Lit Should Jedi serve a government, or be independent from any government to serve all life?

Should Jedi serve a government (like the Galactic Republic, or other "rightful" governments whether it be one or multiple), or be independent from any government to serve all life?

(especially considering what we've learned and explored in the books/comics/shows/video-games, both Legends and New EU)

 

Jedi should be free of any government to serve whomever they choose. Tying the Jedi to a central regime has hamstrung them in the past. However, at the same time, said Jedi must also be accountable for their actions in that government jurisdiction. The Jedi cannot be above the law and order they claim to serve.

 

They cannot be independent from a just government, because then they would have zero authority to act as peacekeepers and/or serve all life.

They shouldn't serve the whims of any leader currently in office, but instead be a guardian of the democratic system itself.

 

What if the government is unjust, like Palpatine’s Republic by the end of the Clone Wars? Or they have brutal slavery/segregation/discrimination?

The democratic system has a lot more nuance that it’s hard to define what it should be, I mean just look at the real-life differences between the US, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Israel, India, South Africa and see both the differences and the flaws in each.

Also, do they need “authority” to act as peacekeepers? That feels like a slippery slope.

They should be like knights errant, just wandering do-gooders who adapt to wherever they are to do what should be done. Sometimes it could be fully cooperating with the legal authorities. Sometimes it might be taking justice into their own hands, like in superhero stories. Sometimes it might be flatly opposing the government on some issues.

Also, who determines what a “just” government is? And since when has any government regularly and consistently prioritized “all life” (sentient, both citizen and immigrant and foreigner, as well as creatures/plants/fungi) over its national-interests?

 

Governments can choose to give them authority despite not associating with them. It's even better as they would do it out of respect and trust, not because the Jedi are bound to uphold their regime.

 

I think it'd be most interesting if the Jedi are split on this, so some/one group attach themselves to the Republic just like the old Order did while others believe it was a mistake to be so attached and so, they remain an independent group that still aids the Republic, but has no greater loyalty to it than they do other non-Republic worlds. They are requested to help by various groups, organizartions, planets and individuals as neutral parties who negotiate, settle matters and defend people.

There's a lot of rooms for fun adventures and interesting moral dilemmas, especially since they don't have authority beyond what is granted them by the individual situation and their own reputation.

 

I guess at the time of the Ruusan Reformation, the Republic was a pretty good government and the Jedi probably didn't see any reason not to bind themselves to it. Then over the centuries, that habit became hard to shake.

In the NJO, Luke decided he wanted the creation of a Jedi council accountable to the government, lest they be seen as rogue vigilantes.

 

I honestly think it doesn't have to be either or.
I think the Jedi can do a lot of good by cooperating with the Republic, and the people they represent in an official capacity, but not necessarily in a subservient fashion, and certainly not blindly.

 

It is easy to say something flowery like "The jedi should be independent of any government to serve all life" or something, but what the frell does that actually mean?

That jedi should be vigilantes? That they should do whatever they feel like as long they can rationalize it with the vague directions of the force? That they are above the law, unaccountable to anyone for their actions and the consequences of their mistakes?

And why do jedi, of all the citizens born in the republic, alone get to decide to be "independent" and ignore the government? Does being born force sensitive elevate them above the plebs who have to obey the law?

The whole thing smacks of Sith thinking to me - even more than the passion and the darkness, the sith are all about the idea that they are better than other people because of their force powers and can do what they want.
The jedi, in contrast, are defined more by humility: that they don't hold themselves as better than others, and believe fundamentally that everyone is better off when they are working together.

Now obviously if the government becomes tyrannical, the jedi should oppose it - but that is true of non-jedi as well. And that kind of political involvement is the opposite of the kind of strident, apathetic political neutrality I see people advocate.

At this point I have to point to this essay with some fascinating insights into how the jedi, the republic, and the relationship between the two was constructed behind the scenes:
https://writerbuddha.tumblr.com/ post/669678438413746176/the-jedi-order-and-the-republic
In particular I find it interesting that the Republic is taken as the political manifestation of symbiosis the same way the force is the spiritual manifestation of symbiosis - and, as a consequence, they influence one another: as long as the republic is healthy the force remains in balance, but its decline throws things out of balance, and in turn the growing darkness influences people towards greed, ambition, and/or apathy and makes it harder for the jedi to do their jobs.

