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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Sequel to the Sequel trilogy coming?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by chris hayes, Feb 12, 2022.

  1. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I've shown in the past that it's an entirely different location. Not just ... building.

    And retcon doesn't mean, deletion. It means what it means. Mando is already retconning elements of the story as presented in the ST, particularly TLJ. A small one. But a retcon nonetheless.

    And retcons have occurred in SW since 1980. They will continue to happen. To think that current and future creators wont's retcon other elements, or that the ST is somehow sacred and isn't going to be retconned is the oddity. The ST retcon itself. Expect more it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
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  2. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    The early stages of the Academy in TBoBF is supposed to be the same Academy shown in the TLJ flashbacks, just look it up, it’s been confirmed.

    It looks different because it’s still in an early stage and there are more trees around it.
     
  3. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    The book of Boba had a flashback to Boba on Geonosis and the background isn't the same as in episode 2. Even know its replicating the exact shot from episode 2. The droids are in different places and there is one of the creatures missing. But i don't think that's meant to be a retcon. i ain't sure why they couldn't replicate the episode 2 background exactly, but hey.

    In comparison, Lukes school is in a fairly accurate location. if it was on a snow planet or a beach, then we could talk.

    But i do agree, minor retcons will probably happen. I just don't think they will be out to intentionally retcon things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
  4. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah, it’s the same academy, and there’s no real debate on that from LFL.

    …But it is a different Luke in substance, portrayal, maturity, and characterization, even if LFL will likely try to argue it’s just time differences, and Grogu actually being trained immediately makes him more a legacy of Luke than Rey is, full stop.

    The Luke of TLJ cannot be argued to emerge from this matured character in The Mandalorian anymore than he could from ROTJ - it’s strictly a declaration of authorial fiat that doesn’t connect to people anywhere near as much as LFL wants it to.

    The ST’s already been largely usurped as the “next chapter” of Star Wars by The Mandalorian because that series has no philosophical connection to TLJ, the rotten heart of the ST.

    Any sequel to the ST will benefit from the same strategy that The Mandalorian is using - effectively revoking and rejecting the lessons, characterization choices, and priorities of TLJ.

    We’re more likely to see a sequel to the ST if it also shows that Luke was actually a good teacher, also rejects the idea that sad, self-centered introverts should be the main appeal, and emphasizes family.
     
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  5. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2019
    I want to agree with you, but just to play Devil's Advocate, how else were they supposed to portray Luke in The Mandalorian? Luke doesn't become TLJ!Luke until Kylo Ren destroys his academy and kills his students. According to the trajectory set up in TLJ, in the timeframe of The Mandalorian, Luke is on the road to becoming even more of a legend than he already is. He's supposed to have it all together and be a wise, benevolent Jedi at this point in the story.

    I do agree that I have a very hard time buying that the Luke we see in Mando becomes the Luke we see in TLJ, but as you said, that's nothing new. I feel the same way about RotJ Luke.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
  6. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    You’re right - I’m mostly using hyperbole to ridicule TLJ as having made a worthless OOT version of Luke, even though ostensibly TLJ is supposed to give him some “good old days” before he becomes a self-centered coward.

    My only real counter to that point is that no one’s going to actually want to set-up, foreshadow, or portray Luke in a way where that TLJ story is going to happen - at least not if they want the character to be useful, enjoyable, and profitable, and at least not until the plague that is Ben Solo shows up.

    And a possible, even maybe likely, consequence of that, could and arguably should be making TLJ a sore thumb anomaly sticking out when it comes to Luke after ROTJ, one that doesn’t fit with consistently more mature and selfless behavior that Luke should display instead. Rather than accommodating TLJ, LFL should look to “outmaneuver” it - which they’ve already somewhat done with Grogu.

