the system and thus not knowing much of the surrounding region.

Possibly they did do some exploring, but often had other issues to deal with so it was always on the backburner, before being more or less forgotten about entirely.

(Though...wasn't there something about Lehon joining the republic and most people not believing their claims of once having ruled the galaxy)

Huh, I hadn't really considered Vong holdouts in the URs before, but in retrospect it makes a lot of sense. Also adds a nice ironic parallel to the Galactic Empire and its holdouts.

Though given how the YV were running low on troops and resources by the end, I wonder how much they could have spared for that theater.

Those are all cool ideas that would make great premises for stories. Or at least sourcebook articles.

That does make a lot of sense given Thrawn's purpose in creating it in the first place.

Yes yes, well said. That region of space definitely has a more "star treky" kind of feel (or maybe Babylon 5?)

Good point. We never heard of the imperium attacking the Chiss and it would be an odd choice after their recent defeat, but the Chiss don't strike first, expect for Thrawn.

*nods in agreement*

It is fascinating how quickly they go from superpower to irrelevant once the droid fleet they stumbled across is taken out of the picture.

Course, nothing to stop them from trying again more on their own merits later.

The federation were a democratic union of races built out of respect for each other's cultures and a desire to explore. The Chiss are a paranoid, isolationist, aristocratic ethnostate. If anything they seem more like the Romulans, if more insular and less aggressive (and even then the Romulans do usually avoid attacking first, instead tricking or provoking enemies into striking the opening blow.)

But yeah, that would be an interesting story none the less. It would certainly be fascinating to see how a politically based group like the Ascendancy dealt with the rather apolitical threats out there like the Mnngal-Mnngal.

Ironically, I could see their isolationism and refusal to strike first playing a large role in that, at least in terms of guarantying that few would have any kind of grudge against them.

It could even make them a good choice, or at least a compromise choice, in terms of acting as a mutual mediator or leader during a time of crisis.

Good points all around.

Plus, from how I remember the framing, it wasn't necessarily that the hypothetical EotH-IR was guaranteed to win or anything, but had a chance to, and would perpetuate the GCW for decades more even if the NR did eventually win. Luke and Mara really didn't want to risk that much more bloodshed, regardless of the victor.

That is also how I remember it - that because that space hadn't been explored and exploited for thousands of years like Republic space, there were a lot more untapped resources to make use of, enough to help the empire rebuild.

Which ironically is basically what the First Order did in Disney canon.

 

Aside current politics and borders in the UR, I do wonder, horrors aside, what might formerly have been in the UR before it got locked off, that got moved out of it just before the lockdown chainreaction turned space haywire. Which cultures may have been superpowers in the past akin to Gree, Kwa, etc. but in the UR?
Or how current worlds bordering the UR after the lockdown fell from trade and travel hubs central to the galaxy into disarray at its new artificial UR edge. Baatu, Jedha, Jakku, etc.

I kinda headcanon that Ssi Ruuvi are descended from an evil Kwa faction. Or are the Kwa descended from them? Where is their home before Dathomir or is Dathomir it and the Ssi Ruuvi got moved to the UR and locked up?

Also the Chiss call the "known space" galaxy "Lesser Space". Of course to them it is, but maybe there is more to that than simple species preference of their home? Lesser in what regard as they do acknowledge the superior technology Thrawn brought in from it occasionally! Is it That the UR is home to many "origins and originals" and those moved out to the lesser space before the seal off? Kinda like Europe viewed itself as the original and the "colonies" as lesser once? After all a lot started in the UR, not just Jedi and Sith.

Baatu's pretrified giant sized trees/treestumps remind me of Kashyyyk. Maybe it held Wookiees once before they moved away from the UR border? Czerka's Wookieeplanet C designation for Kashyyyk in KOTOR probably refers to nothing like that but only internal designation patterns, but always made me speculate if they come from elsewhere as Rakata made Kashyyyks trees grow large (long before the Zeffo even admired them). Or did the Rakata also enlarge Baatu's trees before they became petrified as we know them today? PS: Maybe Ewoks and Wookiees can be related even if both spread out from Baatu to Endor and Kashyyyk. Much like the Jawas and Tusken differ in size on Tatooine after the Rakata dealing with their common ancestors the Kummungah.

What similiar wonders did happen in the UR or await us still there? I want more archeological stories in them rather than wars. The wonders in addition to the horrors.

And given the subtle ties of Mggnal-Mggnal to the zombie projects of Palpatine and the Sith in Project Blackwing, and reports of it having escaped the Unknown Regions into Wild Space and the Outer Rim Territories, lets not forget that threat Legends needs to deal with as well. In fact, they were lucky it was not spreading faster already!

PS: While not UR related much, the NJO was scary as to what became of Bakura which reverse engineered Ssi Ruuvi entechment to become leading in Human Replica Droid construction AND upload of consciousness to offer people immortality as a sentient droid. Luckily Jaina did not accept their offer, but Bakura hopefully is not a trendsetter here. It may help some mortally ill people to live on, and came certainly too late for Callista Ming's poor Nichos Mar, but also this kinda feels like the proto-evolution of the sentient Droids of the Eternal Fleet and Iokath. Is Bakura headed there to turn into a sentient droid society in coming millennia? Iskalonian Renaissance as the GFFA's Borg are on the rise, just not a collective mind yet? Well, a Joiner might change that part quickly if a Killik ever came to Bakura, oops. But lets hope not, its enough nightmare fuel already that Iokath may look and act like an Abominor or evil Silentium .


Maybe Force Astrogators had a better chance of evading any horrors and monsters as they felt the dread and else those and their victims emananted? May explain why the UR never went to regular lanes and kept Forceusers around.

 

My read on the Mnngal-Mnngal is they are similar to say the Flood from Halo. Presumably they become an unstoppable menace once they pass a certain threshold. Hence the Celestials basically walled off the western half of the galaxy as a containment mechanism.

Or maybe that’s not the case but it’s something the Celestials at least feared would happen. Because clearly you don’t alter the very fabric of galactic space in this way unless you really want to forestall a truly awful threat.