(said essay also points out that the jedi do actually have a lot of leeway in their relationship with the republic. It is hard to imagine them getting a better deal, all things considered)

Also relevant is this quote:

So yeah, as much as the separatists had "a point" I don't think they were actually supposed to be considered entirely right or the real good guys or anything, similarly I don't think the idea for the audience to come away with a message of "it was wrong for the jedi to work with the republic, they should all just be wandering superheroes." Especially since, while it is easy to forget since star wars is an action franchise, fighting is a secondary or even tertiary job for the jedi, and they are diplomats first and foremost...a job that is notably hard to do without some kind of official status to back you up and make it so you can give meaningful promises to end conflicts.

But yeah, death of the author and all that. Still, it is an interesting alternative perspective to consider if nothing else. And personally the past decade or so has made me think a lot about how desirable or even possible it is to be - it can be so easy to think of politics as petty and meaningless, but it effects so many lives in so many ways it seems impossible to do real good without engaging in it.

Of course, this is all the philosophical side of things. On the practical level, I just don't think the jedi can do that much good without government backing. And to that end I point to two stories, one from legends and one from new canon.

In the legends story Jedi Quest - at least the comic version I haven't read the original book - we get to see the jedi conduct an anti-slavery operation on Nar Shadda. Anakin just wants to go in lightsabers blazing to rescue the slaves, but Obi-Wan points out that would likely just result in him and a lot of slaves dying, or even if it worked the freed slaves would just be replaced with new captives. In contrast, the jedi plan of bringing in a republic corporation to buy out the slave factory and replace the slaves with free workers - both by republic law and a jedi advisor pointing out to the company's board that free workers are much more efficient - deals with the issue on a systematic level.

Meanwhile in canon we have the Obi-Wan and Annakin comics, where the titular heroes find that they cannot end a planetary civil war themselves, despite all their wisdom and martial skill, but are able to accomplish something by calling in the Republic and using its resources to both stop the fighting and rebuild the ravaged world. It isn't an entirely rosy picture - the only way Obi-Wan was able to get the Republic to act in time was by lying that the planet had valuable resources - but he explicitly points out that there are many things the jedi can do only because they are part of the republic .

Now, in contrast, the Yoda comic does have the titular character solve a planetary civil war more or less by himself - or, well, guides the local population to the mindset they need to solve it themselves - but it does take many years with some significant setbacks, so it shows things are more complicated than the "swoop in, kill the right bad guy and leave" approach of the classic wandering hero archetype. Plus, Yoda at the end does mention talking to a Republic environmental team to look into the cause of the famine that started the war in the first place.

So, in contrast to the standard opinion that the jedi were brought low by being too tied to politics, I have begun to think that perhaps the issue was that they weren't involved in republic politics enough - that they took the corruption of the late republic as some inevitable fact of life and an excuse to act superior to politicians rather than actually deal with the issue before it was too late. That they dismissed honest senators like Padme or Bail as no different than people like Orn Free Ta or Lott Dod and didn't try to back the honest senators efforts to slow or reverse the damage that had been done. That they were too neutral in a battle for the very heart and soul of the republic.

 

The Jedi Knights are Guardians of Peace and Justice. And in order to do that they need to be allied with a Democratic government.

 

Why?

Also, what if the galaxy is split between multiple good republics, and there's tension or even war breaking out between them?

Nothing is stopping other citizens from trying to ignore their governments too.

I'm not saying special status, I'm saying they should not swear obedience/service to any government. They should not be their police, or their military, or even their official diplomats.

If a Jedi wants to do that, they can individually sign up for any of those things, like how Luke was just another rebel. @MercenaryAce

They should try to respect rules and laws when they are just, it shouldn't be the first instinct to go vigilante, but it sometimes needs to happen. Swearing an oath to serve fuzzies it up, especially when the government is making gray decisions if not outright evil, and ordering the Jedi to carry out a will influenced by corruption. The Jedi shouldn't be another bureaucratic piece of any government.