    The only thin barrier protecting TLJ’s idea of Luke as an abysmal failure of a Jedi teacher right now is some “Rules Lawyering” where Grogu isn’t technically a Jedi because he chose to return to Din - and I get that there are people who, for various, not-always-TLJ-related reasons, desperately want that to mean that Grogu’s going to spend his 800+ years long life not being a Jedi… but it’s going to happen at some point. It’s inevitable.

    And it also already happened with Leia in TROS.

    …And it *should* be inevitable to have Luke have other students who survive and graduate from his tutelage before TLJ, until eventually, when some kid wants to see the next Luke story after ROTJ, they have a story that completely contradicts TLJ’s ethos and poisonous portrayal of Luke.
     
  7. Jedi Master Frizzy

    Jedi Master Frizzy Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I can understand fans on Luke and TLJ.
     
  8. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Grogu doesn't count really. He chose to be with Din. Which means he is accepting a life of attachment and chances are to be a Mandalorian. Just because he has force powers which according to Ahsoka may just fade over time, doesnt mean he has to be a jedi.

    Now that doesnt mean Luke doesnt have students that survived. Star wars has found loop holes to keep ahsoka and ezra alive so why not? Star wars managed to give anakin an apprentice that didnt exist in the movies, so who knows what happens in the years we dont see but probably one day will.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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  9. Jedi Master Frizzy

    Jedi Master Frizzy Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Maybe Jacen Syndulla was one of the students and survived.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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  10. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    ...and becomes Darth Caedus [face_batting]
     
  11. Jedi Master Frizzy

    Jedi Master Frizzy Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Rey fights her legends brother.;)
     
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  12. Sarge

    Sarge Wacky Wednesday winner! star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Hard disagree. Luke had decades of life in that period that we know nothing about. If things went badly enough, which it seems they did, if Luke's attempts to make things better led to making things worse due to a long stream of rotten luck, his optimism could erode away, leaving him feeling convinced that the galaxy was better off without him. I don't like that story, but it's conceivable.
     
  13. Reepicheep775

    Reepicheep775 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2019
    You might be able to convince me that RotJ Luke turned into TLJ Luke given enough context and character development (the backstory in TLJ wasn't enough). The thing is I don't want to be convinced. If we ever get a movie or show that bridges the gap between those two versions of the character, that might be the first Star Wars thing I don't watch. [face_not_talking]
     
  14. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Really all you need to know is people change as they get older. when you are young you set your sights on the world, and as you get older you learn what it really has. Older Luke was likely never gonna be like younger Luke. Its not about 1 single thing, its about everything. life experiences and heavy responsibility.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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  15. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    It's not just that things went epically bad. It's that the Luke who made those mistakes in between moves, seems completely removed from the character we last see in EP 6. It's that that character then goes on to be an even more completely different character, one who seemingly forgets all his old lessons, his successes, and his failures. It's that the character who finally figures out what his real mistakes were, isn't because of his failures, which is supposed to be our greatest teacher in life, but because Yoda has to spell it out for him. It's that his solution to fix things, is to show the galaxy the legend once more, hide his true failed self to Kylo, when that was the literal thing Yoda tells him not to do. All of it is just shoddy writing.

    There's now a major missing piece to Luke's story, once that will we never get in Saga form. And it's not that Luke couldn't fail at something. Hell, failing at teaching could be a great story to see unfold. But Luke wasn't just bad at teaching, he was bad at all the things that made him Luke in the first place. EP6 Luke would have told Ben about the dark side in himself. EP 6 Luke would have told him about Anakin. EP 6 Luke would have continued on after failing. EP 6 Luke wouldn't believe for one moment that the Jedi are responsible for the Sith, even if he failed Ben.

    In the end TLJ Luke just doesn't make sense. Namely because we can't see how EP 6 Luke got there. And a simple flashback isn't enough.

    Older Luke learned the wrong damn lesson. Young Luke was more correct about life than Cynical TLJ Luke ever was.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
  16. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    Yep, but it seems some fans are weirdly expecting the Mandoverse to eventually retcon for good the ST.