And if they go against the government and they're caught, they're caught just like anyone else. But they'd probably be less likely to be caught, especially if they're careful and using the Force, or in the fringes of society or on a backwater world.


Jedi who try to be part of government, and ultimately decide what government is best for everyone, aren't that different from the Sith...

 

That's close to the way Luke describes things working in the Black Fleet Crisis books:


“I’m trying to understand,” Akanah said. “I want to know what your Jedi mean to the New Republic, and what the New Republic means to you. Are you training the Jedi Knights to be Coruscant’s warrior elite? What are you willing to do when the commander-in-chief calls on you?”
“That isn’t the way it works,” Luke said. “Leia doesn’t give orders to the Jedi. She can ask us for help—one of us or all of us—but we can refuse. And sometimes do.”
“But the Republic supports your academy. You had a military spacecraft in your hangar. Can you afford to offend them?”
“The Jedi aren’t mercenaries,” Luke said, an edge in his voice. “When we fight, it’s an individual choice—and it’s in defense of the principles of our creed. Coruscant supports the academy because the memory of the Jedi is a powerful force for stability. Our presence is what they want most.”
“That’s the part of the tradition that concerns me,” said Akanah. “The guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for a thousand generations, or so the legend has it. But if you cannot have both peace and justice, which will you choose?”
“Which would you have me choose?”
"I would choose for you to keep your great gifts beyond the reach of politicians and generals,” she said. “For you to owe them no debts, and take on no causes—”
“I’ve been careful to protect our independence,” said Luke. “Despite appearances.”
“You aren’t sworn to uphold the government on Coruscant? You’ve taken no oaths of allegiance?”
“No. Only those few who’ve chosen to serve in the Fleet, or the ministries. It’s not forbidden. But it’s not common. The Jedi aren’t the Republican Guard. And never will be.”

 

ngl that kinda sounds like authoritarian propaganda lmao

 

They should be allied to the main government. But an ally is also independent. They should work with, but not for the government.

 

I really need to read the Black Fleet Crisis at some point. For so many reasons, this just being one of many, it seems so thoughtful and innovative in a way that has aged really well.

 

A Jedi Order independent of the Republic but allied with them is the Best like they were during the High Republic era.

 

Agree with the first part. But not the second. They don't seem 'allied' with the Republic during the HR but rather a part of it. I think they lack an indepent power base, like Ossus or Tython, during the Old Republic Era.

 

While I voted for government aligned, and stand by that vote, I think there is a lot of healthy wiggle room between total independence and complete subservience. The Jedi and the Sith both (in theory anyways) claim to desire to bring some degree of order to the galaxy. The Sith method is top down. We know what is best, and will enforce our idea at sword point. Obey or else.

The Jedi method is bottom up. Cooperate with local authorities. Try to talk it out. Fight if you have to, but only apply as much force as needed in a proportionate manner. Try to resolve the problem and thereby stabilize social cohesion by reason and example. This is the harder method, but ultimately yields the greater results in terms of long term stability. The top down method the Sith utilize treats all problems like a hammer. Hitting those below you arbitrarily as the Sith does breeds resentments, which leads to greater problems down the line.

The Jedi method calms and resolves the problem. But the Jedi method only works if the Jedi are treated as a legitimate authority. Reputation alone isn't enough. They have to be recognized as legitimate enforcers of justice who are fair and impartial.

In real life I am a very firm believer in civilian command and legislative oversight. It would be nice if we could trust authorities like the Jedi to operate independently. And most of them can indeed be expected to do their jobs in an ethical manner. But the honor system doesn't work here.

At the risk of coming across as a generic "both sides have a point" centrist, the two extremes are pretty undesirable.

We saw in the NJO era that individual Knights like Wurth Skidder were actually inadvertently flaming tensions by engaging in vigilante activity that was meant to help, but had unintentional long term negative effects. Now, ideally the Jedi would individually be wise enough to think through their actions, but sometimes its easy to miss the forest for the trees. Luke himself reestablished the Council largely because his original plan for the Jedi to operate more loosely just wasn't panning out.