    Which is a silly idea.
     
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  17. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Probably because being a jedi is actually tough.

    I mean the idea that Luke managed to not be pushed to the dark side doesn't mean he is immune now. that's wrong logic. Life doesn't work that way. He made the right choice at the right time, but the lesson he learnt wasn't that the jedi were wrong for the rules they needed to set or that making the right choice is actually easy when you are in a role of huge responsibility.

    Even the jedi in the PT often seemed Cynical, But that was likely more based on life events they learnt from. if you jump into something you are often left in a mess until you build boundaries to stabilise things.

    Yeah it doesn't make sense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
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  18. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    And TLJ didn't even remotely present that the jedi were wrong for the rules they needed to set.
     
  19. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Because they were not.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I am fine with a more cynical Luke as he aged. In fact less idealistic than OT Luke is an improvement if done well.

    What I was not fine with in TLJ was the absurd and frankly insulting notion that we are supposed to agree with Luke when he believes that Kylo’s fall was his fault.
     
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  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    The problem, in terms of retroffiting or establishing Luke's 'decline' (prior to the ST) in any new live action content, is that I'm not sure they'll ever be the appetite for it... be it on the side of audiences or filmmakers/showrunners. Focusing on Luke's decline, even if handled well, only works to further seperate the Luke of the OT from the Luke of the ST... and I think that would marginalise fans further.

    So I agree that it's certainly conceivable that Luke's decline could feature in a new TV show/film... but I'm not sure it fixes anything in the films... or the characters legacy. Indeed, it would probably heighten the issues... (and this is tied into Luke's poor depiction post his talk with Yoda in TLJ). For this reason, I think DLF will work to reestablish the depiction of Luke from the OT e.g. hope, optimism etc. in new content, rather than focus on why he became disillusioned etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
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  22. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    This only holds true if you simply do not believe that characters can regress, but are rather, linear-progressing automatons that simplistically march forward to the sound of the writer's pen. And I say this as someone who does not enjoy the ST.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
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  23. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Some things just don't go away. Like if you took take ROTJ as face value and you automatically assume it puts the Empire to bed and there is peace!. But the Mandalorian show looks at it through the idea that there would be remains still fighting back. Which is not down to the ST, they are just looking at it through what would probably happen. It wouldn't just go away. They also add a mixed impact on the results of the empire being gone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
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  24. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I don't think Luke's ST characterization is merely a regression. If that were the case then TLJ Luke would share similarities with some earlier, nonmatured, former version of himself that he's regressed towards. The whiny teenager in ANH before he sets out on his adventure. And although I've argued in the past that TLJ Luke seems to have forgotten everything he ever learned in his OT arc, and not in the good Yoda way, this isn't the case either.

    Luke is in TLJ is basically Opposite Luke. For reasons that are vague. Oh, he failed one time. Got it. Now he's the opposite. Like the flick of switch, like turning off the force, he just becomes a new character.

    TLJ presents Luke as mature and wisened. Gone is the youthful optimism and hope. In its place is aged cynicism and despair. As if the writer didn't really want to work out how Luke's character would evolve over time, into a 50+ year old Jedi Master who failed big time, and just went "It's Opposite Day" on his characterization. Brilliant. And then by the end of the movie, bonk, Luke is back. Kinda. It's still not a Luke that feels connected to EP 6, or where this character could have gone in 30 years, but the dial is rotated somewhat back to something familiar.

    I don't think Luke's characterization is anywhere near realistic. It's not how people change, or wait...don't change. (I can't tell what RJ's final point on that is.) Something realistic would be for Luke to fail, feel badly about it, and then figure out a way to fix his mistakes. Luke crawling away to have a pity party for himself for 6 years, and make up a whole host of dumb reasons why he has to stay away, and why the Jedi need to end, is not ... an evolution of character. It's characterization for the sake of a change in the story.
     
  25. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Thats probably a little too real in some cases tbh.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
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