The most extreme example of Jedi operating independently was the Jedi Lords, who took it upon themselves to divide up the galaxy after local authorities failed during the New Sith Wars. In universe, this era is referred to as a galactic dark age. It is the most dangerous example of independent operation I can think of, as it constitutes a fundamental betrayal of Jedi principles. Jedi are meant to serve, not rule.

On the other hand, total subservience played a key roll in the calcification the Order underwent in the last century or so of the Old Republic. Examples like the Battle of Galidraan and the ongoing issues of slavery just beyond the Republic's borders show that the Jedi's willingness to take direction from the politicians was allowing injustice to slide by when it occurred out of sight.

The High Republic era Jedi Order seemed to have the right balance between independence and cooperation via the relationship between the Jedi Council and the Wayseekers. The bulk of the Order cooperated with the Republic authorities through the Council's authority and direction. But certain Knights and Masters were permitted to become Wayseekers and go where they felt they were needed to solve problems that otherwise might slip through the cracks. It's only when the Wayseekers were phased out and the Council started enforcing a stricter demand for obedience in the rank and file that we saw the Jedi slide into the more subservient role that led to their decay.

 

In Light of The Jedi, one Admiral mentions of the allied Republic and Jedi Order. The Jedi not apart of the Republic and could refuse them. And During High Republic, they all of their temples running. Corucant temple just their main one. But had hundreds of temples active.

 

I'd be interested in a storyline depicting the Jedi in the early days and a proto-Republic. I could see it being a loose association of worlds or systems that is largely powerless to restrain it's larger more powerful members and their allies(*cough*UN*cough*) and the Jedi emerge as an independent diplomatic and spiritual influence that helps bring peace to a contentious planet or system that had been at odds for a long time and all prior attempts are peaceful resolution were largely undermined by a big power's interests on one side of the conflict.

It could even serve as a flashpoint within the fledgling Jedi Order itself by having certain knights that originated from different side of the conflict. Which ends up precipitating their attachment rules. Jedi needing to be truly neutral servants of all and not bringing cultural or religious biases into such situations.

*edit* I didn't vote because I'm genuinely unsure of what my answer is.

 

I think allied is fine, but still independent so they can refuse, or just isolate from or outright oppose the Republic of it ever becomes too corrupt or tyrannical (or if the Galaxy splits, like if the CIS was free from mega-corporate and Sith influence, and controlled half the galaxy with a peace treaty with the Republic… or if the Galaxy became dozens/hundreds of independent republics and kingdoms - the Jedi should be able to ally and support all that are good).

 

Part of the problem here is the Jedi need the imprimatur of legitimacy a government brings. Jedi going and trying to solve disputes without government guarantees behind them will be much less effective. People won't respect them, and either they'll be the recipient of more violence-or they'll simply be ignored and have to use violence to impose peace.

Also, resources-ships, money, facilities, technology. Jedi don't need a government to procure these things but having ties to a government means access to them is much easier and cheaper.

Jedi also can't "defend the republic" or "galactic civilization" or what have you without cooperating with legitimate authorities. That means working with police, security services and the military. And once you start doing that, their affairs become your problem. Hence the Jedi being forced to participate in wars or being caught in impossible dilemmas in cases where there isn't a clear right and wrong or the Republic is in the wrong.

I think working with a government all these risks considered makes the Jedi definitely more effective at their stated roles. At the same time, its not for every Jedi and perhaps there should be a temple or a "non government aligned" department within the order that can retreat for the purpose of meditation, study and training without needing to answer the government's calls.

People always bring this up, and forget the fact the Republic was gone outside the core. The Jedi weren't subverting Republic administration, they were providing safety and stability to people who needed those things in the face of a galactic apocalypse and utter breakdown of the Republic itself. The Jedi lords were necessary for the scale of the crisis at the time, and they all gave up their power at the end of the war.

 

I think in the government or not debate, it is interesting to look at the Jedi after ROTJ:

Initially they serve a government due to family ties, good relations and funding since the Rebellion. The government is even when problematic, not anti-Jedi and Jedi are free to not be used as government agents as in the old Republic despite funding. It is a mutual respect deal with rather aligning goals that worked well and even survived miracolously some failed Jedi students going on a rampage (luckily due to those being directed mostly at the governments imperial enemies). But not all failures were like that and some hurt the New Republic, too, quite some leading to growing anti Jedi sentiment.
And that is the crux, Jedi-Government alliances work only if they have shared goals and no failures that can hurt the other. But as fluctuating as politics are, these are bound to change. As democratically all parties, even the anti-Jedi ones, need to be heard and get their temporal reigns from time to time, which may lead to repercussions for the Jedi, limitations or even worse. That is when the mutual deal breaks down.

In the NJO Luke pronounced Tenel Ka a perfect Jedi, yet at the same time condemned her to choose between being a ruler or a Jedi forcing her out of the order ultimately. Well that sounds to me like Qui Gon Jinn.. when the Jedi Order alienates or excommunicates its most perfect examples of being a Jedi, what then is left? We saw what was left later in LOTF/FOTJ...

A Jedi can balance being a ruler and a Jedi, the past had many examples of Jedi stewards, Lords, sector or system or planet or village presiding ones that ruled just, guided by the Force. Of course that has the danger of corruption, the dark side, but so has any politician really... maybe with less mayhem if falling, but yeah. And Legacy comics showed us a checks and balances system for an Imperial Jedi Ruler, aka Felperor, with a roundtable of Knights that should watch if their leader is corrupted or falling to the Dark Side with a vow to act should he stray from the Force's will and path.

Now Jedi on their own... following the Force and its will like Wayseekers rather than a Council that not always may be in line with the Force, despite trying. That is not much different, if a Council or one Ruler, with checks that either remain in service to the Force, can work. But despite all security measures, also can fail.

There is no perfect way, as history is cyclic and all rises and perishes again occasionally. Nothing lasts forever as the perfect solution.

Now as others already noted, Jedi serve the Force, they hold certain ideals as holy and defendeable, like basic rights and peace, harmony, preserving life, etc. Usually governments align with that, yet vary in the degree of what measures they deem fit to either defend it, or enforce it or even force it upon others through missionary work.

The difficulty lies in adequate measure. As some see the goal as more important than the path to it. Others respect the path, even if it leads to or through darkness but achieves thus a longer lasting solution thereafter. But such patience as even few Jedi only showed during the Dark Times, a government could not support or sell to its population. And some paths cannot be undertaken as an order or group, but individually only when each one is right and ready for it.

It's a bit complicated, like the relationship of church and king in past times. The Church was independent, yet required kings to go along and not purge them from their land, allow worship, places for it and needed government allowance to teach values and else that would appease the populace and make it governeable. The kings liked the legitimacy of godly powers enthroning them despite often intrigue and warfare leading to them just taking a throne.. and retroactively legitimizing it via the church to return to normalcy.

The Jedi are amongst all religions and Force groups of Jedha, a moral compass. One the morally just politicians seek advice and help from, yet the ones feeling threatened to be exposed by them, rather commanding them around and keeping them at a distance. And like in ancient times here, the lines sometimes blurred with Jedi taking on missionary work and lording over new territories before full government control is established. Jedi mediators being tricked into becoming warriors for the government. Or even the other way around, government people joining the Jedi ranks, training and using the legitimacy and Force for their ends so long not exposed to not follow its will.

In the end, it is down to personal alignment. If all or enough people are aligned with symbiosis and harmony, any system they choose can work, be that a monarchy (Arthurian romantic ideal) or a democracy or else. If enough people though turn from that, any system no matter how good or well protected will fail.

 

My vision of Jedi back when I had only seen the OT was that they were, like, nomadic monks who basically did whatever they wanted as individuals so long as they stayed away from the Dark Side of the Force. Obi-Wan Kenobi served King Organa not because he was assigned there by some council of Jedi in a tower in the capital, but because that's how he found stability or whatever.